F-Type Stereo System Upgrade Planning
#1
07-22-2015, 06:45 PM
F-Type Stereo System Upgrade Planning
Has anyone upgraded their F-Type stereo with aftermarket components? I've done this in each of my cars no mater the difficulty presented. In the case of the F-Type, since the audio system is very much integrated with other systems, I do not plan on changing the head unit. However I will certainly figure best way to upgrade the sound quality by changing speakers and adding amplifiers. If anyone has experience with upgrading the stereo system in this vehicle, please discuss the speakers you chose and where did you find room for better subs?
Does anyone know where the audio system components are located in the vehicle (amplifier, XM tuner, bluetooth modules, etc.)?
Also does anyone know if there is access to full-range line level before the amplifier? If not, has anyone used a summing component such as JL Cleansweep to obtain signals from bass, mids, and highs outputs?
Finally, does anyone know if there is a way to disable the compression circuitry?
Does anyone have any photos of the door panels removed and the rear speaker grills removed? Curious how much space is behind these areas before we start taking stuff apart next week.
Thanks,
Craig
Does anyone know where the audio system components are located in the vehicle (amplifier, XM tuner, bluetooth modules, etc.)?
Also does anyone know if there is access to full-range line level before the amplifier? If not, has anyone used a summing component such as JL Cleansweep to obtain signals from bass, mids, and highs outputs?
Finally, does anyone know if there is a way to disable the compression circuitry?
Does anyone have any photos of the door panels removed and the rear speaker grills removed? Curious how much space is behind these areas before we start taking stuff apart next week.
Thanks,
Craig
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andykreb (03-28-2018)
Top Answer
08-09-2015, 11:45 AM
After searching online for weeks for anyone's F-Type stereo upgrades, I can't find a single thing. I'm convinced no one has taken an invasive approach to correcting the substandard audio systems our cars suffer from. So I am taking the plunge!
At 45 years old, I've been in the audio/video/automation business over 29 years since working at my first car stereo shop in high school. Putting my experience to work on our F-Types should hopefully produce excellent results.
My goal is sound quality with full range clarity and detail from the lowest frequencies to the highest with no visual alteration to my car's interior.
This weekend we took the interior panels off to explore where better equipment can be installed. Discoveries so far -
Our stock stereos provide a 3-way speaker system in each door. There is excellent space in door for large mid-bass speakers. Preliminarily I believe we may be able to fit up to a 9" woofer. The mid-range speaker depth is very limited preventing my previously installed Dynaudio System 360 speaker system from being used again. In sticking with goal of sound quality this pushes me to Morel Elate 903 speaker system which may fit nicely with very little modification required. The Morel tweeter is also similar sizer to our stock Meridian tweeter for easy swap installation. The Dynaudio tweeter I was originally hoping to use is also oversize and will not fit without much butchering. So for the doors I believe I will be going with Morel Elate 903 speakers. An Alpine PDX-F6 will be used to power the 3-ways Morel set is a bi-wire configuration. The amplifier is rated at 150-watts x 4. We will power the 9" mid-bass driver with a 150-watt channel and the mid+tweeter with another 150-watt channel. The Morel crossover allows for bi-wire input to power the drivers this way and still provide proper crossover points as needed. The identical configuration will apply to both left and right sides for a total of 600-watts of sound quality up front.
Next up - subs! With interior space extremely limited we had to remove rear panels to see what our stock subs look like and what usable box space is available. An 8" stock sub is installed behind each seat as well as a small 4" coax speaker for our rear fill sound. The stock sub is mounted free-air meaning it is not installed within an airtight enclosure. This is main reason our bass lacks tightness and accuracy. There is ample space behind the woofer but is it somewhat limited and a very awkward shape which makes upgrading subs very challenging. But I'm of course up for the challenge!
Clearly the subwoofer options are limited to shallow-mount subs which operate well in very small airspace enclosures. The opening maximum will limit any option to an 8" subwoofer which rules out JL Audio 10TW3 option. This would have been my first choice but JL does not make this speaker in an 8" version. My next choice is a Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW800F which is an excellent quality shallow-mount 8" subwoofer constructed with carbon glass fiber as its air-moving cone.
