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Michelin pilot sport cup 2 - which homologation?

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Michelin pilot sport cup 2 - which homologation?

 
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:13 AM
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Default Michelin pilot sport cup 2 - which homologation?

I am considering to get Michelin pilot sport cup 2, 265/35 ZR20 front and 305/30 ZR20 rear. My main purpose is to have better dry weather traction for my RWD V6S, since I find it especially tricky to get the power onto the road when accelerating out of tight bends (currently on MPS4S).
But when I started to order these tires I found out that there is quite a few different homologations.: N0: Porsche, N1: Porsche, and J: Jaguar.
It is my guess that the J homologation are the ones that are used for the project 8:
https://www.slashgear.com/jaguar-xe-...land-01510314/
Can any of you confirm that the J homologation was indeed for the project 8?
Does any of you have any knowledge how the characteristics of these homologation differ?



 
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:52 PM
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Have you checked your alignment?

I think the issue is your driving technique and not tires. Sure, more traction is better, but in normal road condition MP4S is plenty for RWD F-type. No matter what tires you have, with RWD you will never be able to stomp on accelerator while still turning and not have your rear end step out.
 
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by F-Type-Type View Post
I am considering to get Michelin pilot sport cup 2, 265/35 ZR20 front and 305/30 ZR20 rear. My main purpose is to have better dry weather traction for my RWD V6S, since I find it especially tricky to get the power onto the road when accelerating out of tight bends (currently on MPS4S).
But when I started to order these tires I found out that there is quite a few different homologations.: N0: Porsche, N1: Porsche, and J: Jaguar.
It is my guess that the J homologation are the ones that are used for the project 8:
https://www.slashgear.com/jaguar-xe-...land-01510314/
Can any of you confirm that the J homologation was indeed for the project 8?
Does any of you have any knowledge how the characteristics of these homologation differ?
The only difference between those "homologations" is the name of the manufacturer stamped into the side of the tire. The tires are all the same specs, design, construction. Buy the cheapest ones. The extra cost is for more limited production runs.
 
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:39 PM
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Can't understand all this big fuss that michelin are the tyres to be on, I live in ireland and the weather is mostly crap, rain most days, parcial sun and cold temperatures, can see no problem with pirelli tyres, same tires on most performance cars from the new astons to ferraris.
Best tyres I every had on were Dunlop sport maxx on my xkr, unreal grip wet and dry, think there over looked.
 
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by powerhouse View Post
Best tyres I every had on were Dunlop sport maxx on my xkr, unreal grip wet and dry, think there over looked.
My '07 XKR had Sport Maxx's and moving to Pilot Sports made a big difference. The lack of LSD or e-diff was still an issue though and it still tended to spin one wheel on the drag strip.

My '10 XKR also had Sport Maxx's on when I bought it and the rear end just had no grip. It was lethal and I had to think before accelerating hard and I certainly wouldn't do it on a curve or in the wet.

In the wet the back end would step out when simply turning left out of a street when driving normally. Switching to MP4S's has absolutely transformed the car and gave me the confidence to the take power up to where it is now. I don't think about whether the rear end will break away now I just stomp on the pedal and go. Of course I can still light the tyres up but the difference in grip is night and day.

I did think about Cup 2's but they don't have the same wet weather performance as the MP4S's.
 
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by powerhouse View Post
Can't understand all this big fuss that michelin are the tyres to be on, I live in ireland and the weather is mostly crap, rain most days, parcial sun and cold temperatures, can see no problem with pirelli tyres, same tires on most performance cars from the new astons to ferraris.
Best tyres I every had on were Dunlop sport maxx on my xkr, unreal grip wet and dry, think there over looked.
Not sure which model your are driving, but the RWD V8 F type is almost undriveable with the Pirelli's - the tires would break loose at 40 MPH with no warning and no appreciable acceleration of the car - just tire smoke - and this was on dry roads. Came on my car when I bought it used and they had 60% tread left. Sold those garbage tires, switched to PS4S and the car is so much faster and sure footed its hard to believe the difference.

