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Not starting problem again - HELP!

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Old 09-23-2018, 03:56 PM
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Question Not starting problem again - HELP!

Please forgive me listing what transpired leading up to this 'Not Starting Problem' but it might be important? Here we go

I have posted a few threads recently due to annoying problems while trying to fix a rumble I've had between 50 / 70 since I've owned the car, there's been lots written about this on the Forum before. I found most threads had so many different reasons as to why this happened, so I started my own thread because the vibration I had could only be the prop-shaft really as everything else had been changed, yet the vibration still prevailed! I had a lot of advice, particularly from M Stojanovic, who's knowledge on the subject goes well beyond the book . So I removed the prop-shaft and followed his help. There's been a few times I've needed help since, and now I need perhaps the most input from all you knowledgeable experts out there. Firstly, the threads I've posted so far are:-

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...roblem-207717/ (the initial thread regarding the prop-shaft balance and how to fit the Jurid couplings the right way round etc)
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...er-way-208372/ (this one as I was having problems getting the front muffler onto the 2 down pipes)

Finally I got it all back together. Then disaster. The car had been stood for nearly 2 weeks, but I have a 120amp battery in the car I felt sure would be fine? NOT! The car started first turn of the key, but it was obvious that at least one cylinder wasn't firing, 20 seconds after starting it cut out, I tried starting again and the battery was too weak to start it, I quickly connected some jump cables from my wife's car and tried again to start it... nothing, just whizzing over, talk about frustrating! .

I remembered the 'bore wash' problem I had way back, when I didn't know what bore wash was, the engine sounded exactly the same as it was flinging over and it had only run for a few seconds or so. I had so much help at that time I eventually got it going again. I could remember what I did, so I proceeded to remove the spark plugs from the left bank and put some oil down the bores. Had a check of the spark plugs which seemed fine, gaps were good etc. Put them back in and spun her over... nothing, just whizzing over again without a glimmer of even firing. Frustrated I left it overnight with the battery on charge. I resisted the foot full down on the gas pedal method as that frightened the wotsit out of me last time when it backfired through the crankcase!

Today I tried again. I checked the pressure at the fuel rail and it shot out a smallish amount of fuel, so I had 'some' pressure there. I removed a coil and put a spark plug in it to make sure it was sparking when whizzing over, no problem there either. I sprayed some 'easystart' down the full load breather and got a backfire via the intake pipe near the MAF sensor. I connected my code reader to the OBDII port and it said "No DTC's Recorded in the ECU"? Now I'm stuck! I always thought that having a spark and fuel it'll start!

I went and purchased a Fuel Pressure Tester, but I haven't yet found anything that syas what the fuel pressure should be when cranking over (if anyone knows I would appreciate you shouting up?), Plenty of info about what the pressure should be when it's running, with and without the vac pipe connected to the FPR, but mine's not running

Can anyone help with some ideas I can check? I'm a lot better at analysis having done so much to the car, but electronics is not my strong point, tell me to measure resistance or check for power, and show me which terminals to check and where they are, and I'm fine. But modern electronics is where I have issues understanding how things actually work!

I would be in your debt if you can throw anything up here, it's so frustrating to have done so much work, only to find other problems that didn't exist before you started. Many thanks to all for any input.
Paul
 
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:17 PM
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I'm pretty certain it's borewash. You could do a compression check to confirm, or just add about a teaspoon of oil to the cylinders, turn it over a few times with the fuel injection fuse removed, clean up the excess oil, then replace the plugs and try starting again. Fuel pressure should be over 40 psi.
 
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:45 PM
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Thanks RJ237, I think you're right re the bore wash hence my taking the plugs out, I have a new set arriving tomorrow, i'll take your advice. Is the fuel pressure of 40 psi when cranking as well as when running?
Paul
 
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:38 PM
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It could be higher or a little lower. The fact that you got a good spurt is positive. My 97 was originally at about 50, but the local specialist reduced it to 40. It had no effect on mileage or power.
 