We plan to construct a completely custom enclosure made from fiberglass to maximize on airspace from the awkward shaped space we have to work with behind stock subwoofer. Somewhat challenging but very doable. We will construct two of these enclosures to utilize space behind each stock sub to house two Kenwood 8" subs. The two subs will be powered from a JL Audio 500/1 mono block amplifier which is rated at a solid 500 watts.
Next we need to obtain full-range left and right signals from the stock head unit stereo system. So we opened more parts of the Jaguar to see whats inside. We discovered the head unit is completely integrated with other systems such as Nav voice and bluetooth phone sound before it is sent to an amplifier via fiberoptic cables. We cannot obtain our signal from the fiberoptic line without inventing a proprietary digital to analog product specific for Jaguar vehicles so we must obtain signal from the high-level output of the stock amplifier. Unfortunately it does not provide full range frequencies. It does however provide several different range of frequencies to each speaker - that is subs, mid-bass, mid-range, and tweeters. From combining these we can reconstruct the full range signal. This requires a summing processor. There are several on the market but I selected JBL MS-8 for this task primarily because it provides an excellent set of signal processing to tenth audio to the environment of the car's interior. My interior space changes when convertible top is open or closed. The JBL provides easy access to stored configurations so that I can tune sound quality differently from top opened and top closed. A single press of a button will bring the stored settings. The JBL tuning allows for time alignment with is important for proper sound stage and a ⅓-octave eq per output for tuning flat response.
Thats all that we explore and planned so far. Monday we will begin constructing the subwoofer enclosures and fitting the door speakers.
If people request, I will continue to share my progress experience. I also welcome your ideas and suggestions.
Craig
At 45 years old, I've been in the audio/video/automation business over 29 years since working at my first car stereo shop in high school. Putting my experience to work on our F-Types should hopefully produce excellent results.
My goal is sound quality with full range clarity and detail from the lowest frequencies to the highest with no visual alteration to my car's interior.
This weekend we took the interior panels off to explore where better equipment can be installed. Discoveries so far -
Our stock stereos provide a 3-way speaker system in each door. There is excellent space in door for large mid-bass speakers. Preliminarily I believe we may be able to fit up to a 9" woofer. The mid-range speaker depth is very limited preventing my previously installed Dynaudio System 360 speaker system from being used again. In sticking with goal of sound quality this pushes me to Morel Elate 903 speaker system which may fit nicely with very little modification required. The Morel tweeter is also similar sizer to our stock Meridian tweeter for easy swap installation. The Dynaudio tweeter I was originally hoping to use is also oversize and will not fit without much butchering. So for the doors I believe I will be going with Morel Elate 903 speakers. An Alpine PDX-F6 will be used to power the 3-ways Morel set is a bi-wire configuration. The amplifier is rated at 150-watts x 4. We will power the 9" mid-bass driver with a 150-watt channel and the mid+tweeter with another 150-watt channel. The Morel crossover allows for bi-wire input to power the drivers this way and still provide proper crossover points as needed. The identical configuration will apply to both left and right sides for a total of 600-watts of sound quality up front.
Next up - subs! With interior space extremely limited we had to remove rear panels to see what our stock subs look like and what usable box space is available. An 8" stock sub is installed behind each seat as well as a small 4" coax speaker for our rear fill sound. The stock sub is mounted free-air meaning it is not installed within an airtight enclosure. This is main reason our bass lacks tightness and accuracy. There is ample space behind the woofer but is it somewhat limited and a very awkward shape which makes upgrading subs very challenging. But I'm of course up for the challenge!
Clearly the subwoofer options are limited to shallow-mount subs which operate well in very small airspace enclosures. The opening maximum will limit any option to an 8" subwoofer which rules out JL Audio 10TW3 option. This would have been my first choice but JL does not make this speaker in an 8" version. My next choice is a Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW800F which is an excellent quality shallow-mount 8" subwoofer constructed with carbon glass fiber as its air-moving cone.
We plan to construct a completely custom enclosure made from fiberglass to maximize on airspace from the awkward shaped space we have to work with behind stock subwoofer. Somewhat challenging but very doable. We will construct two of these enclosures to utilize space behind each stock sub to house two Kenwood 8" subs. The two subs will be powered from a JL Audio 500/1 mono block amplifier which is rated at a solid 500 watts.
