Hi All,
I have an 2007 X-Type, with about 29K miles that I purchased a few months ago. It is my second X-Type, mainly because I loved my first one. Although I have had no problems at all with this car so far, I know from that first experience that they can be quirky. Last week, I came out to start the car... and nothing. Immediately I thought "dead battery". No starter flutter, nothing. Just eerie silence. On the third try, I put the key in the first position, and everything electrical booted up. The radio, the dash lights, etc. And then I pushed it through to the starting position, and voila... she started right up, but the battery light was on. I took her home, and the next morning we went straight to the mechanic. And she started immediately, no battery light, and we drove there with no issues. They tested the alternator and battery. Both were good, according to the read outs. Oh, if only that were the end of the story.

After leaving the mechanic, I stopped by the store. Came out and it was back to the same story. Won't start, except for turning the key to position one and allowing the electrical items to boot up. I took it back to the mechanic and their diagnostic guy was there by this time. It was throwing weird codes as well. The battery light was still on. It was joined by a new yellow light that said "Cruise not available" that has not reappeared since. His code reader got something about a fuel pump and a few others I can't recall that were seemingly unrelated. He replaced the battery and, lo, that seemed to have solved the issue. No warning lights or codes, starts right up, etc. Oh, if only that were the end of the story.

Today is the first day I went to start the car after the new battery. We're back to not starting normally. The work around of pushing to position one and allowing a boot up did work, and the battery light was on the whole time I drove. I'm not 100% that the work around is what is driving the eventual start or maybe it's just coincidence or perhaps "third times a charm" coming into play. I haven't had time to test the hypothesis.

TLDR: Car does not even turn over unless first turning key to "position 1" and allowing electrical systems to boot, after which it starts right up after pushing the key to position 2.

Has anyone else had this issue? Any advice?

Thanks!

 

Our cars are known to have battery cable problems. Our Mr. Thermo (the master) likes you to turn on ALL the electrical items to put a big draw on the electrical system. After 15 minutes test your cables and battery terminals to see if they are hot. CAUTION they can become VERY not and burn you. If hot they need to be replaced.

Our cars are also known to have grounding problems, so a good cleaning is in order.

 

Yup, cable. When you turn everything on, lights, air blower (a/c or heat), rear defrosters, seat warmers, it's with the car running for 15 minutes. Shut off and CUP your hand over cables to see temperature. Most probably the positive cable. As Thermo suggests, remove the offending cable take to local auto parts store to buy the appropriate length. Longer ok, shorter = NOT. The positive (if it's the one) has other attachments that can be left alone. Just run the new one from starter post to battery.

I had this problem a while ago when doing lighting mods for hours. Just the drain of interior lights on with car not started was enough to kick off the "battery light" on start up. Drove a ways with it constantly on, checked the temp and it was fraking cooking hot. I cheated the fix by spraying fluid film into the battery sheathing while hot several times. My reasoning was while it was so hot it would migrate down the wiring inside to the corrosion further inside the cable. It worked for me, been around 2 years with no reoccurring battery light.

 

Personality, it is likely a battery cable issue. But, I have another idea and it is going to sound right in line with what you are experiencing. I am wondering if you have a computer that has lost its battery power and now only gets power when in the accessory/RUN positions. So, what is happening is with the car running, the computer shares power between the battery and switched power points. When you turn off the car, the switched power source goes away and most computer have a battery supply to keep their computer brains and memory intact. But, in your case, you have a computer that is loosing that. So, when you turn the ignition to the first position, that supplies the power to this computer and then allows it to get booted up to allow starting of the car. Because of your symptoms, this is leading me to think that you have a problem most likely with either the instrument cluster or the ECU. If you notice that your Trip meter or fuel mileage is reset, then this would be indicative of the instrument cluster loosing power. Where, if you have those, then I would be leaning towards the ECU. This is where I would be putting a multimeter on the wires into the modules and if you are seeing a voltage difference between the battery power and the switched 12 VDC power, then I would be looking at the wire with the lower voltage.

 

I think we should all start calling you "professor Thermo"!! :-) :-) :-)

 

Dell, I play with electronics all day long. So, I learn how these things work and some of the quirks that you don't necessarily see every day. I also tend to look at problems a slightly different way than most. Most people go "I have a noise on part A, therefore, must be a bad part A". I ask a slightly different question(s): "noise is coming from part A, what are all of the things that can cause part A to make a noise and how do I prove that those are not causing the noise". yes, some times it takes a bit more work. But, how many times have you jumped on the obvious and found that you are replacing something else. The other thing I use is past experience. LIke with the battery terminals, sometimes you don't need to think too hard on it. But, if you notice, almost all of my fixes have a "prove something good and prove something bad to then replace the part in the middle". Some of my checks are not necessarily obvious ones (like making a car turn left and right to prove a wheel bearing starting to go). but, there is logic to things.

 

Larry, Dell and Thermo -

Thank you all so much for your quick replies! I am always impressed by (and grateful for) the wealth of knowledge here in the forums. Headed back to my mechanic today, and I will keep you updated.

 

Hello Again!

So it has been almost three months, and I am still struggling with this issue, unfortunately.

Here is an update of what has happened since I last posted:

I have had this car to three different shops (a European Auto specialty shop, a national chain, and my local neighborhood very trusty mechanics). Almost without fail, they all have trouble reproducing the problem because the car starts right up. The national chain shop started it 50 times in a row with no issues whatsoever, and it was a bit embarrassing. There are times it starts right up for me as well – maybe 50% of the time) but there doesn’t seem to be any discernable pattern as to what makes this happen vs. not.

