Excellent quote and expresses the principles used here.

 

I'm not willing to throw the mechanic under the bus just yet. The "fairy tales" were relayed to me via what I'm guessing are fairly incompetent service reps. I'm thinking the typical owner who comes in for service at a Jag dealer is not a "car guy", and thus the skills needed in that position are more people related than mechanical related.

When speaking directly with the mechanic, I was impressed that he was willing to admit that he wasn't 100% sure of what caused the problem. The fact that numerous other owners drive their S/C Jags in similar environments without issue indicates to me that it is probably not a design flaw. On the other hand, I can't help but think every morning when driving the car to work with similar temps (today was -6 deg F) that when I am ready to leave at the end of the day, am I going to have a car that will start???

 

I am impressed also with the honesty of the mechanic. That restores my faith in the individual to see that he wasn't playing you for a fool and was possibly thinking aloud.

As for a recurrence, I'm on the fence (at your expense) as to whether I want it to reoccur or not. Part of me would not want to see you go through more inconvenience, the other part wants it to happen again so that we may get to the bottom of 'how and why'- possibly revealing an additional piece of evidence or an overlooked factor from the first event.

It's obvious that there's at least two pseudo Sherlock Holmes here ready to leap into action (without going for each others throats).

 

I can't believe this happened to me again! I was feeling more confident that my problem wouldn't happen again as I drove the XJR back and forth to work under similar conditions that caused the problem the first time, and I didn't have any problems (other than the fear of hearing "the sound" whenever I turned the key).

Decided to drive the car up to northern Michigan to do some skiing for the weekend. 200 mile drive with temperatures in the lower teens F. Temp went down to -1 deg F overnight. Tried to start the car the next morning, and heard that same sound of the engine not turning over. Tried a couple of times, and then heard it make it past the compression stroke once. Maybe there's hope, I thought, as I was over 220 miles to the closest dealer, and I didn't know of any independents nearby, plus it was Saturday morning. Kept trying the starter, and about every 6th or 7th try, it would turn over once. Spent 15 minutes going through this routine, and then finally had to connect another battery via jumper cables. Kept trying for another 10 minutes, and finally got it run. Sounded like it was running on 6 cylinders, as it was shaking badly and coughing and sputtering. Got a "reduced performance" error on and off for the next 5 minutes until it finally settled into an idle. Let it idle for another 10 minutes, then rev'd it a few times, and it seemed okay from inside the car. I shut it off for about a minute, and was able to restart it without a problem. Got out of the car, and listened closely to the engine, and I could here kind of a "tick" or "slight rattle", but the engine idled okay.

I drove it 25 minutes to the ski resort, and it drove okay. Only spent about 4 hours on the ski slopes, as I wasn't confident it would start after sitting in 18 deg temperatures. I was quite happy to have it start, and was able to drive it back to the condo we rented. I wasn't sure what I was going to do for the night, as it was supposed to be around 0 deg again. A couple of the condos had attached garages, and after explaining my situation, I was able to park the car inside for the night. Temp in the garage was around 35-40 deg.

The car started fine this morning, however the tick/rattle seemed more pronounced. It's not consistent, but about every 1-2 seconds. (attached is a sound clip) Wasn't confident I was going to make it home, but decided to make the drive. Temperatures were in the high teens, but I made it home to my heated garage. Connected it to my OBD scanner, and found a P0308 (random misfire cylinder 8) and P1316 (Injector Circuit / IDM Codes Detected). I'm guessing that there was probably water in cylinder 8.

Planning to call the dealer tomorrow, but I'm thinking I may have done some serious damage to the engine - bent valve? cracked piston? cracked rod? Anxious to hear your thoughts...

 

Wow- really sorry to hear this.

I've been doing some additional research since your last event and come up empty not only on similar events on Jags but on either Ford or GM, via some engineering contacts.

I'm wondering now with the fault show with the injector, is it possible that fuel has been leaking inside the cylinder?