Next we need to obtain full-range left and right signals from the stock head unit stereo system. So we opened more parts of the Jaguar to see whats inside. We discovered the head unit is completely integrated with other systems such as Nav voice and bluetooth phone sound before it is sent to an amplifier via fiberoptic cables. We cannot obtain our signal from the fiberoptic line without inventing a proprietary digital to analog product specific for Jaguar vehicles so we must obtain signal from the high-level output of the stock amplifier. Unfortunately it does not provide full range frequencies. It does however provide several different range of frequencies to each speaker - that is subs, mid-bass, mid-range, and tweeters. From combining these we can reconstruct the full range signal. This requires a summing processor. There are several on the market but I selected JBL MS-8 for this task primarily because it provides an excellent set of signal processing to tenth audio to the environment of the car's interior. My interior space changes when convertible top is open or closed. The JBL provides easy access to stored configurations so that I can tune sound quality differently from top opened and top closed. A single press of a button will bring the stored settings. The JBL tuning allows for time alignment with is important for proper sound stage and a ⅓-octave eq per output for tuning flat response.
Thats all that we explore and planned so far. Monday we will begin constructing the subwoofer enclosures and fitting the door speakers.
If people request, I will continue to share my progress experience. I also welcome your ideas and suggestions.
Craig
#2
07-22-2015, 08:03 PM
As I recall, one member replaced the door mid range speakers with success, but found not much available depth, another hooked in an external powered sub (in the hatch of a coupe), otherwise most mods to the system have been focussed on stopping the buzzing and rattling in the existing system using dynomat etc.
I don't think anyone has attempted anything at the level you're suggesting thus far.
Powered sub thread with some pics: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...sslink-143798/
I don't think anyone has attempted anything at the level you're suggesting thus far.
Powered sub thread with some pics: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...sslink-143798/
#3
07-22-2015, 08:24 PM
Senior Member
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Rat Fink65 (02-04-2023)
#4
07-22-2015, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the quick replies so far. I'd like to find more info from the person that installed replacement mids and the depth limitations. As for the Infinity sub box, its along the lines of what I plan to accomplish but without having a huge box taking up valuable trunk space. I'm confident that I will somehow accomplish greater bass and clarity without interfering with passenger and storage space.
The infinity bass install thread mentioned a service manual with electrical information. Does anyone know where I can download service manuals for our vehicle?
FYI: I'm specifically interested in mine which is 2014 S V8 Convertible
The infinity bass install thread mentioned a service manual with electrical information. Does anyone know where I can download service manuals for our vehicle?
FYI: I'm specifically interested in mine which is 2014 S V8 Convertible
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Dcrowel2 (01-22-2023)
#5
07-23-2015, 08:59 AM
Veteran Member
Dynomat did the trick.
I especially was pleased with the direct audio in from my player, and the clarity was extremely pleasing to the ears....., is there a rattle or a buzz here and there. Yes, depending on the frequency, but this is now the exception by far, not the rule. FYI, I have the 380W unit, not the upgrade btw.
Good Luck
I especially was pleased with the direct audio in from my player, and the clarity was extremely pleasing to the ears....., is there a rattle or a buzz here and there. Yes, depending on the frequency, but this is now the exception by far, not the rule. FYI, I have the 380W unit, not the upgrade btw.
Good Luck
#7
07-28-2015, 07:22 PM
Thanks for the quick replies so far. I'd like to find more info from the person that installed replacement mids and the depth limitations. As for the Infinity sub box, its along the lines of what I plan to accomplish but without having a huge box taking up valuable trunk space. I'm confident that I will somehow accomplish greater bass and clarity without interfering with passenger and storage space.
The infinity bass install thread mentioned a service manual with electrical information. Does anyone know where I can download service manuals for our vehicle?
FYI: I'm specifically interested in mine which is 2014 S V8 Convertible
The infinity bass install thread mentioned a service manual with electrical information. Does anyone know where I can download service manuals for our vehicle?
FYI: I'm specifically interested in mine which is 2014 S V8 Convertible
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319536
Last edited by RawwR; 07-28-2015 at 07:24 PM. Reason: insert link
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#8
07-28-2015, 08:57 PM
Veteran Member
Could dynomat be put into the doors in order to silence the rattles and noises. Simple as that. Have your dealer call the service manager at Madison Jaguar....they know exactly what had to be done and did it with precision and a smile!
