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Ford engines in new Jags?

 
  #21  
Old 06-23-2015, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigg Will View Post
Okay let's say Ford and Tata keep holding hands, how about a Jaguar version of the 5.2 flat plane crank (VODOO) V8? Normally Aspirated 500hp and 400ftlbs torque, 8000 rpm revability? Let Jag put a blower on it...


Unlikely- we tried to pitch a flat plane crank twice during my tenure at Jaguar, one was a 60 deg V8 based on the old V12. We had the concept running and everything. That prototype didn't go down well.


The second time was a flat plane crank derivative of the AJ37/AM5 otherwise known as the Aston Martin V8 Vantage engine- which gave a mild increase in power of about 1.5-2% but with an increase in peak BMEP. The beardys at Aston didn't like this at all so it never went any further.


I understand the GT350 Mustang is a flat plane crank- it sounded nice on the youtube videos- got me wondering what they had done/how they had grouped the exhaust.


Ford and Tata are barely holding hands- one of the reasons why the new engines that have been/are being launched in Wolverhampton inc. the diesels and other 4 pots- are being implemented so fast is because Ford are now charging Jaguar through the nose for any of the engines that Ford had a hand in helping to design/develop.
 
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  #22  
Old 04-06-2016, 06:21 PM
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From where I stand, all I can see is that Ford milked Jaguar and then dumped them. The smartest thing that Jaguar did was fight for the AJ133. No successful car model was developed under ford ownership. I see that Ford is now licensing the actuated cam technology from Jaguar.

To me the AJ133 was as significant as the Rolls Royce Merlin, it put British engine design on the map again. From a cash strapped company with its hands tied no less. Makes one proud. I did my part and got one.
 
  #23  
Old 04-07-2016, 11:38 AM
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i understand Ford sold more Jaguars than Jag ever did!

consenses says Ford improved jag quality by 100%?
 
  #24  
Old 04-07-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ronbros View Post

consenses says Ford improved jag quality by 100%?
That's a conservative estimate. I believe there would be no Jaguar today if Ford had not taken over.

It's amusing to see people agonizing over the presence of Ford parts in the modern cars, as though there were no 'big 3' major components in the cars prior to Ford.
 
  #25  
Old 04-07-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
i understand Ford sold more Jaguars than Jag ever did!

consenses says Ford improved jag quality by 100%?
Illogical and impossible. I will help you out since you insist on repeating.

Why did Ford sell Jaguar then, you dont sell something you are doing well with. Ask the current owners if they will sell Jaguar. That should tell you who really has done well with Jaguar.

There would be no Ford, GM or Chrysler if not for them learning about what quality is from the Europeans. I cant name one garbage that Ford USA produced that could be called quality or even engineered- prior to them acquiring various other brands. I owned some of them, what a joke the Mustang was until 2007. SUVs were hideous. Today the Mustang and Explorer and Focus are real cars compared to the utter garbage they used to make. They have even switched F150 to what Europe has been doing for decades, aluminum and turbo.

There would be no Jaguar if there was no Etype, Ftype, and everything in between. None of those Ford was responsible for. Jaguar name alone is synonymous with Luxury- Name one Ford known for Luxury and Quality. Dont prove my point by saying Towncar. lol.
 
  #26  
Old 04-07-2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
Illogical and impossible. I will help you out since you insist on repeating.

Why did Ford sell Jaguar then, you dont sell something you are doing well with. Ask the current owners if they will sell Jaguar. That should tell you who really has done well with Jaguar.

There would be no Ford, GM or Chrysler if not for them learning about what quality is from the Europeans. I cant name one garbage that Ford USA produced that could be called quality or even engineered- prior to them acquiring various other brands. I owned some of them, what a joke the Mustang was until 2007. SUVs were hideous. Today the Mustang and Explorer and Focus are real cars compared to the utter garbage they used to make. They have even switched F150 to what Europe has been doing for decades, aluminum and turbo.
There would be no Jaguar if there was no Etype, Ftype, and everything in between. None of those Ford was responsible for. Jaguar name alone is synonymous with Luxury- Name one Ford known for Luxury and Quality. Dont prove my point by saying Towncar. lol.
Let's be real here, quality was NEVER taught by the Europeans to the USA, that sir the Japanese must be given credit for teaching to all auto makers. The only reason Jag or BMW even have a production V8 is due to Toyota (Lexus). And while the name Jaguar might be synonymous with sport, before FORD bought them out, the name JAGUAR was mostly synonymous with RUST, POOR ELECTRICALS, POOR FIT AND FINISH AND GENERAL UNRELIABILITY, add to that parts unavailability and you have pretty much all the major English auto makers. It was not until LR, AM, RR, Bentley, Jag etc. got bought out for pennies that their image started to change and LR/Jag became a major player. I too lived and bought back in the 70's, and if you did want Luxury that looked good and ran under ALL conditions back in 1977, you bought a '77 Town Car, Fleetwood or New Yorker, the Jag was fixed during the week to drive ONE WEEKEND AT A TIME!
So before you go knocking FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER for quality, and praising Jag, remember those 3 poor quality AMERICAN auto manufacturers are the main reason Britain is NOT speaking GERMAN today.
 

