"Forcing" electric sports cars? If you don't want one, don't buy one.

 

It's just missing for you. Look at any review of Rimac Nevara and you will see that the electric sports car dream is a reality, soul and all. Obviously it's a bit outside of the realm of "affordability" but give it time.

 

Well, I have owned/restored many Jaguars and I have a pretty good idea of what Jaguars are all about and how they differ from their competition. That difference is difficult to put into words because it is largely an emotional thing, it is what makes a Jaguar different from an Audi or a BMW and, very likely, a Rivac Nevara. It is not solely about speed or the driving experience. Can JLR produce an electric car that retains that characteristic difference? I hope so.

 

i-Pace owners seem to like them, apart from Jaguar dealerships and charging speed, which has maybe fallen behind newer EVs. And they look better than the competition, for the most part.

 

They look much better on the road than they do still. While all Jags look fantastic on the road with their LEDs highlighting their stance, I think, the i-pace when parked looks a bit weird. If I was in JLR marketing, I would have every shot of the cars when they are on the road.

 

The thing is that "characteristic difference" you crave doesn't actually exist. It's just emotion. Porsche guys say the same thing. BMW drivers think the new M3 looks good. It's not rational, it's emotional.

If you go into something new with an open mind, you might be surprised. Maybe the wail of the open exhaust and the software induced burbles and barks on over run aren't necessary to enjoy a beautiful, well balanced, extremely powerful sports car. Hard to tell without trying it and even harder still if you've already convinced yourself that the only way to have fun is with gasoline.

 

Perhaps some smart designer of an EV sports car will figure out a way to have the sound of the motor be tuned in a way that it imparts a pleasing mechanical sound to the driver ? And maybe even switchable on/off like the current exhaust system is. One of the artifacts of driving an EV is how quiet they are. Which is a good thing unless you are an old gearhead like most of us and like the sound of all the mechanical bits that an ICE car makes. I'm not advocating a "fake" engine sound like a lot of cars have now that is piped in through the stereo speakers, but some sort of system that lets the driver hear what the EV drive system is doing. That would enhance the experience for me. Just thinking out loud here......

 

I'm not of the mind that sound is a major concern when driving a car. If I'm being honest, the exhaust on my V6S makes me feel ridiculous at times. And I think it sounds it's best when you're deep in the revs (or as deep as a 6500rpm redline allows) and exhaust is singing instead of barking and gurgling and generally sounding like a teenage boys wet dream.

I'd love a car that handles like the F-Type, is styled as well as the F-Type, has an interior that works as well for me as the F-Type and doesn't sound like it's shouting "look at me" every time you start it up. But I also drive mine every day so maybe that's the difference. If it were a garage queen maybe it would make more sense to me.
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You mean I don't have to buy one? Thank you for telling me this valuable information!

 

You're welcome.

Those were your words:

"Forcing electric sports cars onto an enthusiast base that lives to hear the roar of a high tuned IC engine might be the perfect metaphor for our times."

You seem to think you will be forced to do something.
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I am sure you have watched young boys play with their toy cars. It's ALL about the sound. The best analogy I've ever heard is that the sound an engine makes is similar to the sounds a lover makes. And YES, it is ALL emotional! It's the one time when we can let ourselves be emotional in a world that demands that we contain these feelings in deference to how our professional lives must be conducted. It's a time and space where we can be those little boys again and just let go for a short period of time.

VROOM, VROOM, VROOM!!!

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, and Jaguar understood this well. Obviously, most of the designs have not held up well over time, but the rumbling of these motors are timeless. Is there anything better than listening to the roar of a 12 cyl Ferrari blowing by?

 

Yes, listening to the turbine-like sound of the starter motor on the V12 Jaguar! It makes you smile, everytime.

 

It is already being done. The new Hyundai Ioniq 5 N has it as one of its sound synthesizers. It also mimics a gearbox!

"The Ioniq 5 N e-Shift programing unleashes something that changes the game of how the brain processes EVs: simulated gearshifts. By briefly interrupting the motors' torque delivery, N e-Shift mimics an eight-speed dual-clutch automatic. The 5 N will jolt on upshifts. Downshifts are rev matched and accompanied by pops and bangs from the speakers during deceleration when Ignition sound mode is active, just like the internal-combustion N cars. Hyundai is completely transparent that interrupting torque delivery with N e-Shift isn't the quickest way around a track, but by only a slim margin. If you take manual control with the shift paddles and miss a shift, you'll hit a virtual fuel cutoff. Get caught out in too high a gear, and the Ioniq 5 will even lug the powertrain by limiting the power delivery. Yes, it's totally fake and unrelated to the mechanicals, but it's a degree of engagement that until now has been lost in the electrified world."

 

Well it's nice to see Hyundai recognizes how important the sound is to enthusiasts. At least it isn't totally fake and does affect the motor. Maybe another EV manufacturer will take the hint and develop the concept further.

There is a YouTube video of a Jaguar XK120 that illustrates the sound that the early non-synchromesh gearboxes made where you could really hear the whine of the gears and the sound of the engine.
Or as Synthesis pointed out the sound of a V12 Ferrari with their elaborate cam and valvetrain mechanical noise is music to car lovers ears. Even the air cooled Porsche flat sixes had a very distinctive sound that was pleasing. I remember reading about how when the Mazda Miata was being developed the engineers spent considerable time on how the exhaust note should sound. They realized that the car wouldn't have spectacular power and speed, but they wanted everything about how the car felt and sounded to be immersive and impart a lot of fun to the driver. This is exactly the philosophy that designers of EV sports cars need to follow.

