I have another question.

Back in those days did Jaguar actually assign a "model year" to the cars...or was that totally up to the the laws of the country where it was sold?

Cheers
DD

 

Doug up till 1968 dealers (all) were allowed to roll over stock unless there were significant changes (what constitutes a significant change is unclear and was up as much to local law as anything else). Unlike GM and Ford many companies --like Jaguar--made minor changes. DOT and NHTSA changed all of that. Jaguar introduced new models--more or less- in the fall as the others and with the boat trip allowed for the new models to arrive in the US late in the year. This of course adds to the confusion as a 1966 model could potentially arrive and be available for sale in 1965. Doug you deal with DMV folks--what they do is now as much a mystery as then. I always use the ViN and the certificate. My 420 'G' is titled as a 1968 although there were no 420 'G' models imported in 1968. So it is a 67 --which agrees with the cert--but it was a home delivery so it was used in the UK and Europe then shipped back on the "Tax free" program. By the time it was delivered to the US it was a 'used car' (although only 30 days used and 3k miles. It was then titled as a 68. Hope this helps.

 

this is the famous "J" Tag that California required on all new Jags entering the state.

If you can't read it, it is the tin or aluminum tag screwed above the factory plaque and it reads "J/64".

however my car was sold as a 1965 model by British Motors in San Francisco.
I have no clue when it arrived in California, but I guess it did in 1964. The Beatles arrived the same year. So I have a Beatles-era car.

 

The UK laws are much simpler, we go by year of manufacture, and year of first registration, so any legal restrictions like your DOT and NHTSA changes would go by year of manufacture, but the registration plate goes by the date of first registration.

So George's 67/68 420G would always be legally a '67 car but it would have a '68 numberplate, but it's registration documents would specify the '67 year.

You guys seem to have some fun with the DMV in some cases, luckily here the year of manufacture always takes precedence thank goodness.

 

I'll be darned. never heard of it until this thread came long.

Learn something new every day, eh?

Cheers
DD

 

In the early 80s, when serial numbers morphed into "VIN Numbers" carrying a model year designation a lot of the 'fun' ended :-)

Until then different states had different methods and regulations.

Still, though, there is room for confusion. For many years USA-market Jags carried two VINs, both plainly visible on the car. One was the 'born with' VIN, the other was the VIN assigned to meet USA market requirements. The format was different. To this day many VIN decoder services are Ameri-centric and don't recognize non-USA VINs...even on late model cars.

And for various reasons Jaguar (and surely others) ended up with some weird calendar year versus model year situations. For example, my 1988 XJS was built in *Feb 1987* but carried a 1988 VIN. Elsewhere in the world it would've been known as a 1987.25 or 1987.5 model. (I'll add that I've never seen literature from any other manufacturer using quarter-year delineations!)

Cheers
DD

 

Thanks George. It helps.

But, regardless of how model year was dealt with in xxx-market, did Jaguar itself designate a model year to the cars in this pre-DOT era?

Cheers
DD

 

This may be to do with the UK registration number changes, they were always on 1st August, so a new number/letter was assigned on the 1st of August. Manufacturers often launched new models to coincide with this as people waited to buy there car so they had a "NEW" number plate.

So if it was a new model it would have been built but VIN plated for the year of sale, but 18 months does seem very early to produce new stock.
The other possibility is that Jaguar only VIN plated the cars prior to sale and your XJS did sit around for a while, I know that sales of the XJS were slow, so that may be the case ?

When we get parts here, an "F" reg car would be a 1988/89 year car as they often refer to them by registration year rather than manufacture year. If there were modifications within that year, then parts would show up as 2 alternatives and the VIN number is used to identify the exact part required.

Not sure that helps, but it may be a piece of the puzzle, models were often known as a 1988/89 model if it was launched in August 1988, but I think this was probably how the outside world saw it rather than the manufacturer designation.