If you have less power and are more judicious with the throttle, maybe the Pirelli's are fine for your car. For me the difference was night and day.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
The only difference between those "homologations" is the name of the manufacturer stamped into the side of the tire. The tires are all the same specs, design, construction. Buy the cheapest ones. The extra cost is for more limited production runs.
Thanks Unhinged - exactly the info I needed!!
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Have you checked your alignment?

I think the issue is your driving technique and not tires. Sure, more traction is better, but in normal road condition MP4S is plenty for RWD F-type. No matter what tires you have, with RWD you will never be able to stomp on accelerator while still turning and not have your rear end step out.
It is always great to get advice you haven't asked for :-)

But good idea to check the alignment.

To put your comments and perspective : recently, I have driven the following are RWD sports cars and compared to the performance, especially the ability to get power on the ground accelerating out of a swing:
  • new Aston Martin Vantage
  • Ferrari Portofino
  • Corvette Z06
  • BMW Z4 M40i

The first three vehicles listed above were extremely planted and it required aggressive stomping on the gas pedal for these 500 plus BHP vehicles for the rear end to step out. It is expected that these vehicles perform better than the F-type accelerating out of the swing because they have a transaxle and thus a much better front/rear weight distribution. So the comparison can be considered somewhat unfair.

However, also the BMW Z4, on Michelin pilot super sport tires, performed much better than my F-type, and it does not have a transaxle. Some well aware that stomping on the panel will make the rear end step out, but in my left eye but only to stomp it, even with the throttle mapping in the non-dynamic mode, a gentle push on the battle makes the rear end step out (I compared these vehicles going through the same swings the same day with only 30 minutes in between). Generally, for the price that was very impressed with the Z4 (I find the Z4 not very appealing to look at, so I don't think I'm going to consider this as an alternative for the F -type)

Anyway, a few weeks ago, I couldn't keep up with BMW i3 accelerating through a swing, so I am either going to improve the performance of my F-type or I'm gonna get something else that will loose an i3 in a swing.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Chawumba View Post
Not sure which model your are driving, but the RWD V8 F type is almost undriveable with the Pirelli's - the tires would break loose at 40 MPH with no warning and no appreciable acceleration of the car - just tire smoke - and this was on dry roads. Came on my car when I bought it used and they had 60% tread left. Sold those garbage tires, switched to PS4S and the car is so much faster and sure footed its hard to believe the difference.

If you have less power and are more judicious with the throttle, maybe the Pirelli's are fine for your car. For me the difference was night and day.
Thanks For sharing your experience. I have the MPS4S, and the car felt very planted compared to the Pirellis when I just got the MPS4S, but after I took it out of winter storage this spring, the grip of the MPS4S Seems to have gotten a lot less good. My MPS4S were produced in the end of 2016 and I wonder if they age fast and the compound is not as sticky is why it was when it was new. I'm just not very keen to buy a new set of MPS4S, atter 8000 miles and two summer seasons, especially if I can't be sure that the performance is going to improve.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
The only difference between those "homologations" is the name of the manufacturer stamped into the side of the tire. The tires are all the same specs, design, construction. Buy the cheapest ones. The extra cost is for more limited production runs.
No, this is not true.
There is a difference in sidewall stiffness as well as in rubber composition.
One good example a few years ago , was the Bridgestone RE50 .
You got an MD version for Mercedes which was horrible to drive in wet conditions but least for miles and miles ,as well as an N or H Version, especialy for Porsche and Honda S2000, with stiffer sidewalls and soft rubber compound.
Both got the same name , but were night and day .
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by F-Type-Type View Post

