HELP: Dealer trying to void warranty
#21
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Reynolds Lake Oconee, GA USA
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I don't know if this will help, but here is the CPO brochure. It looks like they have to check for any trouble codes and that they may be able to see if the ECU has been "tampered" with. As others have said the dealer may step up as in order to sell a Jaguar as CPO they have to sign off that the car is OEM. This sheet is then presented to JNA and is is only then a CPO is issued as it is Jaguar that is warrantying the car, not a 3rd party. Good luck.
#23
Just to be 100% clear, the O2 sensor gets changed under warranty NO MATTER what.
Now, is the car driveable? Did they tell you that you need a new ECU just because of the permanent code? Did they try to perform an ECU upgrade and fry it? That is important info to know in order to help you.
Now, is the car driveable? Did they tell you that you need a new ECU just because of the permanent code? Did they try to perform an ECU upgrade and fry it? That is important info to know in order to help you.
#24
Before they CPO any car, they would install any and all FLASH updates on all modules (o at least verify them) that makes hooking up to the OBD2 anyway.
Secondly, NOBODY should flash anything without asking an owner first, from the days when Dinan applied the funny stickers stating so on my BMW round port, I have made it a habit to place a sticker near the OBD2 port stating so and NOT TO FLASH this car.
The code in question is a PERMANENT code. Most tunes will trigger it and I have a bit of an issue with tuners that manage to avoid it because it COULD save bricking an ECU. I know for a fact of one tuner that has bragged in here about their ability to get around it.
Personally I never buy used because I don't want to take over any hidden issue.
With that said, looking further into this would take you to the Magnusson Act (Federal Law concerning warranty). They need to prove that the issue is exclusively due to your modification...
Secondly, NOBODY should flash anything without asking an owner first, from the days when Dinan applied the funny stickers stating so on my BMW round port, I have made it a habit to place a sticker near the OBD2 port stating so and NOT TO FLASH this car.
The code in question is a PERMANENT code. Most tunes will trigger it and I have a bit of an issue with tuners that manage to avoid it because it COULD save bricking an ECU. I know for a fact of one tuner that has bragged in here about their ability to get around it.
Personally I never buy used because I don't want to take over any hidden issue.
With that said, looking further into this would take you to the Magnusson Act (Federal Law concerning warranty). They need to prove that the issue is exclusively due to your modification...
#25
I don't really think that is the point here. The OP bought a car with a CPO and he has been short changed as the warranty is not being honored due to no fault if his own.
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FType17 (04-20-2018)
#27
Join Date: Oct 2009
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As long as the ECU hasn't bricked, there should be no reason to change it unless the ECU needs to be updated to solve the o2 sensor issue. I suspect that swapping out the O2 sensor(s) is all that is needed.
I don't really think that is the point here. The OP bought a car with a CPO and he has been short changed as the warranty is not being honored due to no fault if his own.
I don't really think that is the point here. The OP bought a car with a CPO and he has been short changed as the warranty is not being honored due to no fault if his own.
#28
As long as the ECU hasn't bricked, there should be no reason to change it unless the ECU needs to be updated to solve the o2 sensor issue. I suspect that swapping out the O2 sensor(s) is all that is needed.
I don't really think that is the point here. The OP bought a car with a CPO and he has been short changed as the warranty is not being honored due to no fault if his own.
I don't really think that is the point here. The OP bought a car with a CPO and he has been short changed as the warranty is not being honored due to no fault if his own.
#30
Pixel....It's already been stated, but IMO, the real solution becomes apparent if you bought the used F Type from an authorized Jaguar dealer. If you did, I would calmly go back to the dealer Service Manager and explain what you already know....you purchased a defective used car from them, they certainly told you what and how long the remaining warranty was and therefore, they will have to repair the car at no charge to you.....it's not your problem who pays the charges, that's the selling dealer's issue. If the S/M blows you off, I'd contact/visit the dealer principle. As an authorized Jaguar dealer, he would never want the bad press in a situation like this where you are correct in your argument. Now if you bought it from another dealer or used car dealer, or worse yet, an auction, you very likely have a lost cause. Another full service new car dealer, might feel compelled to work with you (some kind of shared payment) since you bought from them, but the remaining other 2 possibilities, you'd be barking at the moon.
