2000 XJR with Alpine Nav Audio

Hello,

Remember me? After about a year of enjoying my fixed amplifier problems (thanks to the great guys and help on this forum), I am embarking on a speaker overhaul. I have not yet configured the "Aux-In" on my system, but I plan to do that too in upcoming weeks.

For the moment I am working with Polk MM6501 6.5-inch component speakers. I have already gone through the installation of these speakers in the front left and right door panels and A-pillars--but I need to go back in since speaking with Polk (the only guy who knew anything in their Baltimore office and was willing to come to the phone is a man named "Kim" who is head of customer service--a front-line rep insisted that I needed a head-unit and amp overhaul in order to use the MM6501s--and Crutchfield told me that these speakers would not fit my vehicle--which simply is not true).

In fact, these speakers are essentially a custom fit--if you're willing to buy a spacer ring for the woofer and use the tweeter sans housing (I plan to explain more of what I mean about that in a future post but just to tell you now--the tweeters fit perfectly in the A-pillar posts without having to do anything to the finished-side of the post, such as make the tweeter opening larger or smaller).

For now, I am wondering if anyone still active on this forum and who understands the way the amp works can answer a question for me: Is the sound going to the woofer in the door panels and the tweeters in the front a rear of the vehicle already crossed-over? I am beginning to think that it is not--but I want to be sure… I don't have a spectrum analyzer handy so I can't really determine the answer on my own (unless I suppose I run the wires to the tweeter to the woofer and try to listen to see how that sounds--I've not yet tried that).

I will post more information after I learn the answer to my cross-over question.

Thank you!

Jon

 

This is the way I understand it when looking at the wiring diagram for the premium stereo. The factory amp does split up and has a crossover built in and sends separate frequencies to the tweeter and woofer in front. But, if you look it over, the rear speakers both get the same signal and I think the rear tweeters have a filter on the speaker itself. I'm not sure how high of quality the crossover system is in the amp. You probably get better quality and the ability to tune it yourself using polk external crossovers.

 

good advice, and from another Polk MM series owner...good choice on speakers!

 

Jon, what year? From what I can tell, all X308's have the rear door speakers in parallel with the tweeters - NO crossover. The front speakers/tweeters are the same for the standard system, but have the A-pillar tweeters driven by a separate output in the Premium Sound option - I would assume they are crossed over in the amp.

See below for the wiring diagram from 2000 m/y, Premium Sound - Right side... Left side is identical. The 'not used' is the connection for the front tweeter in the standard system.

 

I'm not very familiar with Polk Audio but have seen/heard their home stereo speakers. I bought into the whole "Bose" speaker hype and got a great employee price through a friend. My Yamaha did a great job of blowing the speakers thanks to a few parties, now they are waiting for me to foot a bill for repair. I will admit the Pioneer speakers I put in my car made it sound much better but I would have preferred to put my JBL's in but they didn't fit as they were 6X9 When I installed my amp/subs the sound was improved 100% but I lost trunk space.

 

Hello,

First, this forum is awesome and it's just great to know that there are such helpful fellow Jag owners willing to share their knowledge.

Now: @thinkpad_master - OK, thank you. That poses some interesting thoughts... @Quadmaniac - I remember you! How are you? Thank you for the diagram. My vehicle is a Jaguar 2000 XJR. @h20boy and @PaulB, thanks for chiming in.

So--if the front speakers are already crossed-over it is unclear to me whether it makes sense at all to use the Polk crossover. I would then be crossing-over and already crossed-over signal... In fact, the Polk crossover takes speaker-level input on one end and has midrange-out and tweeteer-out on the other end. What would I use for the speaker-level input in this case if I wanted to use the Polk crossover? With the Polks installed and wired-up directly to the Jag amp, I am experiencing sibilance and a generally horrible amount of treble (turning the treble control down helps a bit but then middies-up the midrange)--so I am convinced that the way the Jag amp crosses over the signal is just not calibrated correctly for these speakers.

A company called AudioControl makes the LC8i, which is a line output converter. It takes up to 4 left/right speaker-level inputs and can sum their signals--essentially merging the sound into a (theoretically) un-crossed-over signal. It then provides output that can go to an external amp, and allows you to control levels of each output channel. I haven't used this product (at least not yet) but I wanted to mention it so that others here who wish to add an external amp know that they can keep their Jag head-unit and Nav systems while improving the system sound.

I worry that adding an "output converter" will possibly deteriorate the overall quality of sound. So I wish to determine a solution that leverages and preserves as much of my factory equipment as possible. To that end: Now that I know that the front midrange and tweeters are crossed over and that I want to use the Polk crossover, the question is: how?