Anyway, a few weeks ago, I couldn't keep up with BMW i3 accelerating through a swing, so I am either going to improve the performance of my F-type or I'm gonna get something else that will loose an i3 in a swing.
Just try to keep up with the i3 for about 10 miles when it runs out of juice. You'll have no trouble blowing by it then.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tscjoki View Post
No, this is not true.
There is a difference in sidewall stiffness as well as in rubber composition.
One good example a few years ago , was the Bridgestone RE50 .
You got an MD version for Mercedes which was horrible to drive in wet conditions but least for miles and miles ,as well as an N or H Version, especialy for Porsche and Honda S2000, with stiffer sidewalls and soft rubber compound.
Both got the same name , but were night and day .
Thanks for input. The 263/35 -R20 and the 305/30 -R20 combination is available in N0 (Porche), N1 (Porsche) and J (Jaguar). The Jaguar homologation is substantially more expensive than the newest N1 Porsche homologation for a 911 but I have no clue if it is worth the extra bucks. Given the opposite weight distribution of the 911 it may prove a less good idea to go for the N1s.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:11 AM
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I track my MP4S-equipped RWD F-type, and I don't feel it is slower or harder to control in corners than other RWD cars. I drove both C7 (superb car) and BMW Z4 (ugh). If your expectations is C7 ZR1-level of handling, you are asking for too much. If you think your F-type is worse than Z4, it is possible something wrong with your car mechanically.

With this in mind, regardless of car you drive, it is important to modulate throttle gradually and not to get on it before the car crosses apex.

Here are some bad/dangerous driving habits:

a. Slow down too much before corner, then try to correct this during turn by getting on accelerator early. This is dangerous, you need to maintain steady throttle application throughout a corner.

b. Stomping on throttle after apex before car completely settles. While turning your car has a lot of lateral (sideways) forces going through it. It doesn't instantly settle once you stop turning. To compensate, you need to gradually increase throttle. Generally, I take about 1 second to go from turning to wide open throttle.

c. Lifting off accelerator while turning. This is opposite from a. - you entered corner too fast and now you want to slow down. This is dangerous situation that is easy to make much worse. Correct response is to maintain some throttle application and steer slightly sharper into corner than you normally would. What will happen is the car will slide sideways and end up taking larger radius turn. If you don't completely slide off the pavement you will end up in a controlled drift. If you lift you will end up plowing straight due to weight transfer to the back wheels. If you brake you will end up spinning due to weight transfer to the front wheels.
 

Last edited by SinF; 05-22-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
Just try to keep up with the i3 for about 10 miles when it runs out of juice. You'll have no trouble blowing by it then.
Haha - yes unless it is one of the range extender versions. Anyway, I would like to show any i3 the rear end of my Jag instantly, so I am pursuing the sticky tires.
Also I am wondering if the light weight battery that i installed is detrimental for the handling since it increases the weight bias to the front. I'm considering to put in the old led battery in again and to install a additional dumb weight (something like 25kg) as low as possible in the rear (on the metal bottom below the insert in the trunk). I will do some testing in the coming days to see if this measure increases traction, in particular out of turns.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:24 AM
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Before you buy a new car, ask alignment shop to check rear camber.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Before you buy a new car, ask alignment shop to check rear camber.
Yes, will get alignment checked for sure
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post

With this in mind, regardless of car you drive, it is important to modulate throttle gradually and not to get on it before the car crosses apex.
As we instruct our HPDE students: BOTS is the thing to remember when entering a turn.

Brake
Off (brake)
Turn
Squeeze (throttle)

Granted, an experience driver can modulate brakes and throttle THROUGH a turn, but BOTS is the safe way when you are just learning.

I would think this applies to overpowered RWD cars as well (V8 F Types, Vipers, etc)
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 10:02 AM
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Actually, the NO specification is brand new from Michelin.
Car & Driver tested them on a Porsche GT2 in their most recent Lightning Lap competition.
They ran the car back to back, first with Cup 2s, then with the Cup 2 NOs.
The NOs outperformed the Cup 2s in every way; straight line acceleration, lateral Gs achieved,
‘and especially dry braking.
They may not last more than 10,000 Miles, but they appear to be the best performance street
tire on the market today.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:24 AM
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FWIW, there are a lot of good tires out there. You don't really need to fixate on Michelin offerings only. You just need to figure out what characteristics you need from a tire. However, any performance tire doesn't like cold weather. I assume, based on your location, the car I assume sees some limited sub-freezing temperatures. Is it stored inside or outside? I've seen performance tires degrade from exposure to cold temperatures.
 
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Before you buy a new car, ask alignment shop to check rear camber.
Not sure how that would help as only the toe is adjustable (unless you’re going to use a frame bender).
 

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