Hey guys
Dropped a rebuilt AJ133 into a Land Rover. Only differences were the oil pan and pickup tube, so a win.
Everything hooked up, but been getting "P0019-00 (EC) crankshaft position-camshaft position correlation - bank 2, sensor 2"
Start up sounding nice, then gets ticked off and misfires etc.
The new motor came with new cam actuators, so left them in place. Installed ALL the old motors sensors.
Swapped the actuator on exhaust side of driver side bank (NAS).
No difference
Swapped all 4 cam sensors side to side to see if the code followed, it stayed at bank 2 sensor 2.
Looking at the live actual variable valve timing positions.....
ignition on engine off:
Bank 2 exhaust 120 degrees
Bank 1 exhaust 120
Bank 2 intake 76.1
Bank 1 intake 74.9

At idle:
Bank 2 exhaust 118 degrees
Bank 1 exhaust 71.3
Bank 2 intake 75.4
Bank 1 intake 75.7
Restricted performance is present obviously....lol
So when running it is going nuts, either on bank 1 or bank 2 exhaust camshaft
I can look at the wife's '11SC at idle and see which is the correct timing at idle, 118 or 71.3 for the exhaust.

This is a buddies rig, that ended up needing a motor after it jumped time and deposited exhaust valves into pistons.
I do have the timing tools, but would rather not open the motor up and tear down a "rebuilt" motor
Crank sensor possibly?
Ideas?

Martin

 

I had this issue after I rebuilt my engine - long story short, it turned out to be a faulty cam phaser, even though I fitted new ones when rebuilding. Required the re-removal of a lot of stuff to replace.

Mine all worked fine when the engine was cold, but then once it got warm, creeping forward on idle (presumably requiring a fair amount of advance/retard of the cams) would result in a restricted performance message and a similar code about cam/crank position correlation. I did the same as you - swapping sensors, swapping actuators - I even hooked a dual-channel scope up to each bank's actuators. All I was able to ascertain was that when the engine got warm, the R/H bank exhaust phaser "struggled to maintain" the angle of advance/retard that the ECU wanted from it (generally equal on both banks). you could track it slowly "lose power" over a period of a couple of seconds using the ECU Live Data, at which point the ECU would throw the code, go into Restricted Performance, and stop supplying any kind of signal to the actuators.

It sounds like you've done most of what you can do to rule out an electrical problem - the only thing I'd finally advise is to check that the relevant actuator wiring is getting a solid and consistent signal - using an oscilloscope or similar. You can get LCD digital ones off Amazon for around $100ish. If after that you've ruled out any electrical issue, then really it has to be a mechanical issue - which could be low oil pressure due to bearing tolerances, but this is highly unlikely to manifest on only one cam and in any case the engine manual makes a point that these newer design of phasers only require a supply of oil rather than pressure - they instead use the rotational force of the camshaft. However, the service manual also goes to great lengths to point out that if these phasers are subject to impact or dropped they need to be replaced - so they're obviously quite fragile.

I would hate to be the bearer of bad news, but based on my experience, you most likely have a faulty cam phaser, which requires disassembly of the timing gear to replace. Try to do anything you can to rule out an electrical issue before you dive in there though.

 

Well this is from the 2010 service manual. Have you checked the cam VCT solenoids?

 

I swapped in one from the "old" motor, that had zero faults

 

Cheers Dave
I have unfortunately come to the same conclusion mate.
I dont think the timing is at fault myself. The old phasers are still on the old cams, but also have new ones too.
Without a scope I think I've covered all the bases. Even swapped crank sensors with the wife's '11 sc tonight, same result. I did notice with her crank sensor that the difference was less, @115/89 vs @118/71, but enough to make it idle like crap and throw the code....

 

Yeah I came to the same conclusion with mine - if the timing was at fault (i.e. it was timed up wrong), I'd expect to have seen more codes than just a correlation issue with a single camshaft, and if it was a tooth out even on just one cam you'd definitely know.

Make sure you know the pitch of the chain (6.35mm or 8mm) before ordering a new phaser if the engine came from a Jaguar. As far as I can tell all the LR engines had 8mm chains, but earlier Jaguar AJ133s had both. I've noticed that the 6.35mm stuff is getting a lot harder to find now and prices are increasing accordingly - when I rebuilt my engine I converted to 8.0mm parts using LR parts (cheaper than the corresponding Jaguar parts) but I've seen a post about someone being charged in order to upgrade the auxiliary timing chain to all 8.0mm parts which implies at least one 6.35mm part isn't available any more...

 

Think I can measure chain width through the filler cap?
I had the passenger side valve cover off to put the "old" one back on, after it got here with a broken off PCV fitting.... would have been a good time to measure....LOL

 

Is there a way to change them without pulling it ALL apart as you would to do the whole timing set?
I see Alldata lists 10 hrs to do one phaser, which is a lot less than the whole timing set.

 

Sadly, the only way you'll change them is by removing tension from that bank's chain by removing the tensioner - and that can only be done with removal of the front timing cover, which itself can only be removed after you've removed the crank pulley, which can be a job in itself. You can probably loosen the valve cover enough to get the access you need at the front without having to remove it (meaning you don't have to pull injectors etc), but the bulk of the work is getting the front timing cover off. When I changed out my bad phaser I left the other bank's timing untouched, so it's not like you have to remove all the timing gear.

To clarify, the chain pitch is what you'll need to measure - it might be possible to do this through the oil fill hole, but given the amount of work to pull a phaser out you could probably just wait until it's out before ordering the replacement to ensure you get the correct one.

 

Well aren't you the bearer of bad news!
I've got the tools to do a full timing job, injector puller, front pulley removal tools, cam locks and so on. I just like how they look in the nice moulded case they all came in more than in my grubby mitts
I got this rig for a mate, with the expectation of doing all the timing...Paid less than $5k for a really nice '10 LR4 spec'd the way he wanted it. Which would get me a little practice for doing the wife's '11 sc. I didn't however expect him to push and hold the start button when I was getting it out of the shop. He munched the motor somehow. Timing was all still on it, just not the covers. Basically prepping it for the timing job. So a "simple" timing job ended up with a motor swap. I have all the parts including 4 new phasers. I was going to do the wifes with them though. He found a rebuilt Jag AJ133 out of SoCal for @$6k delivered, so went that route.
I'm a little bit of a LR obsessive, being from Blighty. We have my '98 that I dropped a LSx motor into, a '04 Disco on 37's with toyota FZJ80 axles, her '11 SC, and 2 spares rigs. Looks like a breakers yard when folks drive by lol

 

That makes two of us! I just passed my 6th year in the US.

If you have all the tools you won't have any problems. Just remember to check the direction of the crank pulley bolt

 

I moved here in '99 from St Annes, Lancs.
Well, found what I believe to be the culprit. Not sure HOW many times I see "if dropped or bumped, replace" where the phasers are concerned.
Sure enough, the exhaust cam was @30-40 degrees back when I pulled the covers with timing locked. All I can think was that the phaser retarded it and it stuck there.
After quadruple checking all the timing, that side is now perfect.
It's all back together now, just waiting on the owner returning with fresh synthetic oil. Then fill with coolant and oil and see what happens...Everything crossed!
Here is a mark on the exhaust phaser. Looks like it's been beat on to me.....

Will update when it (HOPEFULLY) starts

Martin

 

Great find, and yes - that's almost certainly the culprit. Good luck!

 

She's alive and running great! Quieter than the wife's '11sc......but shhhhhh
Even charged the AC, so all is well in the world.
Thanks for your help Dave

Martin

 

Awesome work Sir!