Ok will do, I will have to go get a better scanner, cause my scanner is a cheap Amazon one.

 

how would I go about checking that system. I just got done checking every single fuse and relay and is car and all is good.

 

Yeah, that’s certainly part of the equation. On the bright side, we can rule out the pump being seized. But no pump at all? That wasn’t on my bingo card.

The no spark? Keep plugging away. You’ll find it.

 

I just confirmed this on my ‘02 V6. The tach needle stayed on zero while the starter was engaged.

Wasn’t able to get definitive answer with my scanner. The response rate was too slow to show anything before the engine started.

 

Watch the red LED on top of the dash to see if any security codes are stored. Here's how the light is supposed to behave if all is good and no faults are present:

First, lock the car with the key fob. Press the lock button a second time to set the alarm system. The horn should chirp once. Watch the little red light. It should flash once every few seconds or so to show the system is armed. Now press the key fob unlock button twice to unlock all the doors. The red light should go out. Now hop in the driver's seat and turn the key to RUN (Not start yet). The red light should come on solid ONCE for about 3 seconds and then go out. If it flashes anything after that, you've got a stored fault

 

Ok I will do that here shortly. I just went and got a brand new coil and tested for spark and still nothing, so my coil packs are good.

As far as the fuel pump goes, yes there is not pump in the car. I found someone that will test the PCM for me, if I cannot find an outside cause to the no spark problem. Worst case scenario the PCM will go off for testing and repair if need be.

 

I would not recommend drinking heavily before testing, especially so early in the day. You want to test with the circuit loaded, not you.

(Pause for laughter to die down)

So I had another thought. (I warned you I was just getting going...) I wonder if that voltage you measured was just meaningless backfeed from the switched ground in the PCM. I would be really curious what voltage is present while the starter is engaged and the coils are hopefully receiving the command to fire. If my latest theory is on the money, you will see that voltage drop way off.

If so, one more thing to check. At the front power distribution box, locate the Powertrain Control Relay #2. Careful with the location, as it is in position R3. (Very confusing). Place your finger on said relay while a helper turns the key to Run. There's a good chance this relay is not receiving the command to energize. Do the click test and if no response, I've got some further things to investigate. Other relays may click at the same time, so make sure the click is present at R3.

 

oh trust me I’ve already gone through a 12 pack of beer over the past 2 days because of this car.

anyways I will definitely check them loaded and see what voltage I get as someone cranks the car. I’m hoping to see anything above 12v. As far as the PCM sending the signal for the coils to fire, I have no idea if it is or not.

I did already check the PCM relay so see if it clicks or not and it does. I’ve check every single fuse in all 3 fuse boxes and found no blown ones. I’ve check all the relays to see if they click (all the relays that are important to my problem that is), and they all seem to be working as they should.

now if that voltage drops way off on the coils when I crank the car, what should I check out next? I would assume the battery.

 

One possibility is arcing at the contacts of that Powertrain Control Relay 2, mischievously located at position R3.

If it passes the click test, that only proves it is receiving the command to energize. It does not confirm the internal contacts are making a good connection and sending full battery power to the coils and other components.

Here is an example of a failed relay:




This relay would have passed the click test. The contacts were arcing and restricting power output, though. But most likely a voltmeter would have shown a normal reading in an unloaded circuit. Only a minuscule amount of current is needed to drive the meter so you get a misleading indication all is good. However, there’s not enough getting through to properly power the whole circuit. That’s why I keep preaching to check circuits under load whenever possible.

Often, it can be tricky to take a voltage reading under load. Once all connectors are assembled, there’s not always access to backprobe the contacts. In this common situation with a suspect relay, what is the next best thing? Swap it with a known good relay from another circuit.

Another gotcha is potential heat damage from a bad relay. Inspect the relay prongs for discoloration due to overheated contacts. This in turn can overheat the sockets in the panel, affecting the spring temper and reducing the grip. A marginal connection leads to more heat and more damage. Replacing just the relay typically isn’t enough. Often times the panel sockets need love, too.

 

So I gets to thinking. There was a fuel delivery problem, and the pump was to be replaced but they never finished. Cut to over a decade later, with no pump installed. The car obviously won’t start and in the process of troubleshooting, you discover no spark. That’s one of at least two separate problems, or is it? Could they be related?

The following is pure speculation on my part, and should be taken with a grain of salt big enough to choke a horse.

Deep in the logic path of the PCM, could there be a safety feature to inhibit the spark if no fuel pressure is detected? Maybe the logic is there may be a massive fuel leak, so let’s not ignite it.

My hunch is this is only active during a start sequence. If already running, and a valid fuel pressure signal is lost, the engine may continue running. The PCM is likely to infer everything else still seems normal and a sensor problem is likely. It’s not going to kill the engine due to a single component failure and leave you powerless on a busy road.

But what if the logic is different during engine start? Theoretically you’re already parked in a safe spot. There’s no danger in preventing the engine from starting. Inconvenient? Irritating? Yep x2. But dangerous, in case of a major fuel leak? Possibly, so let’s inhibit the ignition to be on the safe side.

Would such a logic decision even be annunciated to the driver? Probably not. In the designer’s mind, you’ll be calling the dealer for repair. The lack of fuel pressure will quickly be discovered during normal troubleshooting. Once that is repaired, the ignition inhibit is automatically cancelled and the engine fires up as normal.

Far-fetched? I dunno. Maybe somebody more in the know will hurt themselves laughing at my speculation. But this does lead us back to one of the basic rules of troubleshooting: Fix the known problems before digging too deeply elsewhere. And the lack of a fuel pump is definitely a problem.

 

I am going to go out to the car now and check all the relays for burning or anything else that’s not normal.

i will keep the thread updated.

 

do you have rpm on your scan tool when cranking

yes or no

 

Thinking this has been another drive-by…