So I had a thought: If I am willing to give up the front/rear fader function and run the head unit always in the "All Position" surround-mode, then I wonder if I can crossover the REAR speakers (using the Polk crossover) and share the rear-left tweeter signal with the front-left tweeter signal, and do the same on the right and do the same for the mid-range speaker? I wonder if that would strain the amp? That would enable me to use a pure un-crossed-over signal, wouldn't it? If wiring-up two 4-ohm speakers in series is not viable or would compromise power going to each speaker then what can I do other than to implement a device such as the LC8i and add amps?

Regards,
Jon

 

In the auto environment, I would expect a simple capacitor in series with the tweeter would provide a reasonable 'cross over' function for the tweeter - it would block the low frequency components that can cause tweeters to clip... not as esoteric as a quality crossover, but it does the job. If I recall, something like a 10 microfarad, non polarized, electrolytic capacitor will do the job. This is what is typically used in co-axial auto speakers for the tweeter.

 

@QuadManiac: I may try your capacitor technique--thank you. But I must admit that I would feel far better using the Polk crossover and a "pure" audio signal.

Another question might reasonably be: Is there a way to get to the front-left and front-right audio BEFORE it is crossed-over by the amp? Even if this means opening the amp and soldering inside of it???

Regards,
-- Jon

 

FRONT left and FRONT right, not without some surgery, IMO... but low level LEFT and RIGHT are available as analog signals in the AINet cable between the head and the amp or nav box (if you have nav).

I would expect (but is is just supposition) that they did a decent job of separating the high frequency from the low in the amp (Premium Sound system), prior to driving the mid-bass and tweeters

 

I installed one and was very impressed with the improved sound. I would have preferred to install my Blue tooth Alpine system but didn't want to loose the navigation audio features as you mentioned.

 

Interesting. I was thinking of just upgrading the speakers and using the factory amp and outputs, but I suppose that they tailored the settings to work best with the stock alpines.

It sucks that to get a good sounding system you have to completely undo what the factory already tried to do.

 

I noticed a big difference when I just swapped out the speakers, the factory magnets are a joke or at least with my model. I have also noticed that when speakers face each other they cancel each other out. I bought a sub that brings out the realism of bass not the typical "boom" you here from many cars.

 

Speakers that face each other don't "cancel each other out". The only way that would happen is if they are generating exactly the same signal at the same amplitude and if one is out-of-phase with the other. Still, you'd need to be in a very controlled environment so that any harmonics aren't generated and the generated waves would need to collide at the right angle, etc., for the cancellation to be meaningful. I most applications, this just doesn't happen. Even noise-canceling headphones are only partially effective.

With respect to the other feedback, I think the information I really need to have would require a spectrum analyzer. I want to determine the crossover values coming from the amp. That way I can better determine whether the Polks are a good fit or whether perhaps there is another speaker vendor with a crossover requirement that better-aligns with the one Alpine decided to use in the Jaguar. Other than that, the leveling device is probably going to be my next option...

Some people reading this might think I'm going way too far in trying to replace the speakers. I read that others just swap-out the existing ones and replace them. However, until you realize what kind of sound you are getting versus what you should be getting, it's sort of like trying to explain why a symphony sounds better in a concert hall than on an AM radio.

I will check here for other thoughts but thank you for now for informing me that the front speakers are in fact already crossed-over, as I had expected, from the amp.

Regards,
--Jon

 

@Jon

Good to see you back on the forums. I have also been absent for a while, mainly due to work, and thankfully I can say I have just been driving and enjoying my Jag, rather than tinkering with it.

However, sitting at the traffic lights a week ago while listening to music, I "felt" the sound move around the front of the cabin suddenly, kind of like what you get in a surround sound theatre when they try to show off their systems. After some fiddling with various controls my conclusion was that one of the front speakers on the passenger side had had some kind of calamity and just wasn't the same as it was before. I was still getting sound out of all speakers, it just didn't sound like it did before.

So I ordered a set of these .....

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Alpine Type-S SPS-600C - Car speaker - 80 Watt - 2-way - component

They arrived last night so I set about installing them. I had seen various posts about the front door mids, and was pretty confident they would be a simple drop in replacement with the 6.5" alpines, and they were. I had pretty much no idea about the tweeters in the pillars and was expecting to have to do some reworking, but, like you, it went a lot smoother than I thought. The alpine tweeters fitted in perfectly after I had drilled out the plastic holder for the original alpine tweeters, which still left the biege mesh grille in place, so externally you can't tell anything had changed, which was exactly what I wanted.

Sound wise I am back to balanced sound, but what about the quality..... ? To be honest when I first installed them, I was quite pleased, but I also knew I had to run them in a little so I left them running overnight on low to mid volume. When I listened again this morning I wasn't quite as pleased as I was the night before :-(

Like you, I then looked at the cross overs that I had not installed (because I had looked at the stereo wiring diag for the premium sound system and like everyone else here deduced that the front tweeters were already being given a crossed over signal direct from the amp) and am currently in a holding pattern about what to do next. I think I am going to live with the speakers for a week or so and see what happens but I will be watching your post closely for any updates and will give my own inputs once I've had the alpines in for a week.