#31
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Pixel....It's already been stated, but IMO, the real solution becomes apparent if you bought the used F Type from an authorized Jaguar dealer. If you did, I would calmly go back to the dealer Service Manager and explain what you already know....you purchased a defective used car from them, they certainly told you what and how long the remaining warranty was and therefore, they will have to repair the car at no charge to you.....it's not your problem who pays the charges, that's the selling dealer's issue. If the S/M blows you off, I'd contact/visit the dealer principle.
It has a *defective sensor*...which is easily correctable.
It has a 'tune' which apparently isn't causing an operational problem with the car but jeopardizes warranty coverage. This, too, is correctable. it pretty much just comes down to "Who gonna pay?"
As an authorized Jaguar dealer, he would never want the bad press in a situation like this where you are correct in your argument. Now if you bought it from another dealer or used car dealer, or worse yet, an auction, you very likely have a lost cause. Another full service new car dealer, might feel compelled to work with you (some kind of shared payment) since you bought from them, but the remaining other 2 possibilities, you'd be barking at the moon.
Hard to tell how any given dealer will play it. Some step right up to the plate. Others step up only after a battle. Some never step up.
Cheers
DD
#32
#33
BS. The OP bought a car that was supposed to be stock. It wasn't. If the tune is not a defect then why is there a question about the warranty. QED. The dealer is liable for recision. He sold goods that were not as represented. If he wants to make good by replacing the ECM and that makes the OP happy, fine. Personally I would take the tune as a signal of other potential issues and press for recision. Little old people don't tune these things. The dealer can buy the car back and sell it in a fully disclosed honest sale. Better he take the hit than the poor customer.
#34
#35
Not so simple. The dealer doesn't have the OEM tune for any given VIN. Only the factory would have it (other than the tuner who downloaded and used the OEM tune to create the modified tune). When bricked, ECUs are replaced, the replacements are programmed at the factory.
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CRS 123 (04-21-2018)
#36
Doug....
"It has a 'tune' which apparently isn't causing an operational problem with the car but jeopardizes warranty coverage."
I wouldn't count on that. Most ""tunes" are made to produce more HP. You hope it doesn't cause an engine, transmission or drivetrain failure whether in the technical terms of the warranty (which is now being disputed) or possibly worse than that, after the EPTW has expired, but well within the normally expected life of that engine and powertrain.
"It has a 'tune' which apparently isn't causing an operational problem with the car but jeopardizes warranty coverage."
I wouldn't count on that. Most ""tunes" are made to produce more HP. You hope it doesn't cause an engine, transmission or drivetrain failure whether in the technical terms of the warranty (which is now being disputed) or possibly worse than that, after the EPTW has expired, but well within the normally expected life of that engine and powertrain.
#37
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The dealer is liable for recision. He sold goods that were not as represented.
If he wants to make good by replacing the ECM and that makes the OP happy, fine.
Cheers
DD
#38
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From the OP's remarks it appears there were no problems prior to the sensor failure. The existence of the 'tune' wasn't an issue....and apparently not even known about....until the sensor failed.
The OP actually never expressed unhappiness about the tune per se. But for the warranty snafu he might not care...or might even like the idea. I dunno.
I wouldn't count on that.
Not sure if I would either. Maybe, maybe not. We don't have much info to go on here. But, a 'tune' is not a guarantee of future failure or premature failure. We can speculate to our heart's content, however
Most ""tunes" are made to produce more HP. You hope it doesn't cause an engine, transmission or drivetrain failure whether in the technical terms of the warranty (which is now being disputed) or possibly worse than that, after the EPTW has expired, but well within the normally expected life of that engine and powertrain.
If I was the OP I'd want the sensor replaced and the ECU replaced with a factory spec unit so my warranty wouldn't be questioned.