#9
07-29-2015, 01:05 PM
Spoke to a couple reputable audio shops and the only way to upgrade the system while keeping the stock head unit is to get some kind of external processor to handle sending audio signals. Simply changing the speakers to better brands without adding a processor and amp would be a waste of time.
You would need a processor, 2-way component set for the doors, upgraded sub(s), two amps and labor for installation / tuning the processor. Everyone said you are looking at a minimum of $5k to do it right.
I wouldn't worry as much about what size the stock speakers are, as all recommended leaving the center speaker alone and only doing a 2-way set in the doors, not 3-way like comes stock.
You would need a processor, 2-way component set for the doors, upgraded sub(s), two amps and labor for installation / tuning the processor. Everyone said you are looking at a minimum of $5k to do it right.
I wouldn't worry as much about what size the stock speakers are, as all recommended leaving the center speaker alone and only doing a 2-way set in the doors, not 3-way like comes stock.
#11
07-29-2015, 03:25 PM
Senior Member
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#12
07-29-2015, 03:37 PM
Senior Member
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#13
07-30-2015, 12:03 AM
Or pick up some nice vintage gear on Craigslist for maybe $500 if you don't mind springing for minor repairs. That's not really the point though.
There is a thread somewhere where decent results were obtained for a lot less than $5k. The work really did not involve a lot of parts.
As I recall the focus was on getting low frequencies handled by an upgraded sub, raising the crossover threshold to get the troublesome lows away from the door speakers as well as the ones directly behind the seats and adding lots of sound deadening (Dynamat or the like) especially in the doors.
I am sure the$5,000 option described by the OP will sound great too.
There is a thread somewhere where decent results were obtained for a lot less than $5k. The work really did not involve a lot of parts.
As I recall the focus was on getting low frequencies handled by an upgraded sub, raising the crossover threshold to get the troublesome lows away from the door speakers as well as the ones directly behind the seats and adding lots of sound deadening (Dynamat or the like) especially in the doors.
I am sure the$5,000 option described by the OP will sound great too.
#14
08-09-2015, 11:45 AM
After searching online for weeks for anyone's F-Type stereo upgrades, I can't find a single thing. I'm convinced no one has taken an invasive approach to correcting the substandard audio systems our cars suffer from. So I am taking the plunge!
At 45 years old, I've been in the audio/video/automation business over 29 years since working at my first car stereo shop in high school. Putting my experience to work on our F-Types should hopefully produce excellent results.
My goal is sound quality with full range clarity and detail from the lowest frequencies to the highest with no visual alteration to my car's interior.
This weekend we took the interior panels off to explore where better equipment can be installed. Discoveries so far -
Our stock stereos provide a 3-way speaker system in each door. There is excellent space in door for large mid-bass speakers. Preliminarily I believe we may be able to fit up to a 9" woofer. The mid-range speaker depth is very limited preventing my previously installed Dynaudio System 360 speaker system from being used again. In sticking with goal of sound quality this pushes me to Morel Elate 903 speaker system which may fit nicely with very little modification required. The Morel tweeter is also similar sizer to our stock Meridian tweeter for easy swap installation. The Dynaudio tweeter I was originally hoping to use is also oversize and will not fit without much butchering. So for the doors I believe I will be going with Morel Elate 903 speakers. An Alpine PDX-F6 will be used to power the 3-ways Morel set is a bi-wire configuration. The amplifier is rated at 150-watts x 4. We will power the 9" mid-bass driver with a 150-watt channel and the mid+tweeter with another 150-watt channel. The Morel crossover allows for bi-wire input to power the drivers this way and still provide proper crossover points as needed. The identical configuration will apply to both left and right sides for a total of 600-watts of sound quality up front.
Next up - subs! With interior space extremely limited we had to remove rear panels to see what our stock subs look like and what usable box space is available. An 8" stock sub is installed behind each seat as well as a small 4" coax speaker for our rear fill sound. The stock sub is mounted free-air meaning it is not installed within an airtight enclosure. This is main reason our bass lacks tightness and accuracy. There is ample space behind the woofer but is it somewhat limited and a very awkward shape which makes upgrading subs very challenging. But I'm of course up for the challenge!
