I certainly try to think independantly.

Often I find that others, IMHO, worry needlessly. Or are technically correct about something that it really isn't all that important to be correct about. As I get older I find myself shrugging my shoulders more and more .




I get that.




I discovered them in the course of servicing some Ferraris and it's one of the few times when I was actually *impressed* by a mere oil filter. That 'heft and sturdiness' does exude quality....it felt pretty good just holding one in my hand.

I plan on using them in the future, after existing supplies run out. I don't expect that my car will care or even notice the difference operationally speaking (I'm quite sure I won't) but there's an undeniable feel good aspect to using [what seems to be] a really top grade product. Oil filters or anything else.




I admit that it's hard to shrug-off that sort of difference.




Hmmmm.

I would certainly be reluctant to return to *that* restaurant!

But, if the restaurant had 1000 locations nationwide I'd be hesitant to summarily suggest that ALL of the locations must be avoided.






Good to know.

In that case you'd be hesitant to condemn *all* Mann filters, right?

For that matter, do we know that *all* Fram filters are designed and built to a lower standard? I dunno. I'm asking.

My independant thinking is that, given global manufacturing, label-engineering, etc., wholesale avoidance of an entire brand is an over-reaction and that a more selective approach be advised and taken.





I hear what you're say in, broadly speaking, agree.

OTOH, and getting back to oil filters, it's hard for people to get all excited about oil filter quality when they've spent their entire life not caring about oil filters and have never once had anything bad happen as a result of their utter nonchalance. Their cars motor down the road just fine, the engines last 150-200k miles just like anyone else's.

If you buy a crummy shirt the lack of quality is obvious. It doesn't look as nice, the material feel different, and it starts falling apart after the very first run thru the washing machine. The customer will end up tossing it in the trash after wearing it just 3-4 times...and will have to go out and buy another.

If he buys that 87-inch Bosch filter there's a very strong liklihood that absolutely nothing bad will result from doing so. His engine isn't gonna blow up, the car isn't gonna conk out on a lonely country road. He isnt gonna tear down the engine every 50k miles and meaure how much wear has taken place and wring his hands worrying about what might've happened if he had bought the 250-inch filter.

You might get a few people to pour over the technical pages from various filter makers where they'll discover that the difference in filtering ability is obvious. At that point they'll turn and, in their utter ignorance of what constitutes a quality product, ask what is perhaps the MOST salient question of all.....

"Just how good does an oil filter actually need to be?"










Right.

So, if I buy, let's say, a PH2995 Fram for my Jaguar, how do I know Fram hasn't done the same thing? If I follow the herd then I'll say "If one Fram is bad, they're all bad". If I think independantly I'll say "It might be just as good as a Wix"


Not arguing. Just enjoying my Sunday coffee and the conversation

Cheers
DD

Me too, but it hurts more and more as the years go by.

This: is almost impossible to do now, at least at this speed.

I believe this is the answer that best suits 99% of the instances when the question 'which xxxxx is best?' is asked. We are all constantly being bombarded with adverts claiming that product A is better than B and that marvellous gains can be realized. Non-motorheads come here to ask wondering if there is the slight possibility that there may be some truth to it.

As said way up above, finding any credible data to support the real world superiority of a product would be almost impossible.

There's a discussion above regarding which filter has the most square inches of filtering media. One brand was found to have approx three times that of a competitor. How do we know that the area of the smaller filter isn't already three times more than what's required?

Understood.

But there are some branding practices and differences that are hard to ignore. Some brands float towards the bottom and surface once in a while, some brands float on top most of the time. There is no perfect knowledge to guide us, only informed opinion.

Now, with respect to tarring and feathering due to one example ... let's just say that my opportunities these days to sample oil filters are few and far between given one vehicle and one oil change a year. And even that is over kill.

Every consumer should vote with their wallet. Being forgiving as you suggest simply prolongs the pain and encourages those who have become quick buck artists ...