Cheers
DD
#39
Not so simple. The dealer doesn't have the OEM tune for any given VIN. Only the factory would have it (other than the tuner who downloaded and used the OEM tune to create the modified tune). When bricked, ECUs are replaced, the replacements are programmed at the factory.
CRS.
#40
Ugh.
JLR should just take the customer's word for it and replace the ECU with a factory flashed one and honor the warranty that was issued.
It seems wholly unreasonable for a dealer to be able to sell a car with a CPO warranty and then the warranty be voided after the fact due to no fault or action by the customer and for a reason that could or should have been detected by the selling dealer (if such an issue would determine the validity of the warranty at the time it was written). Additionally, if the dealer gets a 'pass' for 'not knowing' the tune was installed in the vehicle they sold, then the customer should likewise get a 'pass' for not knowing the same. If the warranty is voided, then the customer should get a refund on that, if the warranty was a factor in purchasing the car, then the customer should have the right to return it as well, at their discretion.
I also find it difficult to believe in this day and age that the ECU would need to be 'replaced' given that the dealer can flash ECU updates as required, so they should be equally able to reflash the software in its entirety, although I could easily believe that JLR withholds this capability for reasons that probably only make sense to them.
I suppose this (almost) touches on the subject of 'right to repair', 'right to modify' where consumers no longer have control over the product they have purchased due to manufacturers withholding the software required to make the product function. If the manufacturer says this problem requires a new $2000 or whatever ECU, whereas the actual fact is it needs a 30 second software flash at the dealer, but the software is being withheld by the manufacturer because they would rather charge $2K for a new ECU then it is extortion of a sort...
Want to add the switch to your car that came with active exhaust, but didn't have the switch? You can't, because the switch isn't a switch that controls the exhaust valves, it's an input to the computer and without the software that reads the switch (which you cannot have) the switch does nothing. Also, ignore the fact that the software could have been written to work both with or without the switch...if they wanted it to (since it doesn't, I suppose this could also be down to incompetence...or by design, you decide...)
I suppose these issues will play out in the courts over the coming years as consumer products become increasingly dependent on software.
(rant off!!)
JLR should just take the customer's word for it and replace the ECU with a factory flashed one and honor the warranty that was issued.
It seems wholly unreasonable for a dealer to be able to sell a car with a CPO warranty and then the warranty be voided after the fact due to no fault or action by the customer and for a reason that could or should have been detected by the selling dealer (if such an issue would determine the validity of the warranty at the time it was written). Additionally, if the dealer gets a 'pass' for 'not knowing' the tune was installed in the vehicle they sold, then the customer should likewise get a 'pass' for not knowing the same. If the warranty is voided, then the customer should get a refund on that, if the warranty was a factor in purchasing the car, then the customer should have the right to return it as well, at their discretion.
I also find it difficult to believe in this day and age that the ECU would need to be 'replaced' given that the dealer can flash ECU updates as required, so they should be equally able to reflash the software in its entirety, although I could easily believe that JLR withholds this capability for reasons that probably only make sense to them.
I suppose this (almost) touches on the subject of 'right to repair', 'right to modify' where consumers no longer have control over the product they have purchased due to manufacturers withholding the software required to make the product function. If the manufacturer says this problem requires a new $2000 or whatever ECU, whereas the actual fact is it needs a 30 second software flash at the dealer, but the software is being withheld by the manufacturer because they would rather charge $2K for a new ECU then it is extortion of a sort...
Want to add the switch to your car that came with active exhaust, but didn't have the switch? You can't, because the switch isn't a switch that controls the exhaust valves, it's an input to the computer and without the software that reads the switch (which you cannot have) the switch does nothing. Also, ignore the fact that the software could have been written to work both with or without the switch...if they wanted it to (since it doesn't, I suppose this could also be down to incompetence...or by design, you decide...)
I suppose these issues will play out in the courts over the coming years as consumer products become increasingly dependent on software.
(rant off!!)
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mosesbotbol (04-23-2018)