Last edited by Bigg Will; 04-07-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigg Will View Post
Let's be real here, quality was NEVER taught by the Europeans to the USA, that sir the Japanese must be given credit for teaching to all auto makers. The only reason Jag or BMW even have a production V8 is due to Toyota (Lexus). And while the name Jaguar might be synonymous with sport, before FORD bought them out, the name JAGUAR was mostly synonymous with RUST, POOR ELECTRICALS, POOR FIT AND FINISH AND GENERAL UNRELIABILITY, add to that parts unavailability and you have pretty much all the major English auto makers. It was not until LR, AM, RR, Bentley, Jag etc. got bought out for pennies that their image started to change and LR/Jag became a major player. I too lived and bought back in the 70's, and if you did want Luxury that looked good and ran under ALL conditions back in 1977, you bought a '77 Town Car, Fleetwood or New Yorker, the Jag was fixed during the week to drive ONE WEEKEND AT A TIME!
So before you go knocking FORD, GM, and CHRYSLER for quality, and praising Jag, remember those 3 poor quality AMERICAN auto manufacturers are the main reason Britain is NOT speaking GERMAN today.
A Town Car, Fleetwood, New Yorker. Funnny. You should go check if they have heard of any of those cars in Europe, Australia, Japan, or heck even the Middle East and North Africa. Maybe at an amusement demolishing derby. You know why? they had real quality cars to chose from, which are still on the road today.

And thats just it, what you call excellent handling quality of a Town Car, Fleetwood or New Yorker or even the Vettes of the 80's would never be called quality in the rest of the world.

The difference is very simple, with only 3 car companies to chose from, all you got was cookie cutter, corporate designed crap shoved down. The Fleetwood, Bairritz (I owned one) Brougham, Roadmaster were all the same cars. As if they were making fun of you. Do you how many non-conglomerate car companies people had to chose from in a tiny island called England alone, Mini, Rolls Royce, Lotus, TRV, Jaguar, Rover, Range Rover, Morgan, McLaren, Ashton Martin, Caterham, MG. Lot more than 3. And each one known for being the best in the world for what they do.

If you think Japanese invented quality- in the late 70's no less, you simply dont know what quality is.

And as to your point about GM or Chrysler supplying England. I dont know what they could have. Dont forget Rolls Royce supplied the legendary engines for Mustang p45. And the Spitfire- which was built in the very factory that our Jaguar was.
 
  #28  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Count Iblis View Post
Unlikely- we tried to pitch a flat plane crank twice during my tenure at Jaguar, one was a 60 deg V8 based on the old V12. We had the concept running and everything. That prototype didn't go down well.

The second time was a flat plane crank derivative of the AJ37/AM5 otherwise known as the Aston Martin V8 Vantage engine- which gave a mild increase in power of about 1.5-2% but with an increase in peak BMEP. The beardys at Aston didn't like this at all so it never went any further.

I understand the GT350 Mustang is a flat plane crank- it sounded nice on the youtube videos- got me wondering what they had done/how they had grouped the exhaust.

Ford and Tata are barely holding hands- one of the reasons why the new engines that have been/are being launched in Wolverhampton inc. the diesels and other 4 pots- are being implemented so fast is because Ford are now charging Jaguar through the nose for any of the engines that Ford had a hand in helping to design/develop.
Well ground up development costs can kill anything, but the VoDoo 5.2 is already in production only it's just for just 1 car which makes no sense. Let Jag tweak the 5.2 to their needs BOOM.
NA = 500hp 430 ft.lbs torque
SC = 650hp 540 ft.lbs torque
You've just eclipsed MB, BMW, Porsche and Audi horsepower and torque.
 
