Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

 

Yes, he definitely knows his stuff and has the credentials. He makes a very good case for why fitting HID bulbs into incandescent housings is a truly bad idea. Both for the driver of the vehicle and for drivers of other vehicles around the converted headlights.

It should be required reading for people who get the urge to buy a HID conversion kit or halogen bulbs with blue coatings.

 

It should be pointed out that the author, Daniel Stern, is in the HID consultancy and selling business, and has a potential conflict of interest in regards to other HID kits that he doesn't sell or support.

I read the article, and though impressive in its technical jargon, the only issues I saw that were relevant (to me) was that, A) the cheap kits don't REALLY improve visibility (only short, not long), B) they need to be watertight, and C) they are illegal.

I have installed HID in my Lincolns and now my Jag, and I can tell you from personal experience that "A" above is just plain inaccurate. I can see far better with HIDs, both short and long (no pun intended). Everyone who gets in my vehicles at night comment on how well they can see. I get no flashes from on-coming vehicles, and yet the increased visibility is clearly evident.

I am sure there is technical merit to what he says, but from a personal perspective, based on my own experience, I find this info misleading, if not self serving to the author. I am not an expert, but I think it a worthwhile upgrade. Stay with regulated digital ballasts, cheap and reliable. The smaller ones are easier to fit.

 

The site is centered around halogen lighting. The products are halogen housings and bulbs. Do you know something that is not revealed on the site?

It's not jargon. It is optical science. The science is used to illustrate why HID kits are a bad idea.

The primary message is that both halogen and HID are complete systems that must be considered as a whole.

There is nothing wrong with a complete retrofit that includes suitable lamp housings. A set of ballasts and bulbs do not constitute a complete retrofit because of the use of the inappropriate lamp housing.

The result is a high output with bad focus and output patterns. The result is glare for other drivers.

The reason a halogen retrofit works properly is that it is done as a complete replacement including lamp housings. That is the critical difference.


Other drivers may be just too tired of flashing that they have given up. Or, they do not care to become engaged in road rage. You do not know whether they are quietly seething inside. Mounting photo strobes is starting to sound like a really, really good idea to get the message across.

Of course there is technical merit. All of the science has been presented as the rationale. No magic smoke and mirrors.

For those who feel that their halogens are not up to the job, the technical article on headlamp aiming may be the solution.

Finally, for those who remain unconvinced and drink the aftermarket HID coolaid:

1. at least go to the trouble of aiming them properly.

2. be aware that on a four bulb conversion, flashing high beams will no longer work because of the warm up required.

3. remember to dim where appropriate, including while overtaking.

 

I'm glad to see that my post/link is having the expected effect, starting a discussion on the pro and con of after-market HID kits.
I have thought many times of installing thoses kits on my vehicles ( both bikes and cars) but all the research that I did always pointed to the technical fact that lamp housing, bulb location/positioning and type of light emitting source are all inter-related.

I'm sure that HID are "brighter" but I'm far from convinced that brighter, just by itself, automatically equate to better vision.

On the other hand, almost everyone that had done those kits rave about them.

For me one of the most interesting part of the article was the fact that too much light, too brigh just in front of the car has a very negative effect on your eyes for distance vision.

 

Maybe the raving is about cosmetics and the placebo effect. Most people, once they have purchased something, are loath to admit that maybe it wasn't the be best thing since sliced bread.

Yes, because the iris adjusts to the available light. The eye also tends to gravitate towards the bright spot. If the light is bright, but close, then the
details beyond the bright spot and under the iris threshold become much harder to see.

It is entirely possible with a good, properly aimed halogen system to be entirely comfortable at 80MPH on low beams without that nagging overdriving the headlights feeling.

In short, it is much better to be able to see something dimly way up the road than to see it bright as day just before you hit it.

 

That's me...the HID craze is in every pickup and 'modified' car, its just plain exhausting avoiding these people. The only response I give is to those who choose to drive behind me. Ever turn off your autodimming mirror to realize just HOW much that light blinds you? Its staggering. On the highway, my only response to give the driver a sense of what I just went thru is to let them pass, get behind them, and turn on my brights for a brief period. But, I only do this because if the confrontation escalates, I could defend myself. These days, the smallest thing sets off impatient, frustrated drivers.