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by euphonium01 View Post
Is the fuel pressure of 40 psi when cranking as well as when running?
The fuel pressure is highest when the engine is running and the vacuum hose to the FPR disconnected; it should be about 45 psi in this case. However, since you cannot start the engine, you can do a simple test - take out the fuel pump relay (the relay panel in the boot) and plug two wires into the relay socket where shown in red on the drawing below. Do this test with the ignition switched completely off. Then, connect briefly and repeatedly the two wires together. You should get some spark between the wires on connection. If you don't then either the fuse has blown or the pump is bad. If you get a spark, then listen for the fuel pump sound from the fuel tank. If you cannot hear it by listening from the boot, open the fuel tank cap and listen there (get someone to do the connection of the two wires or extend them to the fuel filler side but do their connection keeping them down and away from the open filler neck). If you don't hear any sound, do not keep the two wires connected for too long as the pump may be seized and drawing high current which may overheat it.

If you hear the pump running, connect the fuel pressure gauge, touch the wires again for a few seconds and see what is the fuel pressure reading. You should have about 45 psi.

I once had a seized fuel pump on an older BMW (after it stood for some time with rather low fuel level in the tank). When I connected the fuel pump directly to power supply, I would only hear a small "click" from the pump and then nothing. I then repeatedly conected-disconnected the power to the pump and, after doing this about 10 times, the pump started running. My conclusion was: don't keep the car sitting for too long, especially when the fuel level in the tank is low.
 
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:53 PM
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Sorry, forgot to attach the drawing

 
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Old 09-24-2018, 04:28 AM
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Hi again, and thanks for all your help over the last few weeks. It's currently 10:20 in the UK and it's a sunny day, I'm about to go get the new spark plugs. After that, I will test out the pressure to see if the pump is working though I think it is as there's a spurt of fuel each time I press the Schroeder valve following a spin over or just turning on the ignition. Interesting that I had to swap out the pump a few months ago, but it seems to be working?

Then some oil down the bores, spin it over and put the plugs in, I hope my next post on this thread is to say it's running again (and the rumble has gone after a test drive).
Paul
 
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:58 PM
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Default I think i blew the engine up.... Really!

Well, unfortunately it's all bad news! Tested the fuel pressure, soon as I turned the key to ignition the gauge flew up to 45 psi, then settled back to 42 (ish). Checked for a spark again from a couple of different coils, all sparking fine. So I connected everything back up after putting oil down the bores, flung it over but no start, though it seemed to fire a couple of times even if the firing was only very weak and intermittent! I thought I would give the 'foot to the floor' method a go, tried for 10 seconds, waited a second or 2 and tried again, foot to the floor.

After one almighty BANG, the pipe in top of the TB (from the MAF) blew off completely, snapping both the 10 mm fixings on top of the TB holding it on. I even had my neighbour come out to check what the bang was. I tried putting more oil down the bores only because the engine seemed to have no compression at all, absolutely made no difference, still no start although, again, there was the odd fire from maybe 1 cylinder it seemed. I got to thinking how can this be when it ran before I put it on stands to do the prop-shaft?

I've become so frustrated with the Nikasil 3.2, I wish I could afford to torch the... thing! I think my next best option now is to look for an early 3.2 with steel liners, take on the work of swapping the engine out, and be done with it. Maybe the engine I have is so worn that the compression just won't come up enough to start, even with oil down the bores, I dunno? But certainly I have mentioned a few times about the lack of power, maybe it ran like a sewing machine because it had a similar power output???

Telephoned the Jag breakers I have situated about 6 miles or so from me, they offered me a 3.2 steel lined engine for 450 including tax (that's around $590 for our American friends) and comes with a guarantee to exchange if it's not a good one (I played the retired old man card, he took pity on me I think?). I also get the chance to hear it run before they remove it. So I'm thinking this is best way forward, I just need to get it out of my mind to put a 4.0 NA engine in (offered for the same price BTW) I remember someone saying it was easy if you use the 3.2 Cam cogs, and seal off the VVT oil holes? Any advice on that would be appreciated before I take a jump and waste 450.

Sorry for the 'gloom and doom' but reality hurts sometimes! Be good to hear some positive ideas, I'm sure short of positive at the moment
Paul
 
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Old 09-24-2018, 01:19 PM
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That massive backfire makes me wonder if the timing had shifted, lack of compression due to bent valves. Anyway, I would welcome a nikasil block, it should last indefinitely if not badly overheated. Have you checked the compression?

Swapping the engine is an extreme step, but there does seem to be something very wrong with your engine.
 