 

the California climate preserves old Jaguars, that is why everybody looks for Western cars, and the "J" tag is one way to confirm the car was originally shipped to, sold and registered in California.

Another way to confirm it is a real California car is the famous Black Plates, because the state allowed the car to keep its original first-issue/registration plate for the life of the car.

 

It seems to me that the governing position would be the Model designation that is written on a Jaguar Heritage Certificate.
I am almost tempted to take the gamble and order one unless another owner has one from which they would reveal the information.
I does seem very strange that Jaguar would be putting 340 badges on cars made months before the introduction of the 340 in ROW. Would they have ordered these badges so far in advance just accommodate the whims of Jaguar North America?
Another thing: cars sold earlier than Sept 1967 could reasonably be called 1966 models.
I just spend some time scraping the paint away to read the VIN scratched into my car. It was just beside the bonnet catch and it was not stamped but looked like it was hand done with an electric etching pencil. Pretty basic.
Flame away
BSM
P181389BW

 

OOPS
Scratch my comment about

Another thing: cars sold earlier than Sept 1967 could reasonably be called 1966 models.

Sorry Brain Fade

BSM

 

Brian ordering badges for the largest market--yep they would. Not sure if folks realize how easy that would have been for Jaguar. From request to samples in england at that time could be days. It is possible that Jaguar knew the requirements in the future (1968) for the US market and had already planned to do a 340 on the cheap for the ROW so when the request was made from the US they offered this short run of US 340s (AKA MK2) to satisfy the requirement. Note Dougdale states they went back to the "other" system with the XJ. As far as your "buzzed in" VIN number I must say I have not seen that on "straight" cars. They were always stamped in and by now covered with several coats of paint. You may want to use a black light or alternate source light and see if you have a ghost. No flaming as I am sure you can tell the difference between scribed and stamped numbers but then again do we know if the car was ever damaged and repaired? A high quality shop would put the numbers back even if not with stamps.

 

A 340 from the US shows as a Mk2 on the heritage certificate, Jaguar could not sell the new 340's into the US, so they badged up Mk2's as the manufacture date got around the new rules, so I guess to be correct as far as Jaguar are concerned no actual 340's were ever sold to the US, so they don't carry the 340 chassis numbers. It was nothing to do with wether they were a 340 or a Mk2, is was the date of manufacture, so all cars manufactured after a specific date (which included the new 340) could not be sold in the US unless they met the new safety laws, this ruled out the sale of "Actual" 340's so old stock Mk2's had 340 badges put on and sold as 340's.

Attached picture of a 340 cert that someone else on this forum posted some while ago. Note the cert mentions re-badging of the mk2 to a 340 but shows the car as a MK2 on the cert because of the Chassis No. Which is only 9 cars after yours so I guess yours would show up the same.

 

George, confused by the "in the future (1968)" when did the 340 first appear in the US and when did the ROW get them ?

 

Tilley---my friend--Jaguar knew that as of 1968 they would not be able to import the MK2--full stop! They were developing the XJ6 which would replace --well all of the sedans. You have read what the US wanted in Dougdale's account. So knowing the new requirements for DOT and the US desire to "normalize" models the 340 was requested. My son's car was built in late 66. The certificate shown is in fact WRONG. No MK2 or 340 (small bumper) could be imported in 1968--they were not in compliance. The fact the JHT stated this only serves to illustrate the lack of understanding of the history an the US market. Jaguar could have placed any badge on a MK2 in 1968 and it would not have been in compliance. Most works on Jaguar are done by English authors from a home market understanding. Only Skilleter understood the markets. As to the small bumper 340 the ROW got them in 1968. The XJ6 development was slow--the US went through a period when there were NO new models for sedan--1968-70> While the XJ6 did show up in early 70 there was a long period (for dealers) with no option. It is possible the US market anticipated that and filled in what they could. As to the production of a badge it is super simple and super fast. This minute detail would never hold up anything.