Clearly the subwoofer options are limited to shallow-mount subs which operate well in very small airspace enclosures. The opening maximum will limit any option to an 8" subwoofer which rules out JL Audio 10TW3 option. This would have been my first choice but JL does not make this speaker in an 8" version. My next choice is a Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW800F which is an excellent quality shallow-mount 8" subwoofer constructed with carbon glass fiber as its air-moving cone.
We plan to construct a completely custom enclosure made from fiberglass to maximize on airspace from the awkward shaped space we have to work with behind stock subwoofer. Somewhat challenging but very doable. We will construct two of these enclosures to utilize space behind each stock sub to house two Kenwood 8" subs. The two subs will be powered from a JL Audio 500/1 mono block amplifier which is rated at a solid 500 watts.
Next we need to obtain full-range left and right signals from the stock head unit stereo system. So we opened more parts of the Jaguar to see whats inside. We discovered the head unit is completely integrated with other systems such as Nav voice and bluetooth phone sound before it is sent to an amplifier via fiberoptic cables. We cannot obtain our signal from the fiberoptic line without inventing a proprietary digital to analog product specific for Jaguar vehicles so we must obtain signal from the high-level output of the stock amplifier. Unfortunately it does not provide full range frequencies. It does however provide several different range of frequencies to each speaker - that is subs, mid-bass, mid-range, and tweeters. From combining these we can reconstruct the full range signal. This requires a summing processor. There are several on the market but I selected JBL MS-8 for this task primarily because it provides an excellent set of signal processing to tenth audio to the environment of the car's interior. My interior space changes when convertible top is open or closed. The JBL provides easy access to stored configurations so that I can tune sound quality differently from top opened and top closed. A single press of a button will bring the stored settings. The JBL tuning allows for time alignment with is important for proper sound stage and a ⅓-octave eq per output for tuning flat response.
Thats all that we explore and planned so far. Monday we will begin constructing the subwoofer enclosures and fitting the door speakers.
If people request, I will continue to share my progress experience. I also welcome your ideas and suggestions.
Craig
At 45 years old, I've been in the audio/video/automation business over 29 years since working at my first car stereo shop in high school. Putting my experience to work on our F-Types should hopefully produce excellent results.
My goal is sound quality with full range clarity and detail from the lowest frequencies to the highest with no visual alteration to my car's interior.
This weekend we took the interior panels off to explore where better equipment can be installed. Discoveries so far -
Our stock stereos provide a 3-way speaker system in each door. There is excellent space in door for large mid-bass speakers. Preliminarily I believe we may be able to fit up to a 9" woofer. The mid-range speaker depth is very limited preventing my previously installed Dynaudio System 360 speaker system from being used again. In sticking with goal of sound quality this pushes me to Morel Elate 903 speaker system which may fit nicely with very little modification required. The Morel tweeter is also similar sizer to our stock Meridian tweeter for easy swap installation. The Dynaudio tweeter I was originally hoping to use is also oversize and will not fit without much butchering. So for the doors I believe I will be going with Morel Elate 903 speakers. An Alpine PDX-F6 will be used to power the 3-ways Morel set is a bi-wire configuration. The amplifier is rated at 150-watts x 4. We will power the 9" mid-bass driver with a 150-watt channel and the mid+tweeter with another 150-watt channel. The Morel crossover allows for bi-wire input to power the drivers this way and still provide proper crossover points as needed. The identical configuration will apply to both left and right sides for a total of 600-watts of sound quality up front.
Next up - subs! With interior space extremely limited we had to remove rear panels to see what our stock subs look like and what usable box space is available. An 8" stock sub is installed behind each seat as well as a small 4" coax speaker for our rear fill sound. The stock sub is mounted free-air meaning it is not installed within an airtight enclosure. This is main reason our bass lacks tightness and accuracy. There is ample space behind the woofer but is it somewhat limited and a very awkward shape which makes upgrading subs very challenging. But I'm of course up for the challenge!
Clearly the subwoofer options are limited to shallow-mount subs which operate well in very small airspace enclosures. The opening maximum will limit any option to an 8" subwoofer which rules out JL Audio 10TW3 option. This would have been my first choice but JL does not make this speaker in an 8" version. My next choice is a Kenwood Excelon KFC-XW800F which is an excellent quality shallow-mount 8" subwoofer constructed with carbon glass fiber as its air-moving cone.
