Just dropped the YT from the reply to keep concise. Some interesting thoughts and things to unpack. We are always happy to share & give transparency, but only to the extent that we feel comfortable protecting some hard won and expensively acquired data & information. And if we are ever curt or come across that way I apologize. It's certainly not our intention, I suppose every now and then someone gets us on a bad day, and sometimes communication that is not in person can be clunky.

HP Tuners. So, yes you can tune these vehicles with HP Tuners, and you can certainly accomplish some gains & benefits with it. No denying that. We don't use it for tuning engines because the level of detail that we need to go into is insufficient with basic interface tuning and there's a lot of things we want & need to adjust that aren't available or defined. For some people, the benefits & results might be sufficient which is great. In terms of datalogging, we have experimented with HP Tuners to see what it is capable of and what it is not. We found several limitations. One is that the latency was not as fast as we wanted or needed, especially when logging a lot of PIDs. We also found that it was frequently wrong or inaccurate. Yes, it SAYS it can log individual cylinder knock correction, and on some Calibration ID's it appears to do this effectively however we also tested it on other calibration IDs where it showed a log but showed zero timing correction on any cylinder on any run, but plugging in our logger would consistently show knock under the same conditions. Likewise, on some CAL ID's it will show the supercharger bypass valve position, but on others, that value never changes. Your mileage may vary, but for something we are going to rely on as producing accurate information 100% of the time, we don't consider it reliable or to produce data we find useful. That's a more nuanced answer, but yes typically we will say "It won't do these things" because we cannot rely on it.

Yes, these engines (specifically the V8, the V6 has far less difficulty) are very knock sensitive and managing IAT's, Lambda & so on is critical. We have to be careful here about making blanket statements because there are significant differences in the software setup of these engines across 10+ years of production, even in the Bosch MED17 era. For example, the early model year 14,15, some 16 MY vehicles were much much more sensitive to knock and will see a lot more correction. When you get to Flexray (17MY for LR, 18MY For Jag) then things become WILDLY different. The new emissions standards completely changed the way the cars are set up, what they are trying to do. They are set up to run absurdly lean, and only to enrichen the AFR when things become really dangerous. Overall, we're something around 800+ software versions we have now seen across AJ126 & AJ133 engines, with varying degrees of difference from small changes in addressing to wholesale difference in the structure & prioritization of the ECU. You can connect that back to the 'why not HP Tuners' - when you're dealing with that many file versions, generic stuff often doesn't work properly.

In our R&D processes we will and have experimented with pretty much everything you can imagine, including knock correction. I suspect that you are right about some of the claims made on 1/4 mile times, and what fuels are being run. What I can tell you with 100% certainty is any data we have posted - timing slips, dragy etc. if we say it's on pump fuel it's on pump fuel. Yes, the conditions need to be right and the vehicle needs to be working 100% and so on, but we have hung our hat on what we state & claim as being repeatable & safe. For example, the 10.88 (with a lift?) that's being floated around everywhere.... our dealer in Kiev ran a 10.88 in a V8 swapped XE that we tuned with them. Pump fuel, Stage 2, no games. So for example, when we were testing the 2300 on our SVR, we've got downpipes, a bigger blower, removed the sound deadening material and added an intake all of which might increase knock detection. While we were experimenting and testing we had a few runs where we were chasing ignition timing pulls. So under conditions where we would only blow up our own engine, Chris would dial timing sensitivity way back to see if the run cleans up (and if actual knock still occurs, we can see it when the graph dips.)

In terms of customer products, we are extremely careful about adjusting knock sensitivity. Again depending on the model year engine type & software version, IRO 15-20% is still within a good safety margin. However, what we see from other tuners files is not typically this conservative. For example, we are currently in the process of resolving a tune for a shop in the Netherlands who has had a Defender tuned now by two different companies, along with upper & lower pulley. Firstly we were able to diagnose belt slippage through our datalogs (this vehicle doesn't have griptec upper pulley.) Secondly, we asked for a read of the tuning file that had been installed by another tuner. Chris found that the knock sensitivity had been reduced by 30% across the board (consistent with what we have seen from many other files) and in addition to this, that the amount of timing retardation that was set to occur when knock was detected was cut by 50%. Meaning - when the ECU detects (or believes it has detected) knock, instead of pulley say, 3.5 degrees of timing it is only pulling 1.5 degrees.

So yes, these cars are... let's say overly sensitive to knock on factory calibrations. However, where I believe our products are differentiated is that you have a JLR & Aston factory trained technician creating the software who understands the safe limits in a more in depth way. I've seen all the internal and external communications we have had over the years, where we have informed people plainly that the fuel quality they have access to is insufficient and/or that we are simply not willing to dial out that much sensitivity and risk their engine. I get it, not all tuners work that way and many of them are desperate to 'win' the 1/4 mile race or top speed or whatever at any costs. And I give them some benefit of the doubt because we know that when logging with HP Tuners, sometimes the logs might be showing you zero timing correction on a particular Cal ID when in fact it is happening.