The biggest problem with my cross overs is the size..... there's no way they will go behind the A pillars, so I would need to start running wiring down off the pillars, under the dash, through the cross over, and back up the pillars again. Not out of the question, but just a pain.

@PaulB

I have had a similar "cancelling" effect before in a very old stereo install a long time ago.... reason was I had reversed the polarity to one of the speakers. Not sure if thats relevant to your case or not ?

 

This is referred to the speaker being "out of phase." It is actually a common issue that many people misdiagnose and attempt to solve through extreme means like replacing speakers. My brother, a sound guy with bands as a hobby, is extremely keen at hearing this condition. The first time in my Jag... he commented on it. I had traced it to the radio station we were listening to which was moving in and out of stereo, as I have never been able to duplicate it with a better input source like the MP3 player.

 

Sarc,

Good to see you too!

I have had a big change-of-heart since posting.

First, I am returning the Polk 6501s--not necessarily because they're bad speakers, but because the Polk company offers one of the worst customer-service interfaces I have recently experienced. The man I mentioned earlier in my posts has refused to return my follow-up calls, which he had encouraged me to make when we first spoke. I followed his advice and some of his ideas--including reversing phase of the tweeters--to no avail. I would have been more open to other ideas, but I didn't feel that Polk had any particular interest in advising further... For example, when I spoke to a front-line technician, she told me to either call Crutchfield for advice (even though I explained that I had purchased my speakers from Frys) or to replace my head unit and amp (even though I explained that I was reluctant to do the former under any circumstances). I did, by the way, try calling Crutchfield for advice, but they won't help with products bought elsewhere (they require an order number even if you bought your items second-hand). I certainly understand their policy.


So, after a lot of research, I am going with a company who seems committed to providing the best-possible sound to auto audio lovers--at a reasonable price point. This company is Focal--and I have decided to try the Focal 165 V30 6.5" component speakers. They too come with crossovers, which I will not be using. Instead, I'm going to wire-up the AudioControl LC8i unit. This rather amazing device takes AMPLIFIED sound from several channels, sums them, and then provides high-quality pre-outs to be used with an amplifier. It also has a wired remote (for an additional fee) that allows me to control the sub level as well as have an AUX IN, something I've been dreaming for years about having in my Jaguar sedan. (To see a brief overview of the unit, go here: YouTube - AudioControl LC8i Eight Channel Line Converter.)

I haven't yet determined which amp I will install, but I will post more on that later.

I concluded that no speaker system will just "snap in" to the vehicle other than the original OEM speakers. Sure, they may *physically* snap in, but what I mean is that they won't sound right. That's because it would be highly unlikely that a new speaker from a different company and with different speaker physical properties, materials, design, etc., would happen to use the exact same crossover point as the original speakers. And I'm told (and I'm inclined to believe--although I want to to further research on the subject) that silbilance is often the result of the tweeter and mid trying to reproduce the same high-frequency signal at the same time. This action can be prevented once you have control over the crossover--this would (ideally) mean that the tweeter and the mid are never playing the same frequency signal. I am admittedly disappointed that Alpine chose to cross-over the amplified output inside the amp--especially since they chose not to do so for the rear-channel speakers. And I don't think I'm going to be happy with any new speaker installation unless I can have truly fine control over the crossover points.


I do not think it is reasonable to try to use your crossovers even if they could physically fit into the A pillars. If you wanted to use them, which amplified channel would you select as your input?


I plan to do most of this work next weekend, so I hope to post again soon.

Regards,
Jon

 

@SARC,

I wanted to clarify a few things before my last post was misunderstood. First, congratulations on your speaker choice. I think a choice in speaker brand and type is a very subjective decision. Moreover, I think that ANY after-market speaker is going to perform far better than the stock speakers included in the Jaguar by Alpine.

Second, I think that the only way to bring out a speaker's true potential is to properly cross it over and also to properly amplify it.

Finally, I may have been a bit harsh on Polk but I am (right or wrong) disappointed with the company because I have been a long-time buyer of their car-audio products and just feel that they should have some people on staff to advise their car-audio customers. There is so much mis-information out there--especially, I have found, at the car-audio stores, so I feel it is important for the speaker company to clarify questions some customers occasionally may have. One Polk rep told me that I "need" to use the crossovers they ship; the other told me that I shouldn't--neither asked anything about whether the sound was already crossed over nor did they ask me what vehicle the speakers were going into... In the end, I feel that Polk should have offered-up the idea of a sound leveler, such as the AudioControl LC6 or LC8i device, instead of asking me to call Crutchfield or to rip out my beloved head unit and amp only to reinvest in equipment that otherwise works perfectly well. They were too quick to say "if you don't like our speakers then return them"--and I found that to be a real turn-off. I know the 6501's are truly great speakers but I feel that Focal will offer a better customer experience. It was Focal who had recommended the AudioControl unit.