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:16 PM
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Hi RJ237, I haven't heard anyone say they would like a Nikasil block lol, you're the first. Another first is me losing the passion to keep going, even if it is a temporary loss! No, I didn't do a compression test, I should have but was ready to set fire to it, my better judgement kicked in so I closed the bonnet, the garage door, and hit the shower lol.

I will do a compression test tomorrow, but I am very interested in your thoughts on the steel lined 3.2 for the price? It seems too good to pass up (and I will get rid of the bore wash worries). Can you give me an idea of what I should expect from the compression test results, bearing in mind the readings will be low due to the lack of oil on the Nikasil bores I guess? If I do go for the steel lined engine, I will have a spare Nikasil 3.2 you could have if you weren't so far away! But then again, it might be worth a strip down to find the problem with it, fix it, then it's something worth some money to cover the cost of the new one?

Question: How can the valve timing have 'shifted'? If it had, wouldn't there have been some knocking sounds or something with the piston hitting the valves, there was no noise, the car just petered out after it started and ran for 20 seconds? Didn't hear any 'noises' when cranking immediately after either? Strange, it seems these cars are so temperamental, but run so beautiful when they're going. Will let you know the compression results tomorrow.
Paul
 
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Old 09-24-2018, 03:33 PM
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My thought was that the massive backfire may have caused the chain to jump teeth, therefore the compression check. If you have added oil to the cylinders should be 125-145 lbs and fairly equal, but I don't know much about the 3.2. I drove my XK8 nikasil for many years and never experienced borewash.
 
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by euphonium01 View Post
Hi RJ237, I haven't heard anyone say they would like a Nikasil block lol, you're the first
I am an other firm believer in Nikasil, it is a beautiful material, only impacted by the fuel disaster long time ago.
Any Nikasil engine which survived runs smoother, and with less wear than a steel lined version.

Originally Posted by euphonium01 View Post
I will do a compression test tomorrow, but I am very interested in your thoughts on the steel lined 3.2 for the price? It seems too good to pass up (and I will get rid of the bore wash worries)
I am not sure if the bore wash issue is related to Nikasil at all (but shoot me if I am wrong).

From my years of observing the various forums, it seems borewash happens much more in colder temperatures.
Check the forum, not a single post in the last months, but you are the first one of several to come this winter...

Colder temperature starts are compensated by the ECU, and I presume more fuel is added, or the spark timing is changed to allow better starting.
Obviously, there is a point where this, plus some bad luck, comes together and results in bore wash.
In my understanding, Jaguar changed the fuel map on the x308 at some point to prevent the issue.
Again, don't think it is related to Nikasil pur-sang, and if you do exchange your engine, do it on facts (like low compression), not sentiments.

E.
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 05:51 AM
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Gents, thank you, particularly RJ237 and ericjansen. I have now calmed myself and have taken a very good friend's advice and started thinking 'hang on, what exactly have I done that could cause this' (his advice was 'think scientifically about it'). So I am thinking now about what I have done, certainly only mechanical work, but is there anything I could have caught, a wire or connection point? I know that refitting the front muffler pipe was a ridiculous scenario, never have I had to put a solid lump of wood on the silencer and hit it so hard with a big hammer to get it to go onto the front downpipes, but it did eventually go on, could I have disturbed something? I have a spark (or it wouldn't backfire with such ferocity) and I have good fuel pressure, I can also smell the fuel after excessive cranking, so the basic 'elements' required to run are there?

What does confuse me is the car starting first key and running smooth for 20 seconds (even with what seemed a cylinder not firing) then just 'cut out'. If I had disturbed something, bashing the exhaust why did it start? Anyway, I am now going out to do a compression test, I will do this as I used to do years ago, all plugs out and foot hard down to allow maximum air intake into the bores. I will pick up the next post with the results, this may tell us much more. In addition, I have an internal inspection camera I can put down the bores, not easy to see too much, but may throw up something too. I will also do a visual to see if there's anything obvious.

Once again, thanks for your help, my knowledge is like my car, runs really really well... then just stops!
Paul
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by euphonium01 View Post
Anyway, I am now going out to do a compression test, I will do this as I used to do years ago, all plugs out and foot hard down to allow maximum air intake into the boresl
You might want to pull the fuel pump replay before doing so, to prevent an other big BANG
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:16 AM
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Hi guys, I checked down the bores with the inspection camera, and apart from the usual amount of carbon on the top of the pistons, there was nothing to be seen (unfortunately the end of the camera won't point backwards to view the valves). I also checked the DTC's, no DTC's to report from the iCarsoft reader, and nothing on Torque Pro either, so on to the Compression Test...

as suggested, I pulled the fuel pump fuse (and relay just in case), I also pulled the Injectors fuse. I think the results of the Compression Test speak for themselves:-


Talk about depressing, even a re-run of the test showed similar results, none better, and even less in some cases!