There's nothing 'wrong' with HP Tuners, and its a capable platform for more basic needs. And there's nothing 'wrong' with taking 30% of the knock sensitivity out, as long as you're comfortable with that level of risk. I guess we're just more conservative.

 

Hi Stuart, just catching up on this, very much appreciate the outreach, replied to your PM.

 

Hey Scott, thanks for the replies - to be clear, my feelings about VAP as a company and supporter of our platform for a long time are positive. I respect their approach to engineering. Did have a couple of conversations that could have gone better, maybe I overshared here - wasn't my intention to mar the company reputation. I was actually considering the upgraded tensioner as I have the older pulley (non-griptec) and know sometimes slip can be a thing on these cars. Planning Y-pipe upgrades this winter so maybe that is a consideration. I definitely plan to get some logs - been working with tuners for some years now so I am familiar with the drill A bit too cold at the moment but if we get a relatively warm day will make a point to do some early morning logs. Cheers,Brad

 

Thanks for the response Stuart, as I know you guys are very busy. Like I said previously, I respect what VAP brings to the table. You guys have the communities best interest at heart. However, let’s be honest, regardless of which software is used to tune this platform, the fundamentals don’t change. If you can adjust the torque request tables (which control the bypass valve) to achieve the correct boost, refine the timing maps and fuel curves, and manage torque appropriately, then you’ve effectively created the right tune for your setup. It has nothing to do with “stages”—it’s about the hardware you’re running and how you calibrate the tune to suit it.What often gets overlooked is the transmission. The transmission ultimately dictates how much torque the drivetrain is allowed to see, as well as engine RPM limits. To fully optimize a tune, you also need to adjust the transmission calibration. This is where HP Tuners comes in. All Jaguar tuners know that HP is the best tool for the ZF8, so it makes sense to use it across the board if it suits your workflow. For Jaguars, I like HP, for rotaries… that’s a different story.

Personally, I’ve found the latest HP beta software very effective, it logs per-cylinder timing correctly, and you can change the logging frequency of parameters like IAT to reduce clutter and improve accuracy when monitoring many PIDs at once. If you know how to use HP, ultimately it comes down to what you’re comfortable with.

When it comes to knock sensitivity, this is a very delicate area. Simply assuming you can safely reduce sensitivity by X amount is very risky. You must distinguish true knock from false knock. Modifications can introduce false knock, things like forged pistons with greater clearance, high-lift cams, headers, and so on. But altering knock sensitivity without verifying the source is unwise, especially with engines that run tight ring gaps and cast pistons.

A more sensible approach is to use proper knock-monitoring equipment as below to identify true knock over false, then adjust timing and fueling accordingly. The knock ears kit is really good. It’s always a balancing act, and every car behaves differently. That’s why, in my opinion, a custom tune tailored to your vehicle is far more effective than a generic one.

1. HT-070104 Pro Tuner "Knock Ears" Kit

Finally, it’s worth clarifying that each shops tuning technicians don’t “create” the software for these vehicles, they adjust the maps. The actual software is engineered by teams at companies like WinOLS and HP Tuners. Tuners simply modify the calibration maps to optimize engine performance based on each vehicle’s modifications and application.

This is a great discussion. Don’t see it often in this community but it’s much appreciated you guys are on here.

 

@bfrank1972 We have been fully focused on managing the call and email volume from our current Black Friday sale (which concludes today). While we make every effort to stay active on these forums, we unfortunately overlooked the original thread, as we were not tagged, but nonetheless wanted to address it promptly.

I work closely with Stuart, the Managing Director of VAP, and I was a long-time customer before joining the team. As the person responsible for the overall sales experience, I take our service standards very seriously. Challenges do arise, and there are occasions where factors outside our control limit what we can resolve. However, when an issue is within our control, we are committed to doing everything we can to make it right.

As noted earlier, and in my signature below, are both my direct extension (x109) and email. You are always welcome to contact Stuart @Stuart@VelocityAP , but I am also readily available to step in and ensure a timely response.

I have been active on these forums for years under my personal account, and specifically within the F-Type community I bring extensive hands-on experience with installation and setup from my time as a customer first.

Here is a recent shot while at a charity event down in Sebring, FL of my own F-Type. Please let me know if I can help in the future. Reach out to me directly.

 

Since the lean condition got mentioned, I have to ask, is this potentially why the AJ133 may idle a bit odd? For reference, I have a 21 F-Pace SVR, and sometimes the idle can be a bit "shuddery". It's not consistent light to light, and is way more noticeable in the summer when AC is used, but about every 5 seconds the engine goes through a cycle of "shuddering" and then normalizing. Dealer diagnosis was they couldn't find anything wrong and this is normal. Didn't see any major issues looking through engine parameters with my Autel. As a result, I'd been wondering if JLR were just leaning the engine way out when idling and then recovering, creating that feeling.

