F Type R, exhaust noise and pops.
 

Just got the car (2015 F Type R coupe) back from the dealer, they have updated the PCM CPLA 12B684 YF and cleared codes. The car is muted, almost all of the pops and crackling gone. They did try to run the software JTB495 to correct the issue as but the car would not accept the software, the reading was all softwares and up to date. According to the dealer all the new F Type Rs with 2017 PCM update have a more muted exhaust noise as required by federal law (BS).
I am going back there tomorrow to the dealer, the dealer is going to run the new software on a brand new new 2017 F type R and we will compare the exhaust pops and crackling to find out if the issues is related to the new software or could it be faulty valves, diffusers, etc
Any advice much appreciate. Has anyone else had a similar issue lately?

Total BS. The federal standard for noise is a very specific, very defeatable test. It's a wide open throttle test along a straight line course with microphones positioned an exact distance away from the vehicle. Many manufactures set up a hole in their engine calibrations that only can be triggered while doing the specific sequence of events required for the test; so vehicles that easily break the db requirement can pass by just cutting power significantly and thus reducing noise.

This is an internally validated test, and you only have to pass once, so really the likelihood of Jaguar cutting down on pops for this is basically zero. Especially since decel isn't even measured in the test.

I really do doubt its anything to do with a new PCM update as this is identical to what happened to my car in early 2016 after the K309 PCM update.

It may be that your VIN falls just outside of the JTB495 specified range, the computer is saying no update required because of this - however your car is still impacted.

Hope you can get it sorted out, drove me nuts for ages with the dealer not believing there was anything wrong with the car, telling me I was imagining it up until the point Jaguar released the update - then all of a sudden the dealer believed me. If it wasn't fixed I probably would have ended up selling the car as hated the quieter soundtrack.

As you know, I was shoveled the same BS from my dealer regarding my '17R--their email response below--although I find it interesting they told you the same thing about MY'17 Rs, hmmm...:
I heard back from the Jaguar engineers today. You were 100% correct when you stated that your 2016 was louder than your 2017, unfortunately it was done on purpose. So the engineer stated that starting in 2017, they tuned down the exhaust due to the majority of people stated that the vehicle was too loud. So Jaguar created a ECM software update that only allowed the one valve to move fully open and the other to only open partially to turn down the noise level. So the people on the forums who are getting their mufflers replaced will actually have the same issue because they already have updated their software. If you would have never looked down the tailpipe then I would have probably never have known this as well, so thank you. Let me know if you have any more questions or concerns. Have a great day.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...design-187697/

Following my previous post,F Type R, exhaust noise and pops- I called Jag CRC once more. They confirmed that the new software update will cause exhaust noise reduction. However I also found out that there is a patch to correct the issue for 2014/15 models (don't know the deals of the patch yet). They asked me to go back to the dealer and ask for the patch, I explained to them that the dealer doesn't have the patch available. This resulted in CRC creating a case #6******. They asked me to make an appointment with the dealer, once the appointment is confirmed call the CRC and provide them with date and time of the appointment. On the day of the appointment CRC will provide the dealer with the necessary software patch to correct the issue. Let's see if it works!

I would have guessed the 'patch' is the JTB495 that your dealer couldn't load. My invoice shows they did K309B, with no JTB495. May depend on the SDD version which they do.

I am almost certain the patch will be the same one that was applied - and fixed - my car.

Am guessing it’s a software compliance thing - update process checks the VIN number for the car, VIN isn’t in the specified range for the patch therefore patch doesn’t apply. Will probably need to be manually overridden somehow, or Jaguar will need to extend the VIN range for the software update compliance check.

Reason I say this - when the dealer applied mine I asked for more details on what the patch does - the tech admitted he had no idea, all he does is attach the SDD to the car and it tells him what software needs applying - he then starts the process and leaves it for a few hours until it’s complete. Pretty much all automated and scripted with little to no ability for the human to influence the process.