• Local shop cleaned the battery cable connections meticulously and did the test Thermo suggested to see if the cables were the issue. They did not get hot, so we moved on to the next possible culprit.
• Two of the three shops (local and European) indicated that the alternator output was running high. Replaced the alternator with my local shop, and it did not fix the starting issue.
• Here are the notes from the European Specialty shop (which was prior to replacing the alternator):

after several attempts was able to duplicate customers concern. took 2 ignition cycles before starter engaged also red battery light would stay on in dash once engine started. Alternator voltage is high 15.3 volts at idle. need to scan ecm for faults, load test battery and check alternator wiring, problem is intermittent, started vehicle second time and red battery light would not stay on.

Found faults codes p1146-Generator low input, p1629-Generator failure. unable to test vehicle when battery light is on dash problem is intermittent. also suspect vehicle to have an intermittent no start when ignition key is turned to start position, possibly stuck relay or starter.

• Per my local shop, the code(s) that appeared when the check engine light was on indicated some sort of failure of communication between ECM/TCM. I really, really do not want it to be that. ☹ This was just last week and long after the alternator was replaced.
• In the past month or so, it has become the case that my original workaround of putting the key in the accessory position doesn’t always succeed. I sometimes I have to try 5-6 times before I get the appropriate conditions (whatever they are) to start.
• When using the workaround, I noticed that there is a particular hum or buzz, or sometimes even a small “pop” that I hear that portends a start. It seems to come from right behind the middle vents. It is one of the last things in the series of “boot up” actions that occurs when I put the key in the accessory position – first lights/dashboard come alive, then touch screen/radio, and then the sound.
• The message that displays most often is “Gearbox Fault”. I also get the check engine light and battery light somewhat randomly upon startup.
• I have 3 keys for this car. I’ve tried each and it doesn’t seem to make any difference in the behavior.
• I did notice there is a slight “catch” or stickiness when turning the key now and then. However, no clear relationship to whether the start will be successful.
• On occasion, it will start and almost immediately die. There have also been a few times that it has died while in idling in park, even after having run for a while. It has not died while driving. (Thankfully!)
• Conversely, there have been times when I push the key to start position, nothing happens initially (dead silence) and if I hold it there for 3-4 seconds, it has surprisingly engaged and started.

The biggest issue is that no one seems to know with any certainty what is going on with this car, and therefore it is hard to move forward with anything. So far the only thing that they agreed on was the alternator but that was a non-starter (pun intended). I called the nearby dealership and was told that they do not work on anything older than 2011. There is another dealership about 40 miles away, but I’m afraid even if I manage to go there, it will be big bucks in exchange for no definitive answers and I will be no better off than I am now.

I would love to hear your thoughts on what I should do next. I really enjoy this car, but I need it to start reliably. Any help is greatly appreciated!!

 

So firstly your alternator replacement was bogus because the "shop" didn't understand the X Type charging system.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...nation-202162/

Second you/they checked the "too hot" battery cable(s) on heavy load and was negative, so good there.

Third would be checking the cable connection at the starter and make sure it's shiney clean and tight.

Fourth MIGHT be as member spike is chasing down a possible ignition switch and/or tumbler problem. Particularly where it dies after start immediately or while idling. Ruminate on car runs with spark and fuel.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...-246481/page3/

Fifth might be a relay that is failing in the hood fuse box that sometimes fails at powerup and not at others.

Sixth and most outlandish GUESS would be your inertia switch is intermittent/failing.

The vent "pop" is most likely something in the climate control dragging or off a little (think vents positioning controls) as that is one of the last things that "turns on" at ignition. Bet if you shut off the climate control before trying another start, it wouldn't be heard.

 

Dell, I was thinking the same thing as your #4. This and Spike's issue sound an aweful alot alike. Granted, Spike has it down to the tumbler (which I am still not quite getting how that can be). But, what it is looking like.

Personality, what a fellow member (Spike) has found with his car is if he puts the key in, turns it to the START position and then moves the key around (pulling it out slightly or trying to make the key go to a different angle), it will cause the car to sometimes start. You may want to wiggle the key around some as you are attempting to start the car and see if this duplicates what he is seeing.

 

These are exactly my symptoms. Right down to holding the key for 4 seconds of dead silence and then have it come normally on. Only additional symptom I suddenly started having is dying at low speed when coming to a stop

I expect whatever the solution is for one car, it will be for the other.

 

Hi Michelle,

I am just going to put up a possible theory for some of the other members to mull over.

To the greater brains trust; If you are glancing at this thread, can you have a quick think on this scenario?
Is it possible that with the gearbox fault codes and charging light issue appearing on Michelle's instrument cluster, along with the intermittent no start, that there could be an intermittent comms issue in this car.
Could it be the TCM might have incurred some historical water contact courtesy of the heater dripping with cabin filter incorrectly fitted or accumulated debris in the cabin intake....... A.K.A. the wet floor scenario I have seen written about?

Michelle; have you ever noticed that you had wet front foot well carpets beneath the heater if the car had been sitting in the rain or gone through a carwash?

If so, it might be worth quickly pulling out the TCM and opening it up to see if there is any sign of corrosion 'growth' on the socket pins inside or out of the TCM, or on the PCB itself as it can get that water ingress reaching it.
That type of corrosion can also change its conductivity with various climatic heat and moisture changes and if it happens to be affecting the CAN Bus, you could have a myriad of oddities created due to comms breaking down or struggling between modules.