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You seemed to join to talk about pedal commander, I am guessing that is your sole reason, you probably work for them and your job is to register on forums to spread your snake oil.
I have an SVR, its gone 11.2s quarter mile so far, by your BS fitting such a device would put me in the 10's.
So hey pedal commander resellers, manufacturers, step up, send me one free of charge, I will run at the strip without it, then run with it. If I go faster I will pay for it, but if I go no faster you can have it back.
Now that would be the perfect test, I know it won't do a thing for my quarter mile time but I'd love to fit one and prove the point, but I am not wasting my money to do so.
This issue and the arguments given to try to convince us that this is actually working, is just pure rubbish.
And yes - I am an engineer as well.....
But wait...you're forgetting about the time it takes for the throttle to send those electrons skittering down that thin strand of copper to the ECM. Maybe the DBM gives those little buggers a swift kick in the a$$.
Sorry, WOT is immediately available whether OEM or aftermarket DBW throttle controller when the respective pedal position is reached. The only possible delay is in the foot movement. But hey...I'm just a mechaniacal engineer. I don't believe electrons really exist (ever see one?)
Last edited by Unhingd; 06-01-2018 at 07:31 AM.
Reason: Correcting for early morning caffeine deprivation
Electrical engineer here and late to the party. I've worked on many cars over the years and have never ever seen an electrified accelerator. Pretty much there are two types of go pedals - direct mechanical and by wire. Our cars obviously are by wire. The accelerator likely works a rheostat whose changing voltage is read by the ECU which controls the amount of fuel shoved into the cylinders. (Stohlen, smack me around if I'm wrong.) The device that the OP professes to increase dv/dt likely provides a higher voltage than stock for a given accelerator depression. (But we all know that.) The result is quicker throttle response, but not noticeably quicker 0-60 times.
It is possible that on a vehicle that does not have torque limits set in the ECU and low enough power so as not to spin the tires, there could be a minuscule reduction in 0-60 times. That minuscule reduction would be due to the reduction in time to WOT due to less accelerator travel.
On a V8 F-T, such a device may actually make the car slower due to ECU torque limits and traction issues. This has actually been demonstrated analogously by those here that have dragged their cars. IIRC all have stated that their times are best by either rolling on the throttle or launching in rain/snow mode.
On a V6 YMMV. That said, if there is a 2-3 second delay to WOT something is very, very wrong.
Youre certainly correct with your assessment sir, we’ll written.
I think at this point we just have to let this guy ruin his car. Based on his own assessment that the device didn’t help 0-60 on his car because it “doesn’t pull hard enough to exploit the advantages” and him still not believing experts in the area; there is simply no hope.
I wont even go into the nonsense comments about the 8-speed shifting slow, the BMW 1M being “weak” compared to the less powerful 135i with the same drivetrain, or $5k getting you 610 hp out of the N55 motor that shows this guy clearly has no idea what’s up from down....
You seemed to join to talk about pedal commander, I am guessing that is your sole reason, you probably work for them and your job is to register on forums to spread your snake oil.
I have an SVR, its gone 11.2s quarter mile so far, by your BS fitting such a device would put me in the 10's.
So hey pedal commander resellers, manufacturers, step up, send me one free of charge, I will run at the strip without it, then run with it. If I go faster I will pay for it, but if I go no faster you can have it back.
Now that would be the perfect test, I know it won't do a thing for my quarter mile time but I'd love to fit one and prove the point, but I am not wasting my money to do so.
That's the one product form the large group of throttle re-mappers I've never used. Its the most expensive.
It might be hard to believe, but I'm trying to find a way to squeeze more performance out of an F-Type that is gorgeous and comfortable and (now) a price bargain, but it is not exactly strong. I love it, it's a beautiful, balanced car. But unlike most, I view balance as an elegant compromise, not an objective.
It might be hard to believe, but I'm trying to find a way to squeeze more performance out of an F-Type that is gorgeous and comfortable and (now) a price bargain, but it is not exactly strong. I love it, it's a beautiful, balanced car. But unlike most, I view balance as an elegant compromise, not an objective.