 

I agree re import date, I don't think I ever mentioned import dates, I have referred to build dates, you say your son's car was built in 1966, but when was it first registered, I assume that you have a heritage certificate for that car ? That has to be an early US 340 by sales date, the sales literature seems to indicate that the US 340 was new in late 67 ?

Why is the certificate wrong, it says Built in 1967, there is no mention of import/export in 1968, so I am not getting why it is wrong.

 

Tilly if you read the Dougdale excerpt you should see this was a decision made in 1966. The 340 was avail in the US through 1967 and not just late. The biggest issue with the certificate is it suggests the cars were "re-badged" so they could be sold in 1968. those cars were already here as 340s and there was no -re-badging to escape the DOT requirements or for any other reason other than they had not been sold. As we have discussed the DMVs would easily title the car as a 68 if it was purchased in 68. Our DMVs are notorious and that is the kindest I can be about them. As far as the certificate of course we have one--the car was finished up in Nov of 1966 and dispatched in Dec or 66. As this car was fully optioned with all possible including AC it may have taken even longer than normal to build. Although the AC was added at the factory it is unclear how this was handled. While I would like to think it was don on the line it was so rare that may not have been true. About the only indication the factory was headed toward mass AC install is a relief on the LH inner fender that provides the necessary clearance to change the AC belt in the car. There is no factory document to date that covers that body change it is there on the cars from about 65 on.

 

Sorry George, I may be being stupid, the decision regarding the 340's may have been made in '66, but that is not clear in the excerpt you posted, it mentions the competition in 1966 but not the 340. We have already established that these were Mk2 old stock that was sold as a 340 in the US, if they could not be imported how could they have been changed at Coventry, or if they were going to produce them in Coventry why not give them the 340 Chassis numbers in the first place, or are we saying there was a glut of LHD Mk2's in the UK so they changed them and shipped them as 340's

The Mark X was re-engineered in the US and sold as the 420 so why not the Mk2 to 340.

Would you mind terribly posting the cert for your 340 for comparison, as this would be very interesting, does it show any notes like the other one ? Does it show as a Mk2 .

Interestingly the Fog lights I assume were a later addition as I thought these could not be sold in the US and were never offered as an option there.

 

Tilley they were not "old stock" Mk2s --I thought we cleared that up. The boot lids have only two sets of holes for the manuals--one above the lic. lamp plinth and one down on the RH side of the boot (340). If they were "old MK2" stock one set of holes would need to be filled--the engine size--and none of the correct cars show any sign. I will not ost the cert until I ask my son--his car. This cert comes from the NA archives but they work with the UK --but they gave up long ago trying to explain. --The MK 10 was not sold in the US as a 420 it was sold as a 420'G' as the 420 was also offered in 66-67.

As far as the foglamps the car was fully optioned although it is unclear if they were added by the distributor. The car has been in the family since it was one year old but that is no proof. As far as them not being an option they were always an option until DOT rules and were still legal but would have required a different switching arrangement--as said Jaguar were not going to put development $$$ into a car they knew would not be importable in a year. Tilly you are getting hung up on names and markets--suggest you re read all. A direct answer on the cert is it lists it as a MK2 which it should as it carries a MK2 vin. Again this was a US market decision in early 1966 which the factory did for their largest market!

 

Well George, quite frankly I do not know how many times this subject has been covered. My guess, after reading your response, is quite a lot. I have unfortunately, been assigned the task of trying to find out about this car as it belonged to my dad and he has recently passed away. I was trying to find out 1. How to list the car for sale MK2 340, MK2, or simply 340. (as mentioned in the original post)
2. What the value might be for a price to sell the car. I found this site and thought, I'm sure there is a ton of knowledge and advise here. My father loved this car. I am just trying to do right by him and not get taken advantage of by under or over pricing the vehicle.
I have learned a ton from everyone who has responded. I thank each and everyone of you for your input. But I still don't know what to call it or how to price it.