Obviously this is a question for AVOS and JgaXkr and any other person who has massive 500+ horsepower mods:

Have you made ANY mods to your fuel delivery systems in order to support the 600+ flywheel HP you guys are making??


and do you know what the upper limit of the stock fuel delivery system is?

 

With the eaton you aren't getting that far anyway, so whats the plan?

 

Wanna bet I see lots of Mustang 4.6 running over 500 hp on Eaton M112s

 

I can't tell when you hit a fueling limit with the Eaton, it will be much earlier than with the twin-screw setups obviously, but with the plans you mentioned earlier you will still be fine.

Or have you made new plans?

 

I must admit your answer, or non answer confuses me...

Yes, I am going to do a few other mods to smooth all the air flow and get more air with less resistance from the time the air hits the intakes to out the exhaust. Mostly "been done before stuff...mostly" Just mostly the tried and true ways to get more air in and out of the engine...

1. Have you changed anything related to fuel delivery on your car?

2. Why would the eaton run out of fuel any faster than the TS?

3. How confident are you that a motor with an eaton can't make 500++ BHP? (There WILL be a test on this later) The engineers at Muppet Labs may surprise you.

 

Everything is possible, being a muppet or not, but all comes at a price of course.


So far the highest powered 4.0 cars I have seen where in the 380 rwhp, so you need to jump that another 40 to touch the 500 bhp, and then you want to go higher even? That means a lot of mods to me, not cheap, unless you use nos or something like that.

Have written enough about the power consumption of the Eaton, and there is loads of info about these units around, and you’re not taking my word anyhow ;-)

 

"Have written enough about the power consumption of the Eaton, and there is loads of info about these units around, and you’re not taking my word anyhow ;-)"

Nothing wrong with a little friendly competition I'm asking you because I do think you definitely know what you are talking about AND you have actually done it before.

But you still haven't answered the questions of

1. What mods, if any, have YOU made to your fuel delivery system

and

2. I'm not modding the Eaton, other than a pulley, my planned gains are being found elsewhere (no nitrous or tricks)
I'm not actually claiming I'm going to make 500-600 BHP, I was just curious what the theoretical limits were with the stock system and if YOU, having actually made HUGE horsepower, changed anything, fuel wise, but if you want to continue to avoid answering the question, I will understand.

 

Ok you two the sandbox is for playing not nit picking, dont make me go get your mothers now play nice

 

You can't compare the 2 systems, so it’s irrelevant, I can't make it any clearer than that.

I did already tell you above that I don’t think with what your plans are you will hit a fuel delivery boundary. Of course can’t tell anything about what you aren’t telling.

With any serious modding, always keep an eye on everything, so get yourself the tools to monitor, a better tip I can't give.

 

I'm just doing what I think will be needed to reach my goal of a mid 12.5 second 1/4 mile, I think I will need to gain another 120 hp or so from stock to get there. So my goal is somewhere around 370 stock+120 hopeful =490 BHP. I can only try and see what I end up getting.

My plans basically are finishing my part of the R&D on a newly designed more efficient/higher yielding intake and full exhaust, more pulley, tune, and some other porting like the TB, etc. etc. (Did I just give myself away as being "Beaker"? I kind of look like Beaker...) Nothing I'm doing is terribly exciting or original, but is tried and true, so your high HP record will not be threatened by me.

Only time and running it down the track will tell if my mods will get me there or not. I think it will be close to a mid 12 with the above mods, but again, actual results will speak for themselves.

I'm hoping to have my mods on and dynos/tuning done by mid Sept. Then when everything is checked out OK, I will run it on the 1/4 mile and post the results.

 

Threatened? Not sure where you get that idea, so far it always have been others that want to challenge me, I can’t help that (besides having probably the most powerful XKR I admit). Everything I have done is in the open, and I always give my view on things, although some might think these could be smokescreens right? Why don’t you open a post to ask Bip as well?

Last but not least, you would have to spend more on the Eaton setup then the TS kit itself, and you would only get half the yield you would have gotten with the TS.

The road itself is half the fun, so go for it I would say and enjoy it

Nevertheless I would still recommend to get yourself some good tools, it’s not expensive, and it will help you tremendously to learn more about your engine before changes, and after.

If ¼ mile times are what you focus on, then why not shed some weight as well? Lighter exhaust, battery, brakes discs, wheel/tire combos should all help a little, but this is not my area.

 

Doesn't JgaXkr have heads and all the other goodies?

Wouldn't that make his the most powerful XKR?

I should clarify my desires for my XJR: I want it to run a 12.5, but retain all the comforts of a stock car, burl, leather, working A/C, etc. I'm not going to gut it just to gain a few 1/10ths in the 1/4 mile. I also want it to look stock and be a total sleeper.

