Aesthetics is subjective. Otherwise how can one explain the new Acura designs!

 

and weak management kill great design, if it was ever there in the first place. "Let the customer have a say" usually means the real decision-makers are too afraid of losing their jobs to make a decision so use market research to make it for them. It's why the XF looks just like the Lexus ES350, which looks like a Hyundai, which looks like an Infiniti, which looks like a VW CC, etc...

 

Hi guys, This thread got alittle rough, I think we all have a opinion and we all should enjoy other peoples outlook on things, rather if we agree or not. That being said, I never had a chance to test out the new M56. I did own a 2006 M45 sport which I liked but in my opinion it was missing the SPORT. It was a nice car with the ground effect package, "It Looked the part". I really miss the Nav as well as the exit/entry system. But what the jag had, won me over after the test drive. When the 2010 hit the street, Jag had the better ride and much more HP with the supercharger. 470 HP is just where I wanted to be for now. Another thing that really got me was the sound of the exhaust when I stepped on it.. My infiniti was quite, even at speed and you felt the bumps over harsh roads with its 19's and active steer.. Lastly infiniti didn't have a level you could step up to if you wanted more. The M45 sport was as far as you could go for its size and class.. I think they spent more time making the G37/Nissan Z their go fast cars. NISMO had more go fast mods for "G" & "Z" but nothing beyond that. I was able to upgrade the exhaust which gave it a better sound from stillen but it still didn't hold a candle to my 10 XF supercharged. The only thing that worried me was jags realiability. In the end, after alot of thought, The Jag had what I was looking for in this segement. I think Jaguar, just does a better job with merging luxo with sport... Just my Opinion....

 

The editors at Automobile Mag think the Infiniti looks better ("Indeed, next to the slinky, catlike Infiniti, the Jaguar is rather bland and staid."). Kid D thinks it looks better. Infiniti has already managed to sell a few and it's probably pretty safe to think it will outsell the XF. A lot of factors go into the purchase of a car, but presumably, a fair number of those who buy the M will think it's the better looking car. I've seen plenty of online commentary criticizing the looks of the XF so that faction definitely exists.

Of course IMO the XF looks waaaaay better than the new M.

 

I bet the reference to the Infiniti looking like a 'slinky cat' while the XF as bland was deliberate. Many Jaguar enthusiasts feel the current styling is not 'jaguar like'. They feel the new XF and XJ are a step back from their previous xj/ x type styling.

I am sure Infiniti will outsell Jag, not so sure the M56 will outsell the XF. the XF appears to be selling well in it's category. In fact Jaguar pulled of a nice profit and had high double digit growth last quarter.

The XJ is indeed a little boxy. I have an XF and an X Type. Most people I know, including my wife think the x type looks nicer!

 

If you parked a new XF next to an old X Type as I did before I made the switch you would see very clearly where the traditional Jaguar design has been carried forward into the XF. The secret of good design is to save and re-use the old and add the required dash of brand new. No Japanese car does this, except for the Miata/MX5 and the older RX7. The new RX 8 is interesting but ultimately not pretty. The Datsun (Nissan) 240Z had this, the new 350/370Z do not. The GTR is a plain ugly brute. No Lexus looks good. The original IS 250/350 were at least honest shapes and the new versions are tolerable but ultimately dull.

Frankly, the reason Jaguar did so poorly after Ford took over was that Ford of America thought everyone wanted old fashioned looking Jaguars. They were wrong.

One look at US car design tells you why US car buyers are unable to discern good styling. Of all the US manufacturers only the Corvette stands out as an attractive car. The Japanese do well in the US because they understand that bland sells well in the US.

 

If that's the case explain why BMW, Bentley, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, Porsche, etc, sell in record numbers in US. The challenge is to price better designed cars at lower price points - something Hyundai has grasped already, and Ford and Buick are making good progress with more distinctive designs.

 

The current crop of Jaguars were designed while Ford was still running jag/ land rover. New models take years of planning.

The mistake Ford made with the x type or S Type was that they introduced cars in markets and didn't update it for years when their competitors were offers way more options, frequent updates and advertisement. In the US the biggest difference was financing. I read that 95% of BMW 3 series sales in the US are leases. While the x type had similar MSRP as a 3 series or C Class, the competition could be had on lease for often $100 to $150 less a month. The US entry level market is all about financing. People are leasing even with 0% APR!

Anyway that's water under the bridge now....

 

By about 40%.

 

Better designed cars at lower price points? Bentley, Ferrari?

There are some US buyers who buy superior European products, however, most of those purchases are status purchases.

The real test is how many US designed cars succeed overseas. How many? Zero!

 

The X Type was an antiquated body design when it was released in 2002. Failure to update it had nothing to do with the problems it had.

Ford cleverly sold Jaguar just when the product was being re-designed for success.