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

That's one, two ... there is no three.

And how do we know that even three times the area is sufficient?

Any question can be turned on its head, and it is equally valid to ask for proof of same.

Now as a practical matter, the usual explanation is that once the media is clogged, the bypass opens more often. During those periods, there is no filtering at all.

What the larger media surface does is delay that point in time when the bypass is habitually open.

A larger media surface also allows greater instantaneous filtered flow.

If I'm waiting for coffee, I don't want to be filtering it through a basket the diameter of a soda straw. I might be tempted to just dump the whole thing into the carafe and bypass the filter. Full of nice chewy grounds, but it is still coffee.

Good question. If we felt is was really, *really* important to know I reckon we could find out

I'll go back to "Just how good does an oil filter actually have to be?"

Cheers
DD

Well that's easy

it has to filter out particles larger than the desired cutoff, while passing enough oil to meet the demands of the engine without excessive pressure drop for the desired service life.

only one of the above characteristics does not have a dependency on surface area for a given particle size. so, surface area would be a consideration.

in the interim, i have stumbled across while hunting baldwin info. a pretty well designed consumer grade oil filter test:

Oil Filter Comparison Study - GM Truck Central

look at the data, especially the filter paper photos rather than being drawn down the rathole of incorrect assumptions bandied about at bobistheoilguy about what the author was actually trying to convey. they somehow got the idea that the contaminant mass numbers were related to the mass collected when in fact it is the mass injected into each sample. big difference.

very well designed test.

the front runners were somewhat surprising and baldwin was not one of them.

Oil Filter Comparison Image - GM Truck Central

++

Heh heh, very good!

But how good does it have to be to suit the needs of the typical Jag owner?





The AC Delco is a turd. And...gah!.... the upper-class FRAM compared quite well!

Good article. I'll dig deeper later

Cheers
DD

I get that, although I sense the two subjects of filter quality and marketing practices might be overlapping and confounding the conversation





Is there any other way ?




Hmmm. Forgiving? How? I really don't think I suggest forgiveness, here or other threads. Look at my postings of X300 ignition coils for example. If I have strong evidence that x-y-z product WILL cause a problem for the buyer, I'll say so, and quite directly.

If I'm simply personally disappointed, or think something should be made to a higher spec, or observe that some competitors are higher quality, that's exactly how I'll describe it.

I'm not inclined to distort my true opinions or convey gratuitously negative opinions for the purpose of discouraging the quick buck artists or to take on a less forgiving appearance, that much I can assure you!






What pain are you referring to?




See above!





Which oil filter manufacturer has fooled you? Bosch? How? What was the deception, specifically, and the result of the deception?


Cheers
DD

In the Bosch case, it is listing the particular catalog number as the direct equivalent of the OEM filter when it clearly was not once received.

Now, it is true that I could have compared the measurements. But why should I have to if the vendor is representing the number as being directly equivalent?

Now, my other posts in other threads about that Bosch application usually only start with the single fact that it is shorter. It is only in followup posts once the inevitable rathole is opened where I will bring in the matter of the 87 square inches found in another application. Both factors point to a management direction where shortcuts are tolerated. In light of that indicator, without the resources to test each and every application in the catalog, I simply choose personally to avoid them altogether.

As for other brands, it is the usual race to the bottom that irks me.

It used to be that you could go out to the store, buy a Fram filter and Champion plugs and be confident that you were working with quality stuff. Not anymore. Now you have to dig through mountains of turds to find anything worthwhile.

Coils for the X300 would be a case near and dear to your heart.

Making good coils is not that hard. But it seems every one and their brother chooses to stuff crap into a fancy box and pass it off as the real deal. If the cost of a good coil is $10 extra, the vendor could sell it for $80 instead of $60, make $10 extra and you would be happy. But no one wants to do that and instead you have a long running thread about it.

Me? I'd rather have a coil on the firewall and 6 plug wires thanks. They didn't have the cooling problems like COPS.