I think it is possible to get to the 12.5 1/4 mile mark without needing to lighten my car. I may have to do a few more mods, but I don't want to make it so powerful it is breaking rear ends or anything either. I'm thinking this is totally attainable at a reasonable price.

As far as the dollar investment in the motor compared to a twin screw, as I see it, other than the pulley, everything I'm planning on doing would work very harmoniously with the addition of a twin screw.

 

I always try to be at least 1 step ahead so I have time to test it in practice before I recommend something. This is not a run around the block, but 10’s of thousands of miles, which is doable for me because I drive a lot.

In all my posts I have mentioned that the levels I am on right now are not recommended, as I believe this is borderline, and as I don’t know anyone else that is in this region, it’s still pioneering, but so far all holds.

So this is why I recommended to Jgaxkr (and everyone else) to stick to the max recommended pulley I supply with the kit.

Now the side effect with this is that I can still say I have still the most powerful XKR ;-)

Anyone can buy a different upper pulley for the TS kit, it’s not that I block that and I can also supply if needed, and on paper Jgaxkr’s car has the best chances.

You are overestimating the results of ported heads imho, or do you have some proof?

Although some things might work harmoniously, that doesn’t mean you need it with a twin-screw setup, pending which kit/own fabricate you take of course.

 

I think it's very difficult/almost impossible to run 12.5 with Eaton, DOT tires and no major engine modifications or NOS. This 12.77 run has been at the limits based on great 60ft time and end speed: 1998 Jaguar XJR 1/4 mile Drag Racing timeslip specs 0-60 - DragTimes.com . You can see list of the modifications there. Mat Moran run 12.4 but he used drag tires and high stall speed TQ. I think if we run 12.99 - we can be happy with our cars If that's not enough, better to think TS or at least big shot of NOS.

 

Well here's a reference for you;

Jerry on the UK forum did 13.67sec @ 101.95mph in his old X308 XJR at Santa Pod.

I believe the only mods were a lower pulley and a new exhaust (stock cats). Run on street tires.

So now, where do you find that 1.2 seconds?

Sadly that XJR was never on a dyno and it was stolen & wrecked not longer after that run, so we'll never know what the HP was...

 

The best bolt on increase in acceleration is to change the diff to a 3.77 LSD. You will loose some fuel economy but the trade off is worth it. I agree with Avos on the hp with an Eaton. I was with Thunderkitten when he ran his car on a dyno. He had 370 rwhp with a 7" lower pulley, ported Eaton with smaller pulley, straight thru intake & stock exhaust. The car sounded great with the loud whine from the blower but was a let down as far as output. I think this was the reason he went the Buckhead route. Water Dragon you are a classic example of "people don't listen" . You are wasting your time & money. You should just stop wasting your money & save for a Twin Screw. I will be glad to sell you some of the parts I have left over from my Eaton. I wish I could sell you my old supercharger but it is still lost in Utah somewhere. I have aluminum intake pipes to go from the throttle to the air meter, an aluminum pipe to go from the air meter to the cobra head, plumbing to put a K&N filter on the front of the stock air meter. I have a drop in K&N air filter as well as stock throttle body elbows. I also have 2 more Eaton Superchargers for 4.0 & a brand new 4.2 blower for a Range Rover.

 

First, everyone please read this post in the spirit of me accepting the friendly challenge of economically adding 120 hp to my otherwise stock 2002 XJR with the emphasis of trying to most economically, in a dollars per HP ratio, to get there. Please read the following post understanding my goal is not rear end or trans destroying power, but just approx 490 BHP ish. If I wanted max HP, of course I would have to change the blower, but again, I am not trying to make a 4000lb comfortable gentleman's car run a 10 second 1/4 mile.

I am NOT throwing down the gauntlet and challenging the domain of max HP here. My goal is a 12.5 1/4 mile while retaining all the niceties of a Jaguar. Will I get there...I don't know yet, but I AM GOING TO TRY!.

I am only looking for adding 120 BHP and my goal is to, rather than only talk about it, actually test these theories by getting my **** off the couch and testing new designs on my own car, on my own dime.

JgaXkr: You are 100% correct in saying that I don't listen when people tell me I/we am/are at the limits of what can be achieved, which is why I have 5 patents on products that people said would never work.

You know that 9 dots cognitive puzzle where the object is to connect the 9 dots with the least number of straight lines? Most people think of it as the "going outside the box" puzzle. Most people think the answer is 4 lines. In my psycology of peak performance class at Stanford, I did it with zero. ZERO, ZERO. Why, because I generally don't accept other peoples ignorant limitations they wish to impose on themselves, me or others. The instructions of that puzzle are "connect the 9 dots with the least number of straight lines." I can do it with 4,3,2,1, and zero.