Not hard to believe you want more performance. Many of us do. The hard thing to believe is the claims on the pedal electronics.
The VAP tune works wonders, especially on a base model. You'd go from a nominal 340HP to about 415HP, and get more torque sooner. The ECU has limits configured in firmware, and lifting those will give you dramatically better performance.
Electrical engineer here and late to the party. I've worked on many cars over the years and have never ever seen an electrified accelerator. Pretty much there are two types of go pedals - direct mechanical and by wire. Our cars obviously are by wire. The accelerator likely works a rheostat whose changing voltage is read by the ECU which controls the amount of fuel shoved into the cylinders. (Stohlen, smack me around if I'm wrong.) The device that the OP professes to increase dv/dt likely provides a higher voltage than stock for a given accelerator depression. (But we all know that.) The result is quicker throttle response, but not noticeably quicker 0-60 times.
It is possible that on a vehicle that does not have torque limits set in the ECU and low enough power so as not to spin the tires, there could be a minuscule reduction in 0-60 times. That minuscule reduction would be due to the reduction in time to WOT due to less accelerator travel.
On a V8 F-T, such a device may actually make the car slower due to ECU torque limits and traction issues. This has actually been demonstrated analogously by those here that have dragged their cars. IIRC all have stated that their times are best by either rolling on the throttle or launching in rain/snow mode.
On a V6 YMMV. That said, if there is a 2-3 second delay to WOT something is very, very wrong.
No. A DBW pedal is nothing like a rheostat. All DBW pedals employ embedded complex logic (well, extremely complex compared to a knob on a resistor) to spine operator inputs to output a pre-defined, slow, laggy build-curve that reflects a new pedal position to the ECU. This is the case with all DBW pedals.
Almost all good, modern (past few years) ECU tunes remap the throttle curve for much improved performance, but as our tunes are pretty pricey and relatively immature due to economies of scale, a separate device makes sense IMO.
JB4 is the gold standard IMO, it has 50 throttle curve remap aggressiveness settings, entered during tachometer hijacking as selecting any tick between 0 and 5K RPM. As an example, if I select 50 my tuned 135 will immediately light up the tires up to around 25 mph. If I select 0 (no remap; stock) and I floor the throttle, it is impossible to spin the wheels no matter how fast I mash the pedal. Traction control: off. Needless to say, 50 is unusable.
Reason: instant WOT versus a 2-3 second build to WOT.
Nothing else in the tune is affected by this parameter/setting, it strictly a throttle remap feature. Although the core tune boosts hp from 300 to 420, after a few bolt-ons, which obviously makes an instant WOT command more impactful than stock.
I was skeptical too, but remapping the throttle curve's delay makes a real world difference. There is obviously no hp difference, but being able to actually move the throttle without some stupid virtual middleman hindering everything you request obviously helps real world performance, and numbers. Sports car manufacturers should be ashamed, but Jag and BMW, and many others I'm sure, curb design hp using software to create artificial differentiation in their line ups, so should anyone really be surprised?
JB4 is the gold standard IMO, it has 50 throttle curve remap aggressiveness settings, entered during tachometer hijacking as selecting any tick between 0 and 5K RPM. As an example, if I select 50 my tuned 135 will immediately light up the tires up to around 25 mph. If I select 0 (no remap; stock) and I floor the throttle, it is impossible to spin the wheels no matter how fast I mash the pedal. Needless to say, 50 is unusable.
Read what you just wrote... You claim at the “50” pedal setting (Claimed fast to WOT) that you immediately blow the tires off the car... but at “0” (Claimed slow to WOT) it is physically impossible to spin the wheels. So how do you explain that if the car is making exactly the same power/torque? Even in the stock setting you “eventually” get to WOT so why wouldn’t you be able to spin the wheels then if it’s so easy with your fancy pedal map???
I had a FBO 135i with a Cobb tune... because piggy backs are stupid... and I could light the wheels up on that thing up to 70mph if I wanted. So I call your claims bullcrap...