  #29  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:57 PM
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This is the only pointy that matters:
Jaguar is still making cars the way they did long before Ford. In the same factory, same formulas.
Ford is not making the cars the way they did- they are not even making their trucks the way they did.
Jaguar did not move closer to Ford, Ford moved closer to Jaguars design philosophy. And they are using more European sourced parts now. Jaguar is using Less American sourced parts.
 
  #30  
Old 04-08-2016, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigg Will View Post
...........And while the name Jaguar might be synonymous with sport, before FORD bought them out, the name JAGUAR was mostly synonymous with RUST, POOR ELECTRICALS, POOR FIT AND FINISH AND GENERAL UNRELIABILITY, add to that parts unavailability and you have pretty much all the major English auto makers.
I read Sir William's biography a while back and it seemed that he spent way too much time fighting with his union workers, who would walk out of the factory en masse over an issue as simple as being asked re-polishing a piece of stainless trim.

I think this was true of most unionized British auto workers at the time.

Jaguar workers at the time were paid on a piecework basis: If you installed a lot of driver's seats that day, you made more money. Not a recipe for quality work.

Hourly pay and continuous training to try to develop a culture that valued quality finally paid off in the late 90's. (Under Ford?) Until then it was a mess, much to Sir William's frustration.
Vector
 
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  #31  
Old 04-08-2016, 09:27 AM
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Ford has always had world class manufacturing. They invented manufacturing efficiency. But they have also had the worst quality in design, because design was always manufacturing efficiency driven.

Jaguar has had manufacturing that was as bad as Ford's design. However they have had word class design.

I can say it simpler: Ford cannot put the Ford emblem on a luxury car and expect to sell any. Jaguar cannot put the Jaguar emblem on any car they expect to sell in any volume.

The relationship between Ford and Jaguar was mutually beneficial. And marginal, you can't build a jaguar with Ford ethos and you cant build a ford with Jaguar principles. Ian Callum just confirmed this, he said his hands were tied during ownership by bean counters, and Mr. Tata is an architect by training who vastly appreciates design and has given Jaguar a blank check.
 
  #32  
Old 04-08-2016, 05:01 PM
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TATA Jaguars are sold more in USA than any other country!

and the F-type is a Ford Mustang in a disguise.

and just read that Ford is importing 1000 new Ford Mustangs into UK, they were sold out before they arrived!!!
 

Last edited by ronbros; 04-09-2016 at 03:28 PM.
  #33  
Old 04-08-2016, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
A Town Car, Fleetwood, New Yorker. Funnny. You should go check if they have heard of any of those cars in Europe, Australia, Japan, or heck even the Middle East and North Africa. Maybe at an amusement demolishing derby. You know why? they had real quality cars to chose from, which are still on the road today.

And thats just it, what you call excellent handling quality of a Town Car, Fleetwood or New Yorker or even the Vettes of the 80's would never be called quality in the rest of the world.

The difference is very simple, with only 3 car companies to chose from, all you got was cookie cutter, corporate designed crap shoved down. The Fleetwood, Bairritz (I owned one) Brougham, Roadmaster were all the same cars. As if they were making fun of you. Do you how many non-conglomerate car companies people had to chose from in a tiny island called England alone, Mini, Rolls Royce, Lotus, TRV, Jaguar, Rover, Range Rover, Morgan, McLaren, Ashton Martin, Caterham, MG. Lot more than 3. And each one known for being the best in the world for what they do.

If you think Japanese invented quality- in the late 70's no less, you simply dont know what quality is.

And as to your point about GM or Chrysler supplying England. I dont know what they could have. Dont forget Rolls Royce supplied the legendary engines for Mustang p45. And the Spitfire- which was built in the very factory that our Jaguar was.
.

that time in history, Ford refused an enormous US government contract to build aircraft engines, mainly RR merlins, they were to go into the P51 MUstangs, when he learned they were going into British planes he refused the contract!!
that Lend/Lease BS was stupid, and brought Germany into something they really did not want!

Ford did not like England and anything related to them, Ford was IRISH and England did many bad things to Irish people.

many books and things about the subject!

Like England introduced OPIUM into China, it took 200yrs and a major brutle
change to come out of it, with a moumentel change in its very culture!
 
  #34  
Old 04-08-2016, 05:48 PM
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This is so entertaining, I believe I must get as the drama unfolds!
 
