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As far as the 420G cars just having chrome (SS actually) bolted on in the US please see the IPL for the 420G. It is some 20 pages of foolscap single spaced of new parts--it of course falls back on J 36 for other parts as normal with Jaguar. Quite a bit more than a couple lines of chrome. While there have been stories of MK X cars being "re-stamped" as 420G cars no real evidence has been shown other than bodies still in white metal receiving that at the factory prior to paint and assembly--that seems reasonable as there are far too many changes from the MK X to the 420G to allow a simple stamp and rivet!
George , are you saying that the Mark X was not re-engineered in the US despite the quote from Lyons in Dugdale's book, or are you saying they were shipped back to the UK, re-engineered and sent back, or are you saying that this quote from Lyons himself is a fabrication ?
Tilley it is customary to provide a page ---are you looking at a first or second edition of JiA?
The IPL which I provided a copy of the cover is a UK document and is a "supplement" to the MK X parts manual. Please provide that cite before you ask if I think something is a fabrication.
OK found a first edition. Second edition is p 121 so book was expanded considerably. What I take from the whole passage is that the US dealers were not ordering the cars due to the horrid experience with the Marston radiators. While I do not doubt Lyon's quote, it is a bit simplistic to assume he meant to pop rivet 'side chrome". Not sure if you or many understand how Jaguar then--and now import cars. The US has tariff free zones in which cars are imported and held prior to dispatch. In these tax free zones most importers have extensive rectification/compliance facilities. When Lyon's stated this he was saying the cars would be brought up to 420G specs which as I suggested via the IPL were extensive. Service kits could have been supplied from the Factory and the few MK X sitting there could have been converted --at Lyon's expense. The cars that have been mentioned as being stamped with a "G" to my knowledge have all been found in Canada. this is expected as during that period (as now) Jaguar Canada was very small. It only made good business sense for Canada to order from stock in the US tax free zone. My point is the "conversion" of however few cars to 'G' spec it was extensive work and cost on the factory. My 'G' is a May 67 "home delivery' (bought in the UK on a tax free program (given UK # NDU 149E). So to answer your question directly I am sure Lyons said that and am sure he meant it. Were there any MK Xs sitting in port at the time--who knows. The dealers would not necessarily but the distributors and Jaguar US would have. Whatever the kit to convert was it is clear it was developed in the UK and not the US. I will look in the Hornburg files and see if any numbers are mentioned. So Hornburg refers to the 420G and issues as early as Nov.1966. there are no Vins mentioned.
So were there cars converted in the port---possibly. Was Lyons determined to move the cars--absolutely. How many if any cars were in fact converted--good research to ask. I have an E mail into a Jaguar Executive in Coventry at the time--yes one is still very much alive--and will see if he has any information. Further have an e mail into the holder of all the notes for the Dougdale work to see if there are further documents.
Glad we have moved on from the 340/ MK2 issue!!!!!!!!
[Reen lastly if the interior shot is of your car there is a clear indicator it was a US car---it has the Lucas 4 way flasher that became mandatory in 1966 I believe. Could look up the Bulletin but out of allotted time at this point![/QUOTE]
This is the interior of the MarkII/340 that I have.
Reen it also looks like the car has a version of AC--could you take some pics of the controls---the evaporator--the outlets ---and the compressor and fan resistors. You have a version I have not seen before--well at least the controls!
OK found a first edition. Second edition is p 121 so book was expanded considerably. What I take from the whole passage is that the US dealers were not ordering the cars due to the horrid experience with the Marston radiators. While I do not doubt Lyon's quote, it is a bit simplistic to assume he meant to pop rivet 'side chrome". Not sure if you or many understand how Jaguar then--and now import cars. The US has tariff free zones in which cars are imported and held prior to dispatch. In these tax free zones most importers have extensive rectification/compliance facilities. When Lyon's stated this he was saying the cars would be brought up to 420G specs which as I suggested via the IPL were extensive. Service kits could have been supplied from the Factory and the few MK X sitting there could have been converted --at Lyon's expense. The cars that have been mentioned as being stamped with a "G" to my knowledge have all been found in Canada. this is expected as during that period (as now) Jaguar Canada was very small. It only made good business sense for Canada to order from stock in the US tax free zone. My point is the "conversion" of however few cars to 'G' spec it was extensive work and cost on the factory. My 'G' is a May 67 "home delivery' (bought in the UK on a tax free program (given UK # NDU 149E). So to answer your question directly I am sure Lyons said that and am sure he meant it. Were there any MK Xs sitting in port at the time--who knows. The dealers would not necessarily but the distributors and Jaguar US would have. Whatever the kit to convert was it is clear it was developed in the UK and not the US. I will look in the Hornburg files and see if any numbers are mentioned. So Hornburg refers to the 420G and issues as early as Nov.1966. there are no Vins mentioned.