Almost forgot to get back to this discussion!






I, too, am often confounded and annoyed ....or worse....at manufacturers' cataloging/part number rationalization practices and claims of OEM equivalence. On that subject, broadly, we're in agreement






And your objection appears to be based on filter size and amount of filtering media in inches, correct? And not on anything actually bad happening from you having used the product, correct?





I get that, and have oft remarked how hard it is to know what you're getting these days.





Ahhh, indeed it is !!




I wouldn't say "no one" because, in actual fact, some DO sell the good stuff. As you say, we have to search thru the turds to find the good stuff





Right, a long running thread to determine which are good and which are turds so as to inform and benefit fellow Jag owners.

In that discussion the Lucas DMB411, in my experience, is a problem. I know this because I've actually *had* a problem using them. Something bad actually happened...the coil failed in 5 months and the engine ran like crap.

My belief is that Lucas has put its name on a sub-par product, and I've said so.

However, if I understand you correctly, you would have me condemn Lucas products on a wholesale basis predicated on my dissatisfaction with their present offering on X300 coils, and my unwillingness to do so would be viewed as being 'forgiving' ....and thus being part of the problem rather than the solution.

Yes, I could "...simply choose personally to avoid them altogether..... " and let that personal decision spill into the recommendations I make to others. But summary avoidance of Lucas products is probably not good advice at all....so I'd be reluctant to give it.

I think, perhaps, it boils down to this: You're trying to make a statement about parts manufacturers.....a crusade of sorts. I'm trying to find out identify which specific parts are known to give problems


Cheers
DD

Well it's not limited to parts manufacturers, it encompasses the whole "greed is good" mentality.

It is also a pointer towards distinguishing between those brands where that mentality is allowed to flourish.

Do I feel a need to lunch a perfectly good engine to prove a point to others? Not today ... can't afford it. It's not a $60 coil.

I will also point out that my statements about the shortcomings of the Bosch oil filter in terms of the application coverage is always with respect to the AJ26/AJ27 engines and posted in the model sections covering those engines. In that respect, I think it is very fair and specific to note that the filter suggested by Bosch is noticeably shorter than factory issue. I will add that while hunting for a fresh supply of filters I noticed that the published length is inaccurate. They publish the factory length while supplying a much shorter product. This inaccuracy means that even if someone were to know the factory length and compare the product notes, they would still go wrong.

I get that, and share your anti-greed sentiment. I guess, for me, that's a different conversation entirely. More like business morality and socio-economics than oil filters.



Fair enough, although I suspect most who ask advice on what parts to buy are not seeking opinion on which manufacturers are the most or least greedy....and I'm not sure that oil filter size or length of filtering media is a particularly accurate assesment of same.





"Lunch a perfectly good engine"? That seems like pure melodrama to me, especially coming from a person who gives these thing a lot of thought. But, if you truly think you'll lunch your engine by using the Bosch filter then it's your prerogative to say so, I guess!





Fair enough, fair enough!




I certainly agree that whatever specs they publish should be accurate and that they shouldn't say a filter is the same length as the OEM filter if it isn't.

I guess I'm a bit nonchalant about the length issue because I've seen car manufacturers approve of and make such changes themselves. Jaguar itself even did so years ago, with respect to filters for the older engines, recommending the shorter version for all engines. I guess, then, that Jaguar is among the 'greedy' bunch that we should shun!


Cheers, and thanks for the conversation

DD

...found I was wrong. I thought it was about oil filters!. (I read oldest first.)
FWIW, I use Baldwin for everything filtered, not that anyone should care...

I'll confess to being garrulous at times. Family members are sometimes compelled to tell me "For the love of god, put a cork in it". Members of this forum, however, are too polite, or, equally as likely, simply stop reading.

However, and FWIW, Baldwin filters were mentioned in a at least of couple of the postings

Cheers
DD