  #35  
Old 04-08-2016, 06:00 PM
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News flash people! Ford does not even make the list of cars made 75% in the US or of American parts. So much for Ford not using the rest of the world to get ahead.
https://www.cars.com/articles/the-20...1420680649381/

BTW is there a Town Car forum? Or a New Yorker forum, since those cars are claimed to be better than Jaguar
 

Last edited by Queen and Country; 04-08-2016 at 06:11 PM.
  #36  
Old 04-08-2016, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
.

that time in history, Ford refused an enormous US government contract to build aircraft engines, mainly RR merlins, they were to go into the P51 MUstangs, when he learned they were going into British planes he refused the contract!!
that Lend/Lease BS was stupid, and brought Germany into something they really did not want!

Ford did not like England and anything related to them, Ford was IRISH and England did many bad things to Irish people.

many books and things about the subject!

Like England introduced OPIUM into China, it took 200yrs and a major brutle
change to come out of it, with a moumentel change in its very culture!
No need to read books published by others on the subject. Read the one Ford published. "The International Jew" about the "Jewish Menace" he was a staunch anti-Semite. He was even awarded the Grand Cross of the German Eagle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew

Ford's father was English, mother American, and he was raised in America. He is as Irish as a Towncar is the ultimate sports sedan, or was that the Taurus?
 
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:20 PM
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I'm not going to touch this with a fricken barge pole


: paperbag :
 
  #38  
Old 04-09-2016, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
A Town Car, Fleetwood, New Yorker. Funnny. You should go check if they have heard of any of those cars in Europe, Australia, Japan, or heck even the Middle East and North Africa. Maybe at an amusement demolishing derby. You know why? they had real quality cars to chose from, which are still on the road today.

And thats just it, what you call excellent handling quality of a Town Car, Fleetwood or New Yorker or even the Vettes of the 80's would never be called quality in the rest of the world.

The difference is very simple, with only 3 car companies to chose from, all you got was cookie cutter, corporate designed crap shoved down. The Fleetwood, Bairritz (I owned one) Brougham, Roadmaster were all the same cars. As if they were making fun of you. Do you how many non-conglomerate car companies people had to chose from in a tiny island called England alone, Mini, Rolls Royce, Lotus, TRV, Jaguar, Rover, Range Rover, Morgan, McLaren, Ashton Martin, Caterham, MG. Lot more than 3. And each one known for being the best in the world for what they do.
If you think Japanese invented quality- in the late 70's no less, you simply dont know what quality is.
And as to your point about GM or Chrysler supplying England. I dont know what they could have. Dont forget Rolls Royce supplied the legendary engines for Mustang p45. And the Spitfire- which was built in the very factory that our Jaguar was.
So of all the British marks you name, how many are 100% BRITISH owned today (LOL, most have been passed around more than a $2.00 w**ore) and use AMERICAN or other engines and/or transmissions. And I never said the Japanese "INVENTED" quality, but they are the reason ALL auto makers quality got better.
And as far as the "cookie cutter" comment that is now called platform utilization, so add the Caprice/ Impala, and Bonneville but subtract the Barritz, that sir was reserved for the Eldorado since the 50's. These cars served the US markets they were designed for well, why try and reinvent a large auto maker for a small market like Britain, when you can just by a FAILING Voxhall, or Jag.
And as far as WW2, I guess the British found top secret way to manufacture, Ships, Tanks, Planes and other equipment from inside the London subway system while Hitler bombed away. #US WW2 WARTIME PRODUCTION FOR BRITIAN! The US Auto makers did a lot more than 1 aircraft engine. Lol
 
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2016, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
No need to read books published by others on the subject. Read the one Ford published. "The International Jew" about the "Jewish Menace" he was a staunch anti-Semite. He was even awarded the Grand Cross of the German Eagle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew

Ford's father was English, mother American, and he was raised in America. He is as Irish as a Towncar is the ultimate sports sedan, or was that the Taurus?
.

Sir William Lyons was IRISH, his father irish ,his mother English!

to add; Henry Ford was born in County Cork Ireland, his Father English, his mother BELGIAN, and he was an ALL American !
 

Last edited by ronbros; 04-09-2016 at 03:40 PM.
  #40  
Old 04-09-2016, 03:45 PM
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my personal experiences with British cars ,has been there Mechanical engineering very good.
there Electrical engineering is dog crap(Lucas etc.)

and today British engineers are the slaves of TATA and unlimited money, simple fact is payback for 99yrs of occupation of INDIA!

you guys will love this one, WAY back around 1940-41 WW2 era, i can remember something my father said to some people," as long as England exists there shall be MISERY in the world"
 

Last edited by ronbros; 04-09-2016 at 03:53 PM.

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