+1. Ask the dealer what SDD version they have. It has to be 145.7 or higher for them to apply JTB00495.

its my understanding california screwed us. I'm going through the same issue and have been speaking with Jag North America extensively on this. Jag makes all their cars 50 state legal, and they adjusted things to meet CARB regulations.

So pissed about this. I bought a velocity exhaust system to see if I can manage, because I'm seriously considering selling the car.

I still don’t believe it. I have read in here the explanation given that the new software update somehow controls the exhaust valves leaving one open and one half closed. Not sure how that’s possible as vacccum controls the valve operation - so there is either vaccum or not and the valve will either open or not accordingly. I don’t believe that software can directly influence the degree of opening of the valve. And one valve that is half open wouldn’t eradicate all pops and cracks either.

I also read that anyone getting a new muffler would suffer with this. My muffler was replaced 2 months ago with no difference to pops and cracks - of which I get a lot.

I still believe that somehow something has gone wrong with the software version loaded onto the cars being affected - and the cars need to be flashed with the correct software version. Something is being missed somewhere by JLR and / or the dealer if they say a software update isn’t necessary.

Can someone confirm that this is happening to the SVR trim also?

My understanding is the butterfly type valve in the muffler (silencer) is operated in one direction by a spring and in the other by vacuum controlled by a solenoid. This mechanism controls whether the exhaust is loud or quiet, relatively speaking.
I believe the pops and bangs occur on the overun, particularly when rapid lift off after moderate to high throttle, this is caused by the usual fuel injection cutoff on overrun being delayed and the ignition timing being briefly retarded resulting in ignition whilst the exhaust valve is opening .

SVR has a different exhaust system therefore it is not an equal comparison to R. If I were you, I would go to my local Jag dealership and have them start up a SVR. Make sure you ask them whether or not all of softwares are up to date, re the most recent K309. They can check it by running the car key through their system.

I dropped the car off at the local dealership this morning. I managed to have the CRC provide my dealership with the new patch that hopefully will correct the issue, apparently there is new patch to correct the noise reduction on 2014/2015s in North America. I will post the patch number later today.

I happen to agree with you, something is wrong here. Mine is going back in on Tuesday. Supposedly tech and engineering are going to be involved. My car even loses the crack on shift during acceleration.

Pretty much identical to what happened to my car in early 2016 after K309 - lost almost all cracks and pops, had to be very aggressive with the throttle - high revs and snap lift off to provoke a couple of cracks.

After the patch it was back to its original glory - sounds like the Fourth of July throughout the entire rev range without any provocation

Dealership just called. The car doesn’t accept the new software! So CRC has got the Jag engineers involved now. The saga goes on...

Hope you get it fixed. My car has enough pops and crackles for the both of us.

It was my Thread regarding the dealer BS about 2017MY R having updated software to control the individual exhaust valves b/c "people were complaining the car was too loud"--lol! https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...design-187697/

As others have commented, this just cannot be true and makes no sense.

What I was complaining about with my car was probably imaginary. I was comparing my brand new '17R--with an exhaust that still needed time to break in and driving it in a reserved manner during the break in period--to my '16 R. The K309 software update did not apply to my '17R (never had the '16R long enough for the K309 to be applied). So when I read folks having problems with their exhaust valves, I decided to check mine out. Sure enough my passenger side exhaust valve was not 100% open, but more like 80%. However, as others have commented, including Stuart at VAP, having my passenger side valve open only 80% is not going to reduce the loudness greatly enough to be noticeable. Now if only 20% were open, then sure, the noise would be reduced considerably. The valve is probably getting slightly hung up on something, and had I not looked into the exhaust pipes, I (and others) probably would not have noticed there was an issue with the valve.

The overrun and pops and crackles is a completely different matter. Now that my car has 1200+ miles, the pops/crackles are effortless. Even Ritzy confirmed in another Thread that he compared his '16R (after he had the O2 software update and resulting problems) to a '17R and the '17R produced the pops/crackles without a problem.

