sewing machine sound at start-up
#1
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sewing machine sound at start-up
I have a 98 XJ8L showing 135k on the odometer but the engine was replaced under warranty by a Jag dealer at 95k, so the engine only has 40k on it. I bought the car just over a year ago and it doesn't get out much, but on a cold start it sounds like a sewing machine, like lifters ticking, this goes on for a couple of minutes, Then as the engine warms up you hear a click and then everything is quiet as it should be. it's like turning on a switch it happens that fast. I have read all about the chain tensioner problems and finally today I decided to pull the cam covers and have a look. Everything looks fine, it has the red plastic tensioners but they are fine, the slippers are there on both sides, the primary and secondary chains seems tight, everything looks beutifully clean inside the engine.I usually useValvoline synthetic blend 5w-30, and one oil change I tried the lucas oil additive to see if anything made a difference, but it didn't. I was wondering if it could be something in the variable valve timing system seeing how it is so predictable and how it just quits all of the sudden after you hear the click. Never the less I do feel something is wrong with the engine in that others say thiers is quiet upon startup. I found another thread on here about piston slap, but I don't feel that is what I have. Can you replace just the secondary tensioners without tearing the whole front of the engine apart, and if so I will probably do it before I button it back up. Thanks
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RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
That sounds like a pretty good description of whata variable valve timing unit failure could sound like, although I have yet tohear a bad one myself. I don't know if the factory rebuilt engines have new V V T units fitted: because of the cost and the infrequency of failure, I doubt it. So the V V T's may have alot more than 40K on them.
The secondary tensioners are the only thing you can change without removing the timing cover, and it's hard to imagine that they are causing constant chain noise until the V V T's "clack" when they are activated.
If I was checking out the car, I'd try to determine with a stethoscope whichbank the noise was coming from. Then I would disconnect the appropriateV V T solenoid, and see if the noise eventually dissipates...or if it definitely requires the V V T activation.
You can rotate the V V T units by hand to check the internal return spring (which is pretty heavy on the early type units), but I don't think you can do so with the chains still connected. Maybe a stuck unit would be evident if you were to check the alignment of all four camshaft flatswith the flywheel locked at timing position.
The left bank intake cam is the one which talks to the cam position sensor, so if the left V V T was not retarding I would think you would have a DTC code. AJ26 engines like yours do not monitor right bank cam position: if the noise is coming from the passenger's side of the engine and you can confirm that it is constant until the V V T activates, I think that would be the proof ofa bad unit.
It's not that big a deal to upgrade the secondary tensioners first, in hopes of striking gold. Changing a V V T means pulling the front cover off, inspecting the guide rails and tensioner blades, and upgrading the primary and secondary tensioners while everything is apart. Sounds like you might have to go deep, but the cause will be easiest to determine while everything is still assembled.
Please post any additional findings, I'd love to learn more. My opinion is that V V T's get blamed for alot of problems (and replaced at great expense) without good cause. I'm sure they can fail, I'd just like to be sure of the diagnosis.
I don't have experience using synthetic oil, but your use of the proper viscosity makes it unlikely that this has anything to do with the issue. Hope this helps you on the right path.
The secondary tensioners are the only thing you can change without removing the timing cover, and it's hard to imagine that they are causing constant chain noise until the V V T's "clack" when they are activated.
If I was checking out the car, I'd try to determine with a stethoscope whichbank the noise was coming from. Then I would disconnect the appropriateV V T solenoid, and see if the noise eventually dissipates...or if it definitely requires the V V T activation.
You can rotate the V V T units by hand to check the internal return spring (which is pretty heavy on the early type units), but I don't think you can do so with the chains still connected. Maybe a stuck unit would be evident if you were to check the alignment of all four camshaft flatswith the flywheel locked at timing position.
The left bank intake cam is the one which talks to the cam position sensor, so if the left V V T was not retarding I would think you would have a DTC code. AJ26 engines like yours do not monitor right bank cam position: if the noise is coming from the passenger's side of the engine and you can confirm that it is constant until the V V T activates, I think that would be the proof ofa bad unit.
