Just checking in, what are the reputable tuners out there these days? I have a VAP tune now but interested in what else is out there (I am in the U.S. if that matters at all). Thanks!

 

Curious to see what options you get. HPTuners supports the earlier cars, if I had a car locally to mess with I'd like to see what tables are in there, would be fun to see the gains possible on stock parts, and then with a pulley and some supporting mods.

 

VAP
Viezu
Arden
Alpha Jag
Jag madness


Don’t know much about any, aside from VAP and Viezu. Alpha Jag is on the forum

 

Does anyone have any feedback and experience with Lister of UK.
https://www.listercollection.com/tuning.php

 

Thanks guys, might reach out to Viezu and Alpha to see what they have to offer.

 

I'm curious about your desire to change. Is there something you're looking for beyond your VAP tune? If so, have you asked VAP if they can provide an update? At one point, I did, so I asked, and they provided it.

 

It has been ok - called them the other day and asked them if they had any updates to their tunes (mine is back from 2020) and in a somewhat snotty way said they don't have any updates and for them to touch the tune they would charge $300. Also was looking to maybe adjust the pops and bangs but at that point I was a bit put off. Not friendly on the phone, and basically hung up on me with no "thanks for calling", no idea what I said to offend (this was Chris).

Tune itself has been ok but I do notice in warmer weather power pulls back sometimes - might be pulley slip (I have their early pulley that might be prone to slippage), but it feels to me like timing being pulled back. I use Shell 93 always but I have dual pulleys and the stock intercooler. Would run some logs but at this point if they are going to charge me for that I might as well spend on a fresh tune with someone who is a little nicer to deal with.

My buddy who sold me the car (lives here in CT also) said he had the same experience - in my prior life with my modified FR-S the tuners I worked with were always helpful and willing to chat, so that's what I'm used to, call me a "prima donna"

Anyways not looking to stir the pot, they are a solid company and supporter of our platform, they're just not for me personally. Very much appreciate the info, especially the experience with Viezu, i know they are also a big presence "across the pond" and have developed a ton for our cars.

Cheers!
Brad

 

Your experience is your experience I suppose, but to be fair, I wouldn’t judge them on a phone call. My opinion only man, and I certainly respect your thoughts/reaction.

I was talking to them a while back. They were generally very helpful on the phone. I had a few follow up questions that I never ended up getting answers to, but I chose not to hold it against them. No doubt they are busy, and I probably met their max questions allowed in a certain period limit or something ;-0 lol

I personally think a bit of grace is required at times. Especially when you’re talking about a company like VAP that both puts out good product, and stands behind that product. You don’t get to where they are without that being the case.

It’s very hard to make everybody happy all the time. Maybe buddy was having a bad day. We all have those.

All this said, they are an active supporter on the forum and a good company. I am going to support them with a purchase in the coming days, despite not having what I would call a perfect interaction with them. Nothing is perfect.

 

Not the first negative interaction with them, pretty consistently dismissive has been my experience. Nothing personal, plenty of folks happy with them - I just do not have tolerance for unfriendly behavior. Maybe it is a me thing, but have had plenty of supportive experiences with many other tuners in my long history, and most folks I know consider me a pretty easy going guy Not trying to disparage anyone, somebody asked so I am responding. I'll leave it at that, anyone with further questions just reach out to me via PM, I know these types of discussions get sensitive on open forums. Thanks all!

 

Fair enough man. Those are my thoughts, AND I’m trying to bring a bit of balance into the conversation here is all. As you just said yourself, starting to have these sorts of conversations is not ideal.

Not that I’m planning to tune, but is it a reasonable expectation to think that you would get lifetime updates/changes forever? I’m sincerely asking, because I just have no idea what the practices are in that re-map industry etc…

Without having knowledge of that stuff, is it reasonable to expect to be able to go back to a vendor after 5 or 10 years and expect that no money is going to change hands? Did they tell you that there would lifetime updates like you are expecting?

Just curious how this stuff is working in the industry….

 

Not worth debating my friend if you want to continue please PM me, I am moving on from VAP

 

I wasn’t looking to debate anything. I was asking a sincere question I don’t know the answer to is all. That said, I’m starting to feel like we’ve uncovered a possible expectations problem here, your treatment on the phone aside…lol

Anyway, I think you’re right. It’s probably best to leave it here.

 

I use HP Tuners. Many tuners will speak negatively about it because it costs them money, which I understand. They will tell you that WinOLS can access more...blah, blah, blah. They will also tell you that it won't log individual cyl knock, which it does.
Here is what they won't tell you, which I found out about through my own research as guided by someone who has been building and tuning cars for years.- (I also tuned and built engines, mostly rotaries with split timing maps etc...., I used to Dyno tune for people and also do mail order... the Jag software is a different beast and took some time to get used to.)

You can research why all these cars run in the mid 11's in the quarter mile stock and then someone will add dual pulleys and an intake and a tune. They are now running 30-50% more boost, depending on the torque request, yet still only pick up a tenth or two and 1-2mph in the quarter....So they spent $2000 in parts, and since most jaguar owners don't know which end of a screwdriver to hold probably another $1500 in labor, but the car feels better...

What the owners don't realize and the tuners will not tell you is that these engines are knock limited. That's why you'll feel it pull back during a run but not enough to make the car "slow." Believe it or not, they seem to pull back more in the winter than in summer due to the lower intake air temps, which calls for more timing, which creates more know, which results in timing being pulled and fuel mixture going full rich as part of component protection settings.