Those of you with 2014-2016 Rs who are having reduced pops/crackles after the K309 software update need the JTB495 patch. As others have mentioned, dealers are unaware of the issue unless your VIN pops up as needing the patch and JLR probably hasn't included all of the affected cars.

I'm picking up my 17R on Wednesday and came across this thread. The production date on this car is 9/16. That said, do "you" think that this car will need the update for the exhaust or just the break-in period to develop the desired exhaust notes?

I had K309B loaded on my car in June 2016 - that appears to have been after they fixed the issue with K309. I would *hope* the right one made it into production vehicles by then.

I think it was ek993 who guesstimated the correction for K309 occurred Summer 2016. You should be fine. My 17R production was 11/16.

For all the good these forums do (not only here but elsewhere), we all are susceptible to falling victim of "medical student's disease."

Hi All
Does anyone know how to escalate a case pass Jaguar CRC in the US? Is there a number or an email address please?
Thanks

Good luck. Worst customer service ever.

I suggest starting a new thread on that however. OEMs do read these boards, but likely won't see your concern here.

I've tried and yelled and argued, for hours, trying to get past these people. I don't think it's happening. However, I am working with a gentleman named Mike at Jag USA, I'll PM you his extension. He's been as helpful as I think he can be. You might find some value in seeing if you can have him handle your case, as he is handling mine and it's essentially the same problem.

Also, regarding the JTB000495 update that has fixed this issue for some folks, this was not possible on my car. According to mydealer, Jag even sent them a standalone version of the JTB495 patch to be applied manually and the cars software would not let it be applied.

My car is currently back at the dealer.... Jag supposedly has all the necessary folks involved. Stay tuned.

There is probably a check in the patch installation for VIN range that fails when the vehicle is outside of that range. If that is the case it would need to be re-coded by the development team.

Have you guys tried escalating to JLR in the UK? Go straight to the source of knowledge.

You're probably correct on the VIN check.

I hadn't thought of talking to U.K. jag. I assumed it was essentially the same. Will give that a try next if current attempts are unsuccessful. Good idea, thanks.

Latest communication from CRC. My CRM @ Jag is unprofessional. She has never taken my calls, only VMs. I did try to talk to someone else but apparently once you have a case manager you are stuck with he/she. This is total BS! I seriously doubt she talked to the engineers in the UK.

Hello Mr. ******,

"I wanted to follow up with you and let you know that the UK engineer is involved with this. However all the updates have been done to your vehicle. We are unable to assist any further and their are no other solutions at this time as per the carb laws."

550R - stepping back to the beginning here - which service update specifically does the service sheet show the dealer applied that originally caused the problem? I don’t think you mentioned it other than a software update was applied.

I think you should point out that the update which was explained as "to correct an error with the o2 sensors" was actually a carb emissions update and was grossly misrepresented. If all this is actually intended, I'm of the opinion our cars were modified beyond our consent.

Hi ek 993,
The story is as follows, I took the car in because the engine light came on and then went off after a couple of days. The JLR connected the car to SDD and found CODE P014A-00 O2 sensor delayed response-rich to lean bank 2 sensor.
The JLR found bulletin JTB00392NAS3 corresponding to issue and codes.
They replaced O2 sensor, updated PCM CPLA- 12B684-YF and cleared codes.

After I took the car back I noticed the exhaust pops and crackling were gone and also the car was under performing. Explain in previous threads.

I went to my local JLR and they told me to call CRC. I called CRC they told me get in touch with my JLR. They also informed me that O2 sensor or software update doesn't cause performance or exhaust issues!