 

I made an observation to some friends after I came back from Le Mans in 2016. Whilst the LMP1 cars were technically impressive, they would simply appear, fly through a corner and disappear with very little noise. Meanwhile, the Aston and Corvette V8 GTE cars would arrive slower, go through the corner much slower and head off onto the straight all in a symphony of glorious noise that would stir your soul like nothing else. There's also good reason the crowd would cheer and giggle like little children every time the Nascar roared by at Le Mans this year (it never got old for me or the friends I was with). For some folk, that sound is what makes a car have a soul. I totally accept that some folk got their kicks from the technical brilliance of the other cars, but there were a lot of people there that simply adored the noise of the event more than the visual spectacle.

So it is with electric cars. As much as I like the silence of my father's RAV4, it is a utilitarian device that gets us around in comfort and with less noise than the previous petrol-powered car he had. Even though the instant torque is fun, it's soulless, it's something that just does what it does.

For some people an electric car is always going to be a tool to do a job, and it will serve those folk well. For those of us that cannot escape from the joy of our bodies rumbling with the distant echoes of a monstrous V8 or screaming V6, an electric car will never do 'it' for us and no amount of 'persuading' will change that fact.

EDIT: No matter how much fun the manufacturers can make an electric car to drive, it will still sound boring from the outside. You're not going to want to wind down the windows on the motorway/freeway to listen to the glorious sound of tyres are you. Children aren't going to giggle with delight when you press the loud pedal. It's these little things that sometimes make life worth living for.

 

I know this thread is about sports cars but Jaguar also used to make real luxury sedans 20 years ago. One of the very things I like about my XJ8 is its silence but I don't think anyone here would say its soulless because of that. Its kinda funny when a stoplight turns green and a teenager in a contemporary Honda buzzes or a Camaro rumbles away with his foot all the way to the floor and an old man in a Jaguar sedan pulls slightly ahead of them, totally relaxed and serene, making almost no sound at all. And its not even the supercharged version. At only 290hp, its pulling for all its worth, but you wouldn't know it to listen to it. Now THAT'S LUXURY!

If not for some of the unknowns I mentioned earlier, I could almost be tempted to jump into a luxury EV BECAUSE of the sound. Its funny how sound really plays into the luxury car experience as well as it does sports cars. The XF is now 12 years old and never was as reliable as the old XJ8 and I had decided to get something newer and more reliable to replace it. But almost everything now in the same category is powered by a 4 cylinder. Only a handful of v6 sedans left and mostly you have to buy the sports trim level which detracts from the luxury experience that I want in a daily driver. The modern 4-cylinders make about as much HP as the old XJ8 does but the NOISE those little 4-bangers scream out while they're doing it is very loud and absolutely OBNOXIOUS. Definitely NOT what you want to listen to in a LUXURY sedan.

Now if Jaguar mass-produced an EV personal luxury coupe, i.e. a modern-day version of their 1975 XJ12-C two door coupe for about the same price range as the current Mercedes E450 coupe, I would be all in (well at least in a year or two at a certified pre-owned kind of price).

 

Actually the large four door coupe - the 8 series - is not selling well at all. The 2 door coupe version is not either.

It’s a pricing issue IMO. I considered an M8 when I was looking and bought my F-Type R in 21. Reasonably optioned the M8 was close to $140k. That’s way too much for the badge to carry IMO.

Lower 8 series models are cheaper obviously but still expensive compared to alternatives even within the BMW own range (4 and 5 series).

I would have the same concern for Jag if they build this and price it at $150k+. I’m not sure the Jag brand can compete in that range.

If you are looking for a status/luxurious GT car and have the cash it’s Bentley GT or Aston DB12. You are looking 250-300k range. Maybe Ferrari Roma which is top end of that range. That buyer likely will not consider a Jag. Those are 2 door not 4 door of course.

I’m not sure there is enough of a market for a luxury 4 door GT in the 150-200k range. It’s a small niche.

You’d be competing more with people who might buy JLRs Range Rover or top spec Range Rover Sport IMO - and that seems self defeating.

 

So...the Caterham Project V is a case in point. See the intro at YouTube: Caterham Project V | The Wait Is Over

This isn't too far from the right sight picture. Chances are this thing drives like aces, given their Caterham 7 background. It even looks Jaguar-ish. I get the "sturm and drang" the F Type brings to the table thing, but if this thing drives right...hell, I'll make it my commuter car.

 

I agree on the Caterham pedigree being a strong indicator for a good driving experience. Interesting, but I'd really need to know if I can even fit in it. I tried on a Birkin and managed to wedge myself in but couldn't see driving it at all. I had similar results with an Elise. I managed to get into it, but to exit I had to put my hands on the floor and crawl out. Hardly something one could pull off with the requisite James Bond panache. The Project V looks to be about the size of an Elise, so I expect it's a non-starter for me (pun intended).

 

If Jag builds an electric sports car, am I in? I think so…
I’ve had an electric commuter car, and I have an F-Type… I could see them doing a Vulcan mind meld with the two.

Heck, Caterham has it’s new “project V” model which is a minimalistic EV sports car for around $100k.
I think it is very attractive and effective.

Jag could build something similar, or a bit more grace space pace.

What i would really like is a new XJ-Coupe (2 door, 4 seater, luxury, fast)… could be electric or hybrid.

https://caterhamcars.com/en/models/projectv



Caterham V