You see these guys posting timeslips running in the 10's with no water injection, saying it's on 91 or 93 octane and they push their tuner as being number 1. Its all BS. They are doing something to eliminate knock. You can pull some of the protection out in the tune by increasing the values which is dangerous and I don't think they would be stupid enough to do this with a 15K engine but you never know, or they are injecting H2O, running octane booster, running 100 octane gas or running E40 or E50. I know for a fact one of the guys out there boasting about how fast his car is runs E50 all day long but will never admit it.

The only tuner I know of who admitted to the knock limitation was Viezu.

Here is an example of what really occurs but most Jag owners (95%) don't even know it is occurring-


Once the issue was fixed- there was no mention of what occurred except that the knock was fixed through tuning....I don't think so.


Personally, I think VAP is great regarding the development and parts they supply, yet they are very protective of their products and can sometimes be short on the phone but who knows how many nuts called them that day...VAP certainly isn't the most secretive regarding knock as I've seen much worse with other tuners. VAP is typically helpful and concerned for their customers.

Short answer to your question- Run H2o injection, add timing and you'll make a lot more power safely. Then add high flow cats but research before you buy because cannister size is an important issue.

 

Sounds like the issues in the AMG world with the M113K, the 5.5L supercharged. Intercooling was the weakness, as the air-water bricks in the manifold just aren't up to the task of cooling down the inlet air and stuffing more boost though them doesn't help.

On the benz side the answer was divorced cooling (actual cool coolant for the I/C, not just warmish engine coolant), or then going to a Killer Chiller or similar to get below ambient I/C water, to then rebuilding the intake to put bigger heat exchanger bricks in there for better cooling. It unlocks the power the setup can make without adding stress to the system, as you are absolutely right on knock being the limiting factor on this setup due to heat.

E85 could help, but it's still not a solution. Still far better than pump gas though.

 

Good info and I certainly can tell something is happening, likely the ECU kicking into panic mode when the motor starts knocking. I noticed it on successive runs so I just need to get off my lazy *** and capture some logs. Unfortunately it is cold here now (I am in Connecticut), and while I take your word for it that knock happens more in cold weather, I can't load the engine much because the rear breaks loose at 50+mph lol (2015 RWD R). I have VAP high flow cats which might help some, but I suspect the culprit is a combo of running both upper and lower pulleys, heat soak from successive runs + my aluminum Mina intake. Viezu makes a bigger heat exchanger (edited from intercooler) that I may consider, but I think pulling some timing back on my tune will help. Maybe a little less power but keeping it under the knock threshold will keep it from falling off a cliff on the 2nd or 3rd pull. Or.... it could be upper pulley slip, but gut says it is timing.

 

Brad,You’re welcome to email me directly at scott@velocityap.com if you’d prefer to continue this conversation privately, or feel free to reply here. As someone who recently had his own F-Type tune updated, after not being revised since 2021, I can confirm that we actively monitor, refine, and amend our tune files as new technical capabilities and updates become available. This is especially effective when we can review detailed data logs, which are a critical part of understanding exactly how the vehicle is behaving.

I’d also like to get a clearer idea of the changes you’re hoping to see. Typically, the only instance where a customer would incur the $300 retune fee is when adding non-VAP hardware. If you’re installing new VAP components or requesting performance-related adjustments to a previously purchased tune, we generally do not charge for those updates.

 

As both a former customer and now an employee, I’ve gained a strong understanding of what happens behind the scenes. While no tuning company is perfect, including ours, I have yet to see another organization that invests the same level of care, detail, and precision into ensuring each tune is safe and reliable. If any performance-related issues arise after our tune is applied, we are always willing to provide an amended file to help resolve the concern. The challenge is that we can’t diagnose or correct anything without proper data. That’s exactly why we developed our own custom data-logging software: it gives us a complete and accurate picture of what’s happening with the vehicle, unlike other logging solutions that are often limited or unreliable.

In the short time I’ve been with the company, I’ve worked with numerous customers who came from other tuning platforms plagued with issues, issues we were able to identify and fix. I don’t say this from a place of arrogance, but from confidence in our process and our commitment to getting things right. That includes the original poster of this thread, and I’m hopeful they’ll reach out so we can help resolve their situation as well.

 

Brad, apologies for the additional message, I’m going through the comments one by one and wanted to address a few points. There’s a lot to unpack here, and you were absolutely right in saying that we need data logs to truly understand what’s happening. On my own personal vehicle (I’m based in Florida), I experienced similar knock and timing correction issues. Through data logging, we were able to pinpoint several contributing factors.

In my case, we identified upper-pulley belt slippage, a bad tank of fuel and a problem with my LPFP. All of these were corrected with a combination of a new tensioner, a fuel pump booster, and an amended tune file. My most recent data log showed zero timing correction, aside from expected heat-soak effects after multiple runs. Here in Florida, that level of heat soak is not unusual, even with the cooler temperatures we’re getting right now.

With that said, I see no reason we can’t assist you in the same way. I look forward to your reply or email.

 

Hi Brad. I reached out to you by DM. Sorry that you had a negative experience, I'd like to chat to you when you have time.

 

There's a few possibilities, and knock is one of them. We do find the Mina intakes often allow air intrusion at the PCV connection and then the car runs lean which can contribute to knock. Sometimes to the extent that it flags a code, but sometimes enough to fly under the radar. The upgraded coolant pump definitely helps with IAT's, which we've verified ourselves on multiple vehicles data. And for sure water methanol helps. Ultimately data is king & seeing what's going on in the data is the most reliable way to assess.