Obviously there's something pretty serious, I had loads of squirts of oil down there at various times yesterday, and even after excessive cranking to start it the readings should be a lot better than this? There's still daylight, so I'm pulling the Cam covers, I can check if all 4 flats on the Cams line up together. Other than that, I would say I have a goosed engine? The question remains, how did it even run before? If it was still possible to run with such low Compression before, is this why I had very low power?

I will report back soon as I have looked at the Cams. Also had a chat with the Jag breakers yard, they said that Nikasil is a particular problem in the UK due to the much colder climate and the amount of fuel the ECU puts through for cold-starts causing bore wash much more often, worth a consideration for steel lined if my engine is knackered? As always, your experienced input is appreciated.
Paul
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:50 AM
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You can tell if the valves are bent when the covers are off. They won't return all the way. You're mechanic has obviously never spent a winter in New England or the midwest. -20 C mornings for days at a time, and Nikasil not a problem. The only way you get borewash is by shutting the engine down cold or making repeated attempts to start with no spark.

That used engine sounds like the best option at this point.
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:29 PM
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You're right RJ237, it sounds the best option right at this moment. Obviously my engine did shut down well before it got warmed having only ran a few seconds, so bore wash is a definite possibility, couple that with the very low compression results and I think we have the answer(s) as to why it won't start, hope you agree?

I pulled of the cam covers, rotated the engine via crankshaft pulley, and all 4 camshaft flats lined up, so it seems the valve timing hasn't moved. Add in that there seems to be no foreign bodies laying on top of the pistons and all points to the 3 B's... Bad, Bent, or Burnt valves, maybe a combination of all 3 who knows?

I'm coming to the conclusion that if I get the steel lined engine, even just for the cylinder heads, it's worth the 450? This throws up a number of options however!
1) Take the cylinder heads off my Nikasil engine, if the problem is obviously the heads, put the heads from the steel lined engine on? Can that be done with the engine in situ?
2) I could remove my engine, do the heads swap, and then put my engine back in with the new heads?
3) Just remove my engine, do a timing chain/tensioners/chain guides renewal on the steel lined, and put it in the car?
I'm sure there's even more variations on these 3 options!

Having the steel lined engine's options gives me considerable confidence I can resolve the problem one way or the other. I'm hoping you both agree... how do you guys feel knowing you have such an influence over me spending 450 of my own money lol? I just hope that once I have a running engine the 50-70 rumble is cured!
Paul
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 02:44 PM
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For that low price I would swap the engines, but I suspect the vibration is drive line or wheel related.
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:18 PM
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RJ237, I should have been more clear. This all started with me having the prop-shaft removed, new center bearing, U/J etc, and all balanced up with the couplings attached. The current problem with the engine started after I got the shaft back on and tried to start the car, as said, it started but only ran for 20 seconds. As the work I did was prop-shaft related it confused the life out of me as to why it didn't start and run as it did before I started the prop, I am now assuming it's coincidence?. Because the damn thing won't start, I don't know if the prop-shaft fixes have stopped the rumble I had. That's what I meant by I hope the rumble is fixed when I get the engine going as well. Sorry I caused the confusion.
Paul
 
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:11 PM
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Hi RJ237. Interestingly I've just read a Thread regarding your advice to someone struggling with low compression, perhaps a bore wash problem, but on a later model (think the thread wasn't that long ago?). He suggested a 'blow-down' check to see where any air was escaping. I have the compressor, I have the plugs out, and I have the Cam covers off so I can make sure all the valves in any particular cylinder should be closed. Using the compression test results I found on the little diagram I posted, it might give me the answers I'm seeking, can't do any harm to try it... yes?

It goes without saying how appreciative I am of your time and input, but I'll say it anyway... thanks! (but don't stop helping just yet.. lol) You must get an enormous sense of gratification knowing the answers to problems, and passing your advice on to people? Wish I could do that!
Paul
 

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