So were there cars converted in the port---possibly. Was Lyons determined to move the cars--absolutely. How many if any cars were in fact converted--good research to ask. I have an E mail into a Jaguar Executive in Coventry at the time--yes one is still very much alive--and will see if he has any information. Further have an e mail into the holder of all the notes for the Dougdale work to see if there are further documents.
Glad we have moved on from the 340/ MK2 issue!!!!!!!!
Thank you for explaining that so eloquently George and for taking the time, I do know how the car market works here which is exactly as you describe above and also applies to imports too, I have a friend that works in the Honda unit doing exactly this here in the UK, parts/kits are sent from Japan for the facility to fit/install in the UK, all of which are at Honda's expense.
If Hornburg did take those 75 Mark X's I wonder how many of those were converted also !
Almost moved from the MK2/340 issue ! Do we now agree that this may have been exactly the same for the Mk2's and some too would have been converted by the facilities in the US, this is not to say that this was not done in the UK too, but it would seem logical that stock in the US would be converted in the US.
Tilley not sure where the 75 number comes from. As far as the MK2/340 no car has surfaced as such. Forget the fact that at least every bootlid would have to be resprayed it is the interior--the transmission--the steel wheels--and on and on! US dealers ordered MK2s in one and only one way---fully loaded. That meant 3.8 L engines--wire wheels and so on. I have not seen a 3.4 L MK2 ordered for the US ----ever. I have seen one 2.4L but it was ordered for the British consulate then passed on. So to answer you directly any MK2s in stock in a US port would have had either an automatic or a 4 speed with o/d --leather interior and if manual wire wheels. Automatics seem to have been 50/50 with wire wheels--and all always chrome! So badge holes aside the interior would not have been ripped out and the wheels would not have been converted. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that customer orders would easily be filled--prior to that the dealers would simply say--"I will take 25 XJ6s fully equipped". When my son was born I ordered an X300---short wheel base full factory delete--no sunroof--no memory anything--even no CD player. One would have thought I was ordering world peace--heck even my dealer said" do not think we can do that" --well they could and did--son drives that bullet proof car today to college--and the sunroof has never leaked! Tilley my point is the market here is MUCH different than the home market--then and now. No Jaguar ever sold here had cloth seats just like AC in the UK was an option--not here. I will check but I bet I can not order any current Jaguar model w/o ac--I know no sedan can be ordered w/o a sun roof--tried already! So no in that case I am sure they were not converted!
Reen looks very proper exeept the "kidney" plate has been changed--perhaps the chrome gave up--common. Here are some pics for you. Hope you can share some. I wrote the early AC guide for JCNA but have found several variants--seems more so between add on "approved" kits and factory installed ones--yours looks factory. One small comment--why is there a pressure cap on your PS res.? Is there a problem there?
If you need a template for the kidney plate write me off line!
Yes I am. I have used it since I watched a Dow experiment in the "Imperial Army of Europe" USAEUR. I had my E type there and the DOW folks converted my car for a lark. I had no issues with the brakes from 1979 to 1991. The only issue is DOT 4 is very hard on Brake light switches as it insulates the switch--but they are simple to change and cost nothing. I do flush every 2 or 3 years and use the bleed off on tires and hoses! The only car I have ever had an issue with was a 120 that had a hot engine--I had to insulate the MC to cure it. Of course for those reading with ABS--it is a non starter!
Tilley not sure where the 75 number comes from. As far as the MK2/340 no car has surfaced as such. Forget the fact that at least every bootlid would have to be resprayed it is the interior--the transmission--the steel wheels--and on and on! US dealers ordered MK2s in one and only one way---fully loaded. That meant 3.8 L engines--wire wheels and so on. I have not seen a 3.4 L MK2 ordered for the US ----ever. I have seen one 2.4L but it was ordered for the British consulate then passed on. So to answer you directly any MK2s in stock in a US port would have had either an automatic or a 4 speed with o/d --leather interior and if manual wire wheels. Automatics seem to have been 50/50 with wire wheels--and all always chrome! So badge holes aside the interior would not have been ripped out and the wheels would not have been converted. It has only been in the last 20 years or so that customer orders would easily be filled--prior to that the dealers would simply say--"I will take 25 XJ6s fully equipped". When my son was born I ordered an X300---short wheel base full factory delete--no sunroof--no memory anything--even no CD player. One would have thought I was ordering world peace--heck even my dealer said" do not think we can do that" --well they could and did--son drives that bullet proof car today to college--and the sunroof has never leaked! Tilley my point is the market here is MUCH different than the home market--then and now. No Jaguar ever sold here had cloth seats just like AC in the UK was an option--not here. I will check but I bet I can not order any current Jaguar model w/o ac--I know no sedan can be ordered w/o a sun roof--tried already! So no in that case I am sure they were not converted!