We plan to construct a completely custom enclosure made from fiberglass to maximize on airspace from the awkward shaped space we have to work with behind stock subwoofer. Somewhat challenging but very doable. We will construct two of these enclosures to utilize space behind each stock sub to house two Kenwood 8" subs. The two subs will be powered from a JL Audio 500/1 mono block amplifier which is rated at a solid 500 watts.
Next we need to obtain full-range left and right signals from the stock head unit stereo system. So we opened more parts of the Jaguar to see whats inside. We discovered the head unit is completely integrated with other systems such as Nav voice and bluetooth phone sound before it is sent to an amplifier via fiberoptic cables. We cannot obtain our signal from the fiberoptic line without inventing a proprietary digital to analog product specific for Jaguar vehicles so we must obtain signal from the high-level output of the stock amplifier. Unfortunately it does not provide full range frequencies. It does however provide several different range of frequencies to each speaker - that is subs, mid-bass, mid-range, and tweeters. From combining these we can reconstruct the full range signal. This requires a summing processor. There are several on the market but I selected JBL MS-8 for this task primarily because it provides an excellent set of signal processing to tenth audio to the environment of the car's interior. My interior space changes when convertible top is open or closed. The JBL provides easy access to stored configurations so that I can tune sound quality differently from top opened and top closed. A single press of a button will bring the stored settings. The JBL tuning allows for time alignment with is important for proper sound stage and a ⅓-octave eq per output for tuning flat response.
Thats all that we explore and planned so far. Monday we will begin constructing the subwoofer enclosures and fitting the door speakers.
If people request, I will continue to share my progress experience. I also welcome your ideas and suggestions.
Craig
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#15
08-09-2015, 01:18 PM
Member
I'm also trying to design an upgrade system, but want to know what I'm working with before I garage the car and take it all apart. I'm particularly interested in seeing what size, depth, and stock mountings locations are available.
I used to build a lot of the CES cars back in the 90s and 2000s, and I still keep in touch with a lot of the manufacturers and installers I worked with. We can exchange ideas.
#16
08-09-2015, 03:56 PM
It's going to be really easy to sound negative with what follows, but bear with me. You're going to the trouble of taking the existing system apart in order to understand what it's problems are, and what can be done to rectify them. This is a good thing.
But first, I would ask whether you plan on achieving the target sound quality with the vehicle stationary, engine off and parked somewhere quiet, or while accelerating hard in second gear. These would lead to very different bespoke solutions.
Next, I would ask what can be achieved with the existing system components through:
1. Making sure the existing amplifier is only feeding appropriate frequencies to each speaker element;
2. Making use of your expertise in mounting speakers to best effect.
These are the added value aspects of your current investigation. The rest - until you can quantify what can be achieved with the existing equipment - is just unjustified expense.
Comments?
But first, I would ask whether you plan on achieving the target sound quality with the vehicle stationary, engine off and parked somewhere quiet, or while accelerating hard in second gear. These would lead to very different bespoke solutions.
Next, I would ask what can be achieved with the existing system components through:
1. Making sure the existing amplifier is only feeding appropriate frequencies to each speaker element;
2. Making use of your expertise in mounting speakers to best effect.
These are the added value aspects of your current investigation. The rest - until you can quantify what can be achieved with the existing equipment - is just unjustified expense.
Comments?
#17
08-10-2015, 11:37 AM
Veteran Member
Thanks for posting this. I have MB Quart components I took out of my previous car that I've considered trying to put in the doors (midrange, tweeter, crossovers.) Sounds like the crossovers are in the head unit, which is what I feared when I read about 'active crossovers' in the Jag literature. I've considered hooking up a spectrum analyzer to the speaker wires to see what's actually coming out of the head unit.
A project for this fall, perhaps.
A project for this fall, perhaps.
#18
08-10-2015, 12:34 PM
#20
08-10-2015, 05:06 PM
But then, most car salesmen seem to expect you to be grateful for what they sell you. Taking one's Work Face along so that you're actually engaging in negotiation appears to be poorly received. Particularly if you take the car back with an issue and get polite with them - they don't appear to know how to deal with that either.
It's important to enjoy all aspects of the process...
It's important to enjoy all aspects of the process...