Ordered a whole swathe of parts from VAP last week; excited to see everything now on the way. If the tune modifies that behavior, that's a big benefit. Too bad this side of the PNW we max out at 92 octane instead of the 93 that seems to be available in BC. Gets even worse when driving down to CA and getting restricted to 91.

 

in my experience, and only my experience, which as of right now is fairly minimal with this platform , the engine should not shutter at idle. I am sure that if VAPs tune doesn’t fix it, they will make adjustments for you that would fix it. They are one of the few companies that put a lot of development into these cars and seem to know them inside out. When I first started researching these before purchasing mine, they had the most realistic goals for the car when it came to tunes and modifications. There was one other tuner (Fred Sampson) that was honest as well that I spoke with. Then there were some other people who just tried to make a sale based on fabricated results. You’re in good hands.

 

Thank you for your feedback. Communicating the depth of effort we invest in delivering a safe, reliable, and performance-focused calibration can be challenging at times. With more than a decade of experience and thousands of Jaguar and Land Rover engines tuned, we’ve seen firsthand how often customers come to us with issues caused by other tuners or by expectations that were never properly set. Anyone can fabricate a time slip, dragy screenshot or dyno output.

Unlike operations based out of a garage or businesses that primarily sell tuning tools under a “you too can become a tuner” model, our core expertise is in the tuning itself. We do not charge incremental fees every time a customer requests an adjustment. Instead, we provide the maximum capabilities available at each tuning level from the outset, along with complimentary updates when documented, data-logged issues arise or when new VAP hardware is added. This is a level of support many competitors simply do not offer.

While we are not perfect and do make mistakes, we take every effort to address them quickly and thoroughly. Our goal is always to help customers achieve the results they’re looking for, often while resolving problems created by others along the way.

 

Funny enough, I saw DMeister report a similar behavior on their brand new '24 F-Type, but reported it disappeared after a few months. This is one of those things where people report it, but no one ever has an answer for, even after some of them have replaced tons of parts. It's very subtle most of the time, so it will mainly get noticed by paranoid people like myself. My toy car is a heavily modded E92 M3, so...

Really curious to see if the idle behavior remains once the tune is on. These past 7 months is the longest I've gone without tuning or modding a car, so have been itching to pull the trigger. Ordered tune, pulleys, X-pipe and springs last week. Got a brand new supercharger out of the factory warranty and paid the dealer $450 to install metal coolant pipes at the same time, so I've gotten what I wanted from the JLR warranty. Especially after realizing the dealer only cares about an issue if it sets a CEL. I much prefer working with shops and people who want to keep a car running at it's best, so I'll definitely be reaching out to Scott and Stuart if I have any issues and lean on their expertise.

 

Yeah, it was super early in the first 100 km by memory. Not sure if it was a break in thing, or what, but I don’t notice it happening anymore. Others report it too. It seems to be considered a normal ish characteristic of the engine by some.

 

Most of the time those variations in idle are the PCM doing some sort of testing. For example, on cylinder balance testing, it reduced injector timings one at a time until it notices a change in RPM, then goes to the next one. Once it has compared all of them, and they are in range, it stops doing that. It uses this to determine if a single cylinder is not contributing the same, vs the rest of the bank. All in the name of lower emissions.

 

Levi,
you should do the engine software upgrade if you do the VAP sport cats
It will trigger the CEL on your dashboard. So you might as well get there tune package because you're going to need to get there software upgrade to shut off the check engine light once you install the VAP sport cats..

There's only one sport cat manufacturer who's sport cats do not trigger the check engine light. If you don't want to do the software upgrade then consider getting the different brand sport cat.

 

Can you share which brand that is pls. Is it because they use 400 cell cats rather than 200 or 300?

 

As a Brit, I thought you would know about this company, as they have a stellar reputation throughout Europe and North America. They are in business for 70 years, located in Italy.
Several F Type message board members have purchased these sport cats (and exhaust muffler) and have reported to this message board, this exhaust system DOES NOT trigger the check engine light because of how the sport cat is designed & manufactured.

They make 100 cell and also 200 cell sport cats. Which ever the customer wants.
Here's the information:

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...t-cats-284952/


Good luck.

 

We have already begun releasing our 300-cell (Euro 6) catalytic-converter downpipes for a broad range of vehicle models, F-Type is on the list of platforms to consider. The primary challenges with these units are their higher production cost and the resulting change in exhaust sound characteristics. We are actively refining the design to minimize these differences.

Many customers utilize an ECU calibration, so suppressing the associated 0420/0430 catalyst-efficiency codes is not a concern. Additionally, a significant number of customers operate our downpipes without experiencing a check-engine light and without requiring a tune. There also remains strong demand for the freer-flowing 200-cell option among customers who reside in regions without emissions testing requirements.