I learned this from my father who also didn't listen to people who either who said that "it can't be done" or we were at the theoretical limits concerning certain electrical designs, but since he didn't listen, we now have satellites where the power supplies don't fail. He invented the fix that made switching power supplies work by solving the feedback loop problem which everyone at the time said couldn't be done. The voyager satelite, which he built the key power system for, is still transmitting.

I do not believe nor accept your argument that I cannot economically get the 120 HP I am looking for at a better cost per HP than the twin screw. The twin screw costs a minimum of what?? $6000-7000 USD delivered with zero labor to install? I am not going to spend 1/2 that. Sure the Ken Bell design is clearly superior to the Eaton, but if we are talking dollars to HP, with month of patience, I think I am going to unquestionably prove my point.

The supercharger is not the current absolute limit of HP of this engine, and I am only looking for a 120HP gain. SO if I add up the gains in efficiencies with better designs, maximizing on a part by part basis, I am quite certain I will see my 120 HP goal while using a completely stock Eaton without porting.

For example, I am certain that the dyno results will prove that the new intake design which Muppet Labs has come up with will outperform anything and everything that has come before. Mine will have the nice bend into the TB, like the one XJR-0220 designed, but with some additional significant improvements on the front end. As I said and have always followed through on, I will post my results as soon as the parts are installed around mid Sept. What dyno results did you get from your intake tube? I wouldn't expect it was more than 15 hp because it appears to be very similar in shape to the stock intake (without the accordion and snorkels) but retained the restricted shape as it goes into the TB. To be blunt, your design leaves room for improvement.

I expect the Muppet Labs version to dyno at a HP gain that has not been seen before.

I certainly do agree that the Eaton is very, very limited, when it comes to upgrades, but my HP search does not really include, nor is it required to, include changing the design of blower, other than pulleying it up a bit. I am going to run this experiment with a fresh Eaton M112 blower.

I'm looking at ways to make the rest of the engine system more efficient, and I/we are finding lots of inefficiencies that we are correcting and seeing gains from. Using just the intake tube example; by significantly lowering the vacuum on the intake side, we will see significant gains in boost without the need to spin the super charger faster and then having the extra heat and power drain from it's inefficient design. So, by having a better understanding of the fundamentals of air movement, aided by an understanding of the limitations and dynamics of the existing system, we can use our intelligence to modify the entire engine in a way that STILL produces significant gains, even with a stock eaton. Like this one example, where we see that working on the parts upstream of the blower, help the stock blower perform better, etc...

The entire engine set up, as it is, is like a straw with kinks and bends. Putting a twin screw on is the same as simply blowing harder through that straw. This works, but I don't think it is the most efficient use of $ per HP gain, at the 120 HP gain level, which is your argument. If I wanted max HP, of course, the TS becomes a must have.

But then I read AVOSs above post where he says the level he is at right now is NOT recommended, and wonder what the real "recommended" output is. AVOS, please answer, what is your "recommended" output?

JgaXkr, your car has all the goodies, water injection, heads, HUGE TB, killer chiller, etc, etc, so if you are not running close to AVOS's numbers what would you estimate your output to be, and at what $ per HP would you then estimate. Would that make yours in the 500 BHP range then...?



At any rate, I have a paint brush calling my name. My dyno results will prove my point better than logic. I will let the dyno print outs speak for themselves.

Cheers

 

This is my exact point, I am going to test the theory that 12.5 is not possible on an eaton. Can't reach the moon if you don't get off your couch...

I hope to have a time slip posted by end of next month. If I make it or not, I will post the results of my mods.


I will be using drag tires to remove the "I have traction problems" excuse.

Excuses are for weenies.

There will be no excuses, no if I wouldas

My car ran stock 13.8 with 9.5 psi of boost with no traction issues.


The man in black "Then why are you smiling?"
Inigo Montoya " Because I know something you do not "

 

Keep dreaming.

There's a reason why JgaXkr and Avos have kindly offered advice and suggestions to reach your goal, they've actually done it, gone down the heaton route, got the tee shirt - they're talking from a seat of experience. You're chatting about theories.
Instead of spending cash to be proved wrong, maybe take your missus on holiday and think about what these guys have said...

 

Well just for reference again, one of the UK forum X308 owners did a 13.829 @ 102.8 today at Santa Pod, dead stock not a single modification.

Make of it what you will.

Compared to the other X308 XJR of Jerry only 0.15s slower despite no pulley no exhaust.

Your own stock runs 13.839 @ 101.61 & 13.876 @ 100.43 are very comparable.

The question now is how to shave 1.2 seconds off that time. 1.2 seconds, in drag racing that's a lifetime...

I think JgaXkr is onto something there with the diff gears, it aint always about horsepower...