The 75 Mark X's are from Lofty England's quote re Hornburg.
I think we are at cross purposes, as far as I am talking any US340 is a Mk2/340 with a new boot lid and badge, there are several of these your son's being one of them.
We have agreed that there were drastic changes made to the Mark X in the US to change it to the 420G, if it were customary to have the MK2's fully loaded, then it would follow that the 340 could also be fully loaded, it is documented in JIA, referring to the 340, that the Americans did not want a "Cheap" Jaguar, so if they did want one would they not want it fully loaded, all the options were available for the 340, the work required would not be to the same extent as the Mark X especially as they were never to produce the UK340 for the US, so this is absolutely feasible.
However the main point you do make is that you feel there were NO 3.4 Mk2's in the US, period. That is an interesting point, I have not had a chance to research that, so that does raise a question, if the cars were re-engineered in the UK they obviously used surplus stock LHD cars, why only the US ? and why no records at the factory ? If they were already fully spec'd and destined for the US then they would have to re-engineer them in the UK, but your son's is fully loaded AND 1966 built, the other cars I have found that are '66 built are sold around a year later, what are the dates re your sons car ? Does it have leather seats and wire wheels ?
I have never seen a build sheet, could you ask your son if he doesn't mind sharing this info please.
Oh no ! More questions sorry. It will be interesting if your emails to the Hornburg guy and UK throw up more information. I will do some more digging re 3.4's in the US, but if you haven't got the info somewhere I am not sure I can find any, did you read my post re chassis number range for these US340's, does anyone know if there are MK2's in the US or anywhere else that fall in that chassis number range I can't believe that all the cars in that range were converted to 340's.
I have not found figures for unit sales to the US of the Mk2 or 340 easily, but they must exist somewhere.
[QUOTE=George Camp;1787831]Reen looks very proper exeept the "kidney" plate has been changed--perhaps the chrome gave up--common. Here are some pics for you. Hope you can share some. I wrote the early AC guide for JCNA but have found several variants--seems more so between add on "approved" kits and factory installed ones--yours looks factory. One small comment--why is there a pressure cap on your PS res.? Is there a problem there?
No, there is no problem with the power steering. It's been there as long as I can remember. I would have to go through all my dad's car service receipts.
My husband said years ago (1980's or so) when it was serviced they lost the cap. This was the one that they found that would fit the car. It's been on there ever since. Power steers fine.
Tilley again please --where is the Quote? Sons car has wires--AC--fogs--etc but has Ambla and 3.4 L with 4 speed. O/d was optionable but his does not have it. As I said in a previous post I have no Idea why the car was ordered this was as the total bill was almost that of a 420. If you go back to the marketing it makes sense--they wanted to sell an entry level 340--then 420---then 420G. the fact the US market did not want a cheap car withstanding that was offered. Think X-Type (huge mistake) or think of the 2.4 L saloon which the US dealers passed on as they knew there would be a 3.4. We are not at cross purposes it is just the market! There are two leather parts on the car---(seals excluded) one is the rear seat pull down tab and the other is the dog collar that holds the Jack peg to the screw. Of course his car has AC so the jack came in an E-Type bag as the mount bracket on the bulkhead was either removed or deleted. I would have to remove the AC unit to find out and at this time that is not happening.
Tilley one thing you need to keep in mind is the only reason Jaguar offered 2.4,3.4 and 3.8 L engines during that period was for road tax reasons. In the US there was no such displacement tax--simply one on value and the difference was minimal. Why would you buy a 3.4 when a 3.8 cost the same practically? When the XJ6 came out (and remember the dealers were being promised this in late 67 it was avail in 2.8, 3.4 (I think) and 4.2, All of the US XJ6 imports were 4.2 with automatic and those with AC were rear Air. Funny thing the XJ6 received global awards when in fact the XJ6 was a 420G with Rand P steering and one less carb than the 420'G'. Otherwise --trim excepted and body shape the XJ6 was a 420'G'.