 

Scaring!
Hope your CC can sort it out, but seems that they are presently clueless.
Good luck
Serge

 

Bummer.

If you pull the #8 plug, you will see damage to the plug if there was ice in the cylinder when it started. The tick sounds random and inconsistent...most times a bent valve or rod will sound very consistent. It is a good sign if you are not loosing coolant?

 

Haven't lost any coolant. Any idea which side the #8 plug is on? Driver or passenger?

 

It's the rear most on the driver's side. I'd pull all the plugs though.

 

Twice in as may weeks, I have experienced something similar to that originally reported in this thread ... less any evidence of water being involved. Twist of the key and thump, something that seemingly stops the engine from cranking.


What has happened both times is an incomplete startup attempt. Yes, I was cranking and thought it fired and it had not. The next twist on the key runs into the 'wall.' Today was actually the third time in the last six months, but today and last week were cold weather, semi-warm restart situations.


As cold the starter was clearly trying to turn over the engine and could not, my first thought (last week) was that the battery was beginning to succumb to the cold. Jumping, however, was of no help, so it couldn't fully explain the problem. For lack of a better description, it acted as if it ran into an over pressurized cylinder.


I found that simply tying over and over again eventually yielded a sputtering start. I hope that no damage has been done to the starter, but do lean toward a weak battery as the culprit.


I'll have to look at the date on the one I have, but suspect it may be the original.

 

Is there a possibility that the timing is too advanced and it is firing too far ahead of TDC?

 

The code you got can be a leaking injector. My thinking is that you got some water in the fuel and it is freezing the pintles open, allowing fuel to fill the cylinders. I suggest looking for water in the fuel.

 

I'm thinking I'll pull plug #8 first and look for damage. If that is damaged, I'll replace it. If not, I guess I'll pull the other plugs. Assuming none of the other plugs are damaged, then what else should I look for? Wish I had one of those fancy camera scopes where I could look into each cylinder...

I don't think I would have water in the fuel over 3 different tank fills. The first time, the mechanic stated it was water, and not coolant. I'm sure he would have told me if it was gas. How do you look for water in the fuel anyway?

 

If you have water in there, it will stay in there unless you remove it. As the car moves around, you will get little squirts of it through the injectors, causing misfires and freeze ups. Put a bottle of fuel system treatment in there, it has alcohol which will combine with the water and burn. Cars in cold climates should sit with full tanks to prevent condensaton in the tank. It can build up to real problems over time.

 

If you have water in the gas, you will get a hand full of codes. Usually misfires and fuel mixtures related. All our gas now days has alcohol added, so it will absorb a good bit of water. There is a remote chance your problem involves water in the gas, but I'd have to rate it as very remote.

 

If none of the plugs are damaged and the engine still runs poorly after coil and or injector investigation, it's time for deeper surgery.


Without starting another war, I don't agree with the freezing-water-in-fuel theory. The engine and injectors would take hours to cool down. No reason to believe that water present would hold an injector open allowing it to leak.

For all it's other evils, Satan Ethanol does an excellent job of keeping stagnating water out of the fuel system.

 

Hey Mikey...we finally agree on something!

 

I knew we'd get there!

 

Tonight I pulled spark plug #8, and I was actually relieved to see that the plug tip had been flattened and was pressed against the electrode. I re-gapped the plug to .040, inspected the tip, and reinstalled it. To my delight, the engine sounded normal again and the tick / rattle I had previously reported was gone. Took the car out for a 20 minute drive, and everything seems back to normal. Woo Hoo!!!

However, now that this has happened to me twice, I have no confidence in parking the car outside for more than a couple hours. I'm guessing that this last incident I had a small amount of water that then froze, and there was enough torque in the starter to move the ice and flatten the tip. So the question remains, why is my engine experiencing moisture / water in the cylinders and how do I fix it???

 

I'm struggling to see how that could be occur.