GM also killed car brands with the same sort of management style, ironically, they also killed off their own American brands!!! Hopeless.

 

Personally I couldn't care less if they Jaguar was slower, had less power, had less interior room, and was doing badly as a company.
An Infiniti is such a common car, there is nothing about an Infiniti that says "oooh look at me"
Don't get me wrong they are good cars, they will get you from point A to point B just like a camry, but its no Jaguar.
A Jaguar is a much more sophisticated and classy car. It shows elegance and is usually a little rarer than an Infiniti.
Personally, the choice would be simple. Sophisticated, or Just another car.

 

I could certainly be wrong. I guess time will tell. Infiniti sold twice as many Ms as Jag sold XFs in July in North America. Granted, the M is a newer car.

 

Nevermind.

 

As usual Jagular you can't string a logical argument together with supporting facts to save your life.

Your question about cars designed in the US is laughable. The European car companies all have West Coast studios that compete to design the next Polo or Astra or Fiesta, and European studios compete to design US market cars, so car design is global. And in part your XF was designed in Orange County, CA...

And if your argument were about vehicles built and exported from US you lose that one too. BMW and Mercedes would be somewhat irritated to see you forget their factories in Spartanburg and Tuscaloosa.

And if you're saying the middle class in America has no taste for good design then explain why they buy and lease Audi's, BMW's, Jaguars and Mercedes? And let's not forget the "cheap" seats shall we? Maybe you don;t care that VW sells Golfs and Tiguans, and BMW sells truck loads of Mini's to America's less financially fortunate.

So what exactly is your argument? Let's see if you can articulate it clearly and provide some proven verifiable facts to support it. So far your scrambled egg offering looks a little runny and is heading in multiple directions off the plate...

 

Ok, easy please . I will let jagular has his say otherwise I would close this thread down . Everyone has different tastes as well as thoughts

 

There is no reply to disjointed and illogical argument.

The US BMW plants build SUVs. I think they may still build the Z4 but the quality of that product is less than the German products.

No part of the Jaguar XF was designed in California.

My point is that no US designed car sells well in Europe. None, nada, zero. My contention is this is because US car companies design inadequate cars.

 

And here's one for you. PAG - if you know what that was - had a suite of design studios on Orange County. Any vehicle - Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land-Rover, Volvo and Lincoln Mercury were partially styled here, and were signed off here by Peter Horbury.

When you have facts to back up the rest of your assertions bring them here and share them.

 

Here are the top selling cars in Europe from a 2009 automotive report. The data reports number of units sold. Notice anything that may contradict your assertions?

1. VW Golf 470,399
2. Peugeot 207 413,881
3. Ford Focus 384,619
4. Opel/Vauxhall Corsa 374,355
5. Renault Clio 367,211
6. Ford Fiesta 342,027
7. Opel/Vauxhall Astra 338,618
8. Fiat Punto 286,935
9. VW Polo 284,385
10. VW Passat 264,008

Here's a link with statistics from 2006-2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_10_...cars_in_Europe

 

No. The Ford Fiesta is European and built in Poland and Mexico. No US design input except marketing.

The Ford Focus in Europe is a different car from the Focus in North America. The US one is awful and the English one is brilliant. Why Ford produced yet another loser Focus for North America only is baffling. Finally, they realized the Fiesta should sell here since the almost identical Mazda 2 and the FIAT 500/Panda(? can't be sure which other FIAT body uses the Fiesta platform) are planned for the US also.

No North American built Focus would sell in Europe. No Mexican built Fiestas will go to Europe as Poland can produce as many as Europe can buy.

As for PAG, that would be Ford's crazy idea that Ford North America could somehow "improve" upon the European designs and is now completely defunct. Jag/Land Rover is owned by Tata of India and now doing well, Volvo is recently Chinese owned and Aston Martin is basically owned by the Middle Eastern investors and profitable.

"Signing off" has nothing to do with the actual design. Arguably, Ford US meddling in the design process is what caused them to lose money on these brilliant cars in the first place, leading to sale of al three parts of the PAG.

The Jaguar XF is entirely Jaguar of England design. Ford built a very good car out of Jaguar S Type parts, the same parts that now underpin the XF except that the suspension has been adapted from the XJ/XK lines. However, that Lincoln LS was a dog in the sales department. Weird since it is the very best car Lincoln ever made in recent memory, had to be it was a cheap S Type with a bigger trunk. Ford US/Canada also built versions of the V8 and V6 engines but they were Ford of England and Ford of Germany designs. The V8 for Jaguar was and still is built in Ford's engine plant in Wales (which is in Europe BTW). The V6 Duratec was partly designed by Porsche Engineering. The old X Type was based on another Europe only Ford, the Mondeo, inexplicably never sold in the US. Aston Martin had nothing to do with Ford USA. The chassis was entirely Aston Martin and the engines were developed by Ford of Europe (Germany) and Cosworth, another English company.