Read what you just wrote... You claim at the “50” pedal setting (Claimed fast to WOT) that you immediately blow the tires off the car... but at “0” (Claimed slow to WOT) it is physically impossible to spin the wheels. So how do you explain that if the car is making exactly the same power/torque? Even in the stock setting you “eventually” get to WOT so why wouldn’t you be able to spin the wheels then if it’s so easy with your fancy pedal map???
Reason: instant WOT versus a 2-3 second build to WOT.
Its hard for me to understand why this is hard to understand. Why have a wide open throttle command if throttle commands have zero impact on performance?
I had a FBO 135i with a Cobb tune... because piggy backs are stupid... and I could light the wheels up on that thing up to 70mph if I wanted. So I call your claims bullcrap...
Could be because I have them on my cars and you're making stuff up. Of course, all one zillion users and industry reviewers which show real world side by side trials in hundreds of independent youtube videos and magazine reviews are stupid. I get it.
Oh, add all high-end ECU tuners, they all include this feature, including the more popular Jag tunes.
... all one zillion users and industry reviewers which show real world side by side trials in hundreds of independent YouTube videos and magazine reviews are stupid. I get it.
Yes, there ARE a LOT of gullible people out there. Sounding more and more like you are being PAID to represent this 'snake oil' solution.
UN-WORTHY of any more discussion
Reason: instant WOT versus a 2-3 second build to WOT.
Its hard for me to understand why this is hard to understand. Why have a wide open throttle command if throttle commands have zero impact on performance?
It’s probably hard for you to understand because you’re making it up, but aside from that... wheel spin is not a product of throttle application. Yes driveline shock from a suddenly applied throttle or dump of the clutch can cause wheel spin, but that’s when you’re right on the edge of it anyways. The point is, wheel spin is a direct result of torque applied to the wheels vs. friction between the tires and pavement. If you spin the wheels at 25 mph under a WOT condition you’re always going to spin the wheels at 25 mph when you’re WOT assuming the vehicle is producing the same amount of torque and you’re on the same surface. So are you trying to tell me that if you start from 0 mph with the stock pedal cal, you won’t be at WOT by 25 mph? That there is no physical way to be at WOT under 25 mph and thus you’ll never ever get any wheel spin? But that when you adjust the pedal mapping with your JB4 you instantly get completely uncontrollable wheel spin all the time, even though you have the exact same torque and are on the exact same surface as before?
Originally Posted by Unhingd
Stohlen, you’re having a logic attack. Give it up! lol
I know right?! The really disturbing thing is I’m kind of enjoying it!
The biggest dummies are the Velocity AP tuners that you are recommending to me. The VAP tune includes throttle remapping for the idiots who buy their snake oil...
"It makes the throttle mapping much more direct and the car just rips up the the redline."
The biggest dummies are the Velocity AP tuners that you are recommending to me. The VAP tune includes throttle remapping for the idiots who buy their snake oil...
"It makes the throttle mapping much more direct and the car just rips up the the redline."
The biggest dummies are the Velocity AP tuners that you are recommending to me. The VAP tune includes throttle remapping for the idiots who buy their snake oil...
"It makes the throttle mapping much more direct and the car just rips up the the redline."
I have a VAP tune on my 2013 Range Rover HSE Sport. So you are calling me an idiot.
People who do not accept the truth are in an alternate universe and you seem thoroughly embedded in that alternate universe.
Throttle position sensor graphed. Stock 15 F-Type R.
The time to jump from closed to full throttle is less than one sample interval.
This means the pedal is going from full closed position to full open position in: less than 75 milliseconds.
In case you're unfamiliar with numbers and math, that is 0.075 second. And the time is less than that.
Shall I dump the data to an excel file with timestamps too?
This is what the car's ECU sees. Therefore there's absolutely no delay in the pedal. The pedal is a pair of hall effect sensors, not the complex circuitry you are suggesting.
Do you still believe in promoting your snake oil SGREENLYN?
Would you like to see the graph from my 2013 Hyundai too?
And before you suggest using "Torque", their displays are heavily overdamped to make gauges look pretty as they move.
If you'd like to see the data from another source I can communicate with the vehicle using proprietary protocols too.
But I think we're done here...
Go back to whoever is paying you to do this and submit your resignation.
06-01-2018, 03:58 AM