<moderator hat off> I totally agree its both unsafe and irresponsible to put HID bulbs into a regular, halogen designed housing. The reason why its illegal is to protect other drivers around you. By putting HIDs in your vehicle, AND knowing you are doing so while consciously increasing the risk to others (and not a shred to yourself) by attributing to the possibility of an accident is simply selfish. Just because it helps you see the road better doesn't make it acceptable. Why not just throw rocks out your window, or swerve at them, you're basically doing the same thing...forcing another driver to respond to a stimulus that they shouldn't have to be subjected. Metaphorically, its like putting your hand over their eyes...and expecting them to not panic....they'll be allowed to see again in a moment, won't they?

If an owner with incomplete HID systems DOESN'T know what they're doing and the potential impact it causes, I can accept that. Its the people that admit they know its illegal, and do it anyway. I wish law enforcement would put more pressure on these people, but I suppose that won't happen anytime soon...at least until a driver survives and accident and legal proceedings prove that an illegal HID setup contributed to the accident. Personally, I wouldn't want that on my conscious.

Please don't flame me back telling me to mind my own business. I do that regularly when someone admits to not wearing their seatbelt. Hey, its illegal too, but at least the only person their potentially hurting is themselves. When it has the potential to tragically impact others, I am not going to sit by and say nothing. <moderator hat back on>

 

Seriously a sore spot, I had no idea. I personally am not bothered by HID or bright headlights on other vehicles. Here in NorCal they are everywhere, and letting that bother me would have me in constant irritation; but they don't bother me.

I cannot speak to anything but my personal experience, though I have my intellectualizations about the science behind all this; I can definitely see better at night. My night vision at 60 ain't what it was at 40, or even 50. I definitely feel safer.

If people flashed me I would adjust them down. I had them too high on a Lincoln at first and I got flashed, so people let me know. I adjusted them to what made sense in terms of their oncoming eyes (short of a go-cart), and the flashing stopped. I figure that means it wasn't bothering them anymore. Not anymore than I was bothered by others, or so I believe.

On balance, I think the streets are safer at night with me being able to see well. And that doesn't even count my wife, which is a whole nother story...

 

selfish ... that's the word I've danced around in several threads because I don't have a hat. But, it's the bottom line and no amount of rationalisation changes it.

Now, given that use of the kits is illegal, anyone involved in an accident where the other driver is using such a kit ought to pursue that as a contributing factor. If an investigator attends the scene, they should be asked to take note of whether such a kit is installed.

RANT #2:

It seems new drivers are not being taught that there is such a thing as a dimmer switch. Or, they forget soon after being taught. The same crowd that pulls in and out of traffic to avoid touching the cruise control.

++

 

Well, don't forget to "think about the children" too.

Now, how does this new "balance" math work?

Let's see ...

on a 10 mile drive with a oncoming traffic density of 1 car per 528 feet,

100 drivers faced with illegal HID kit

1 driver with illegal HID kit

Result, 1 driver who at least thinks he sees better, 100 drivers facing glare.

That's 1 to 100.

What if 1 of the 100 blinded drivers crosses the white line?

The driver with the HID should be able to see them really well as the cars collide.

++

 

I'm very happy with my conversion (dipped beam only) and have followed UK law to the letter with regards legal requirements, A) headlamps must be adjustable = check. B) must have headlamp wash facility = check. I've not done the main beams as mentioned here, no fast flash, which is very important to me as a courteous driver....
My car is due for an MOT (the yearly VOSA check) and if the lights fail that it's an easy thing to put back to standard as I've dipped beam looms ready to fit back into the lights. I've no road time with them as yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing how they perform.

The X308 headlamp assemblies are fully adjustable. The cut-off design will accept a HID bulb with the right adaptors.
As the lamps are glass, the HID bulbs perform in the same way as the old halogen bulbs because of the cutoffs installed in the lamp housing. The video, and the vast majority of headlights today are clear plastic, prone to roadrash and promote scattered light, and nearly all will have no cutoffs. None of this effects the glass lights in my car, I have new dipped lenses so I do not see any scattered light, only sharp cutoffs both sides, it makes me feel quietly confident my conversion will pass, and if they do, they stay, I don't really give two hoots what people say on here, if they meet UK law, they're fit to use.