I'm glad you were able to keep those grilles in the A pillars--I actually removed them from mine and have the actual tweeter grilled showing through. As you found, those A pillars are thankfully very easy to remove and reinstall, so I'm sure you can pop-out those grilles if you ever want to display your new tweeters in all their glory.

Anyway, that's my additional feedback--hoping it will benefit some readers. I will post more later.

Regards,
Jon

 

Jon, sorry to hear your poor experience with the Polk customer service, the MMC6501s are truly good speakers, quality-wise. The Focals are definitely a very good choice as an alternative. Many years ago, I remember Focal being too expensive for budget conscious audiphiles who didn't have $300-400 to spend on a new pair of speakers. Thankfully, their retail prices have fallen to manageable levels, and I am pleased to know that they are competitive on price to the other, very few manufacturers that I consider...worthy of my ears. You sound like me in this regard - very particular when it comes to sound quality and can hear the missing or mal-adjusted signal.

Regarding the signal processor, I agree with you that it is definitely needed if one is simply changing to new speakers. That in-amp crossover thing really ties ones hands when doing so. With a full range signal, mixed from all the channels exiting the amp, you can now add your crossovers, and do the project right. I myself chose the rockford fosgate unit, the 3sixty.2, since it allowed tuning of the system from the cabin using my palm (and via PC) instead of physical adjustment on the unit itself. I would be in and out of that all day trying to make tweaks if I didn't. Yes, a little more expensive, but it has all the other features such as an aux-in. Here's my thread where I initially had it installed.

One other thing, do you xj owners have only the tweets in the a-pillar? Nothing else in the dash?

 

Hi h20boy,

Thanks for your feedback. I didn't know about the Rockford Fosgate unit--wow oh wow. What a beautiful piece of engineering! I have downloaded the manual and will be reviewing it before I decide whether to buy it or whether to give the AudioControl device a try first (I had really wanted simply to properly cross-over the speakers, but now you've got me thinking about equalization...). The one concern I have regarding the 3Sixty unit is that I no longer have a Windows Mobile device. Well--that's not really true--I just no longer use one (I have a decommissioned T-Mobile "Wing" and now use a Blackberry). I would like to know how I can perhaps use a Windows laptop with a Bluetooth USB connector on it in order to communicate with the 3Sixty unit--do you know anything about this? (Ideally, I'd like to see a 3Sixty unit that's got a Wifi interface so that I can connect it up wirelessly to my router and then access it from any machine on my network.) The on-screen equalizer and other controls look spectacular. You made a great choice.

We have tweeters in the A pillars, mids in the door panel; in the rear, the tweeters are in the door-handle assembly and the mids are in the door panel; there is also a single rear-deck dual-cone subwoofer.

I read your other thread... See--that's the whole reason I shudder when I think of some bone-head taking a hacksaw to my door panels. I know it's not really like that, but to me it is a type of surgery with the installers as the surgeons and my vehicle as the patient. I just don't trust them to put all the parts back where they belong, and I dread the thought that I'm going to have improved sound at the cost of new problems (odd rattles, possibly damage to the interior that the installers will argue already existed; etc.). I thought about doing a bumper-to-bumper video of the whole car--inside and out--and having the installer agree that the video is accurate... But what installer is ever going to agree to such a thing?! I think he would be in his right mind to run for the hills! Still, there can be damage or problems to easily hidden behind door panels or other covers, and I just don't want to worry about what those guys will do. (Did you ever see that scene in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" in which the valet guys "take good care" of the sports car? That pretty much sums it up.) I've walked in to a number of car-audio places recently and, maybe I'm just getting way too cynical, but the guys who GENERALLY work there just seem like they don't give a hoot about anything at all--let alone my Jaguar sedan... I'd just rather do the work myself and blame myself if anything goes wrong. Plus, I find it incredibly satisfying to learn something new and to enjoy something I know I did primarily on my own...

Regards,
Jon

 

Jon, the 3sixty works on BT technology built in, no hardware connection is available, and in my case, I just kept my old palm treo, with a car charger, in a little case in the boot. If I need to make an adjustment (I haven't made one in probably 8 months or so) its there. You could do the same with your old windows phone, just use it for that purpose. And yes, if you're within 30' of the car, you could use your desktop to make uploads and/or adjustments, but if you're not in the car to hear it, what good is that really? Laptop is the perfect compromise, but you can't keep it in the car for future changes on-the-fly however.