It's not that big a deal to upgrade the secondary tensioners first, in hopes of striking gold. Changing a V V T means pulling the front cover off, inspecting the guide rails and tensioner blades, and upgrading the primary and secondary tensioners while everything is apart. Sounds like you might have to go deep, but the cause will be easiest to determine while everything is still assembled.
Please post any additional findings, I'd love to learn more. My opinion is that V V T's get blamed for alot of problems (and replaced at great expense) without good cause. I'm sure they can fail, I'd just like to be sure of the diagnosis.
I don't have experience using synthetic oil, but your use of the proper viscosity makes it unlikely that this has anything to do with the issue. Hope this helps you on the right path.
#3
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RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
You are correct JagtechOhio, the engine warms up for a certain time (a couple of minutes) sounding like a sewing machine, then you hear a 'clack' and the noise disappears. The tag I found on the back of the engine was green and said 'genuine Jaguar Replacement Part' I then phoned the dealer they told me it was a brand new engine assembly not rebuilt. I assumed it was an entire engine, I'm sort of surprised that they would make the mechanic swap out VVT's and the like off an old engine with problems onto a brand new engine just sounds like another set of problems waiting to happen, maybe that's the reason the owner got pissed and got rid of it even with a new engine he was still having probelms, I bought it off of a used car dealer he had no idea of the new engine I uncovered that myself poking around under the hood. I found a picture of the new secondary tensioners I thought they were all metal even where the chains rub, but the picture I saw showed a metal body with the plastic slippers where the chain rubs, I thought that was one of the main causes of failure??? So if I unhook the wiring loom at the front of one cylinder bank at a time I might notice a difference in the sound and that might clue me in as to which side??? also is it going to hurt it to run it this way, because when it is up to operating temp the engine is quiet. And lastly how expensive are the vvt's, Thanks Eric
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RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
I was under the impression that the dealer-supplied engines were all factory rebuilt units, not new. Perhaps one of our current dealership associates can answer this question with certainty. The V V T's are like $400.00 each new, so I doubt the factory put two new ones in every engine they rebuilt. Sleeve the block, new rings at least, new chains and tensioners for sure, but not V V T's.
You won't hurt anything by running the engine witha V V T solenoid disconnected, at worst you will flag a check engine code. Get a stethoscope and spend some time trying to isolate the noise.
You won't hurt anything by running the engine witha V V T solenoid disconnected, at worst you will flag a check engine code. Get a stethoscope and spend some time trying to isolate the noise.
#5
RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
We can get two engines. New and rebuilt. They do come with new VVT units if it is a new engine. I have also been told that the rebuilds have new units. They reuse cams and cranks etc.
Sounds lime you may have an oil feed problem. Takes the time to get oil up to vvt unit. AJ26 is on or off vvt. Not like AJ27 with linear vvt.
As JTO states, disconnect them one at a time and see if noise disapates.
Sounds lime you may have an oil feed problem. Takes the time to get oil up to vvt unit. AJ26 is on or off vvt. Not like AJ27 with linear vvt.
As JTO states, disconnect them one at a time and see if noise disapates.
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#8
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RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
I'm going to call the dealership that installed the engine in the morning at coffee break and see if I can find out new or rebuilt. Also my wife says we might get lucky and find out there is warranty left on the engine but I highly doubt it. It was installed 3-11-03 so we probably wouldn't be out on the mileage but on the time. Anyhow you guys didn't answer does the new secondary tensioner still have the plastic slippers with the metal body. I thought for some reason they were all metal. can anyone elaborate on the cork oil seals that allow oil to drain back that jag genius mentioned. Thanks for the replies though.
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RE: sewing machine sound at start-up
The latest style of secondary tensioners have aluminum bodies, steel plungers, and plastic slippers on each end. The slippers are moulded to wrap around the ends of the plungers to make them less likely to separate.
I think jag_genius is referring to the bush carrier seals: on the AJ26 there is one each side, and if worn you lose oil pressure to the V V T's. Still means pulling the front cover.
I think jag_genius is referring to the bush carrier seals: on the AJ26 there is one each side, and if worn you lose oil pressure to the V V T's. Still means pulling the front cover.
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