 

In the US the headlamps (low beams) are not adjustable, we don't have the leveling system. ( i did retrofited it on my XJR)

 

Luc, how hard was that? You say NA cars haven't got the switch in the cabin with 3 settings? How Jaguar decided that I don't know.....it makes the installation more difficult but not impossible.
The lamp assemblies have a very good range of manual adjustment, so setting them up shouldn't be prohibitive. How much did it cost for your conversion? you needed the lamp holders including the motors, the switch, and wiring. Where did you source these. Final question, have you considered the conversion? it would be natural to do this if you have the necessary cutoffs and headlamp wash (this is for keeping the lens clean to avoid refracted/scattered light emissions) If you point the beam (same pattern as Halogen) were it's intended, it will out perform Halogen, even the supposed 110-120W Halogens.

 

All of this light retrofitting is interesting -- like when I was 10 and wanted Cragars and a Hurst shifter on my mothers german car!

Most of the cars look ridicules with the HID switch and if they are doing the conversion to make them look newer -- they fail. And the glare from most of the conversions is very annoying -- especially the trucks.


That said. I drive with my headlights on as DRL on the XJ -- my car is Silver and is very hard to see on gray days in the NE USA - so my lights burn out more frequently. The dealer always replaced them free under the original and extended warranty -- and my parts guy gave me two a few years ago. When one went out before Christmas - I ran to the local Pep Boys and bought a set of Sylvania bulbs - they were upgraded but I did not want the top grade as they have a blue cast. Anyway - I was surprised that the light was misaimed compared to the factory bulbs? Looking at the bulbs they were slightly different with the filament at a different distance from the socket. While the new bulbs did look to be whiter and brighter they must not place the filament in the proper place for the reflector to aim the light.

Thankfully -- I kept the one bulb that was still working and I am going to try to match it up or get the OE bulbs from the dealer. I always found the headlights on the x308 XJ to be very good ---not up to the best of todays HID but quite good .......and I drive on dark country roads a few days a week.

 

Hi Sean:

The dash wiring ( from the switch to the A post) is already there.
What I did was to locate the empty pin in the connector on the fender side, install a new pin and manufactured my own harness from there.

You have 3 wires going to the leveler, +, ground/earth and signal from the switch.
I did not use the specific lamp holder, I just modified mine for the levelers .
Total cost was about $60, $10 for the switch, and $50 for both levelers/motors with piggy tails ( from Ebay UK) and took me about 4 hrs to instal

 

hi all,
@ sean. you will not have any problems with your MOT. or you should not......
i have had 2 cars that i have fitted Hid to. neither of them were pulled up at the testing stations (two different mot centres). provided you have had the beams correctly aligned there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to get their knickers in a twist about these lighting systems. if you go out driving at night and stare into the oncoming cars lights you will be dazed- HID OR HALOGEN. it is subjective as to how long the dazzle will take to clear. whats the answer? DONT STARE AT THE ONCOMING CARS HEADLAMPS. it really isnt that difficult to do. as most cars are having hid main beams and or DLR's fitted as standard from 2010 onwards i am afraid that everyone is just going to have to put up with it.

dom

 

12dja -- maybe the headlight levelers will help with some of the problems with the retrofits. In the USA we do not have this on standard headlights.

Most if not all of the standard headlights can not contain the light from the conversions currently available - so they can not be compared to factory installed HID lights. With many of the conversions it is impossible not to be blinded as the light is so misdirected.

 

I suppose I should clarify...if the original halogen housings have a built-in cutoff, then it won't be nearly as problematic for oncoming drivers, as long as the level is set correctly. yeldogd is correct, most of the problems and complaints regarding HID retrofit installations is the incompatible reflector housings that they are putting them in. If the x308 has an integrated cutoff, I was not aware of it when i posted previously.

 

It is doubtful because the combination was never homologated in the EU. Therefore, it would be unapproved.

Whether you get away with it is a completely different question.

 

I love my HID's. I see better and have been followed by my car and the light from behind was not a problem. They are legal here up to 6000. All other globes are LED's (apart from interior)
If there is a better legal option I'll take it any time..