Back to JLR again, they replied;

"We are going to open up a case on the car. Apparently what CRC told you is not accurate. Our foreman handed me literature from CRC. The exact words are " A change in operation of the exhaust over run 'crackle' was part of the requirement for the software release in K309. There is no option to revert the software to the previous version." Although, the K309 was performed in 2015 for your vehicle, we performed a PCM update. This is supposedly causing the drop in crackle we are experiencing.

All this info will be sent to Jaguar and we will have to wait to see what they recommend us to do. Obviously, not being able to revert back to the old software is not acceptable.

I apologize that this is turning into a lengthy process. I will update you as soon as i hear back from our foreman."


Next step CRC send them a patch JTB 495 NA, but the car refused the patch. Back to CRC, the patch didn't work, they informed me they will work with their engineers!

Last email from CRC contact today, the CSR didn't even bother to sign off on her email, totally unprofessional.

"Hello Mr.. *****

I wanted to follow up with you and let you know that the UK engineer is involved with this. However all the updates have been done to your vehicle. We are unable to assist any further and their are no other solutions at this time as per the carb laws."


Since the CRC didn't take my call or return my phone calls for the last two weeks, I decided to write to Director of Customers Service at JLR (LinkedIn) in NJ and few other people in the company and give them a window into my experience with their CSR.

At no point or time I was asked for my consent for software update by my local JLR.

Also I don't believe a word that comes out of CRC. I think I would have got a better service from anyone else in that Dept. She seemed not happy to talk about cars, issue related to cars. It was more like the computer say....blah blah. i am sure they do search on their internal system and blab anything.

I am taking the car to another dealer to see if they can solve the issue, if not, I am selling it as it drives like a basic Camera, so sluggish and lethargic!

I will see if my local garage would smog test it, even though it doesn't need it, I think something fishy is going on here!

I totally agree, we didn't give consent and ours cars did not need the update for another 4 years per CA laws. No SMOG test required for 4 years.

Ok that is the part number of the PCM. They don't state what they have updated it with though - demand they tell you this.

If it is indeed K309, that has been around since the beginning of 2016, does cause the issues you are reporting and has been fixed with a patch, K309B, so the talk of CARB etc is total BS.

If it is a new software version that has just been released then maybe there is some truth to their story.

Does anyone on the forum have access to the documentation to JTB00392NAS3 to see what actions are prescribed in it? What is the publication date for this JTB, that might be a clue as well? If it is very old then it isn't a **new** software release causing this, if it is a brand new JTB then maybe there is truth to it.

I guess there's some precedent for this:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...jaguar-asa.pdf

Note that in '97, Jaguar agreed to update the OBD software of offending vehicles anytime a vehicle came in for service - there would have been no way of bypassing that, presumably.

Could be something similar going on now.

i see what you're saying and jaguar is certainly clinging to this argument. Except the government isn't able to give rights to private corporations to modify my vehicle without my consent. What if I were to use the car for off-street, track use only? Jaguar clearly screwed up here and, tried to slide in a fix under the guise of a "component malfunction" in order to mislead us into accepting this garbage.

Hi ek 993
The software update when O2 sensor was changed was EX53-14C204-EAG.

Hi ek 993
The software update when O2 sensor was changed was EX53-14C204-EAG.

Final note on the car! The exhaust note is nowhere near as loud as it used to be before software update but they managed to improve it just a tad. Jag explanation is Federal Emission laws. Basically the software did something to the catalytic convertor! This is the end of the road! Email below from HQ. If you can avoid the software update K309, avoid it!

I just wanted to reach out and advise that Jaguar Land Rover has confirmed that your vehicle's exhaust system's sound & engine performance is operating within manufacturer's specifications & as required for Federal Emissions. Your retailer will contact you to arrange for your vehicle's return to you. Should you have any questions or future concerns, please do let me know. I will follow up once you've had an opportunity to drive your vehicle more.

So if you have a 14 V8S, the recommendation is not to take it in for all the updates ?

Correct. Do not allow them to perform the K309 update.

Yikes. Thank god for the forums.