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Synthetic Oil Causes Gaskets to Soften, Leading to Oil Leak

XJ XJ8 / XJR ( X308 ) 1997 - 2003

Synthetic Oil Causes Gaskets to Soften, Leading to Oil Leak

 
  #21  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:27 AM
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Highhorse, thanks, I do use deep sockets for my cars’ lug nuts.

IDK where the leak is, going by what the Indy mechanic said: “Oil pan gasket leak.” IDK if leak persists after shut down or exactly what that means. Do you mean if I were to go under car, find the oil leaking & wipe it off & sit there & wait, w/o turning on engine…will it still keep leaking? The leak is very small based on the small drop on the garage floor & the 1” drop I measured on the cardboard I placed under passenger side.

Yeldogt, “push test?”

JHartz, good idea to use strong light.

So are we agreed that if I take a ¼” drive, click type torque wrench, set to 9 ft-lbs, & tighten each bolt, I will not over-tighten any? If a bolt was under torqued, I will see/feel it move/tighten till the click & then know that that bolt had been loose. If most (all?) are already @ or above the 9 ft-lbs, my torque wrench will NOT tighten it more, it will just click w/o moving the bolt further. If this is true, I will not know if any bolts are torqued to greater than the 9 ft. Lbs. (Remember, I just recently bought my 1st ½” drive torque wrench to check my wheel nuts—never used one b4)

So, doing this procedure, MAY find/tighten a loose bolt & solve the leak w/o me having to loosen any bolts or remove the oil pan & replace the gasket. And I may also win the lottery

I plan to investigate & fix this leak after I fix the transmission problem by replacing the TCM detailed in my transmission thread.

Thanks!
 
  #22  
Old 05-27-2018, 07:21 AM
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Push = give it a turn and see if it is loose and will tighten. It's not fine china -- you are not going to hurt it. The idea for a true gasket it to provide enough pressure w/o crushing the gasket --- once crushed it can't expand with the two surfaces it's intended to seal. A felt seal is the same except there is less room for compression and the need for perfect mating surfaces. Once the two parts come into contact any more tightening and the pan will deflect ... you are not going to do that with a little "push"

It's common for backyard mechanics to over tighten -- many keep going ,,,, thinking it will eventually stop. Since you are the Original owner -- it has not gone through many owners. You are either going to find it a tad loose -- or it will need replacement if the drip bothers you.
 

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  #23  
Old 05-27-2018, 01:25 PM
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I think they are 10mike mike: use a 1/4" ratchet and see if they can be tightened. After a while (50 years, maybe) you will get a feel for it. Torque wrench? Last bolt I broke was on a brand new 69 BMW (European cars don't like 1/2 inch drives and beefy American hands). If in doubt, ask the tranny tech to check for leaks and pan tightness while he is under the car.

I correct the record: I broke the tensioner bolt on F35063, but it was badly rusted and corroded.
 
  #24  
Old 05-27-2018, 05:15 PM
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The leak can be from the front and weep toward the back from either/or the cooling fan running and/or the motion of the air along the car. So if it were weeping from say one of those #10 seals in the schematic, it can work its way along the lip of the pan and look like a pan leak when in actuality you have a seal leak.

By cleaning the area of oil that's escaping (just wiping it off may do it or using some brake cleaner and wiping it). Then simply starting the car and letting it idol, say 10-15 minutes, shut it down and seeing if you can see the leak. Your engine builds oil pressure (45-60 lbs) and that pressure should show you your area of leakage. I'd pull it onto some ramps to make it easier.
 
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  #25  
Old 05-27-2018, 09:08 PM
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Thanks Highhorse,

Earlier today I got my creeper, a flashlight & a mirror to see if I could see all the oil pan bolts & if they are easily accessible once the car is raised & if I would need to use an extender.

No luck, I can only see a few bolts, need to raise the car just to look.
Surprisingly, The cardboard I had placed underneath has no further evidence of oil leak. Since I drove the car back Thursday, PM, & the transmission issue reappeared, I have only moved it FW out of the garage 1 car length very late (4 AM F) & ran it for 10-15 minutes in the driveway to check to see if the heater was fixed, it was) Then I backed it back into the garage again where it has sat since.

I don’t think it has leaked, at least not enough to drip onto the floor or cardboard.I know it does have a leak bc a couple days b4 taking the car to mechanic, I had seen a small drop of oil on the garage floor so I wiped it up & placed cardboard in that spot. I found the 1” diameter leak on the cardboard the day I took car in for transmission. I was gong to mention it to the mechanic after he told me about the transmission but, he brought it up b4 I could say anything.

I don’t have/use ramps. I prefer my car level when drain oil. I have a floor jack & jack stands.

My plan tomorrow is to move cars so I can lift Jag. Then I will proceed as you recommend. Hopefully, I will not have to remove anything in order to see all around the oil pan & see access to all the bolts.
 
  #26  
Old 01-01-2019, 08:24 PM
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Update:
I have procrastinated on fixing this. I did get my TCM issue fixed (DIY) so, that is great!

Recently I put fresh white cardboard under the car & had 2 oil drops so definitely have a leak. I jacked it up fairly high on my Jack stands.

Had a look & took a couple photos. Can’t see the leak. Black gunk may need to be cleaned off (Degreaser? Brake fluid as cleaner?)
I can get to some but not all of the 18 bolts due to that undercarriage protector. I will have to remove it. You can see in the photo my clever wire hanger attempt to snug it up & this has loosened over the years.
The bolts I can get to seem to be tight. I am assuming the location of the leak (Bad gasket) based on what an Indy shop had told me when I brought it in re TCM issue. I realize they can be wrong.

I think I will still try to replace the oil pan gasket & continue to use Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic oil, as I have for 15+ years.
Part Number: NCA1730AD
Local dealer charges $67+ for Jaguar OEM gasket.
That seems very high.
Can’t find on Rock Auto
Jagbits = $54
Other online auto parts merchants charge significantly less for aftermarket gaskets.
Not sure I need to have a Jaguar branded gasket for double the cost.
partsgeek has one for ~ $30, seems to be made by “Eurospare.”

https://www.partsgeek.com/gbproducts...ad=47433948012


Anyone familiar with that brand?

Note: unable to attach jpg

 
  #27  
Old 01-02-2019, 12:59 AM
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My oil sump/pan was leaking on my car last year, it was an easy fix. You could potentially do the job in under 45 minutes if you’re not fussed on cleaning. I cleaned the pan, painted it and refitted it so it took longer for me. It’s very easy to do, just follow the instructions from Jaguar and I used a bit of gasket sealer for good measure.
The gasket in the UK is £25 and it’s best to buy OEM as far as I’m concerned.
I use whatever oil is the best price at the time so previously had Castrol in the car but currently have Mobil 1 synthetic. After 1100 miles in 6 days the oil is still clean and golden so it’s good.
 
  #28  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:47 AM
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I have had a couple Jaguars now, but only 2, X308's(NOT XJRS). The first used synthetic oil while the second (now) uses "regular" both cars are almost identical.

This may be anecdotal but I found in both vehicles when I reach high speeds of 150-175kmh (sorry I use KM ) both vehicles will smoke/burn oil from the exact same spot in the engine. This can also be true with many quick accelerations or a combo of both. When I drive the same cars later & do not accelerate like an idiot and cruise control at 110-120kmh on the highway max, I dont have the same issue.

This may be obvious for some & not for others but the XJ8/X308 is not meant to a: do heavy accelerations & b: drive past 150kmh for a long period of time or maybe at all. The car is a cruiser & I suspect some gasket leaks are caused and/or made worse by the overall driving style of the driver.
 
  #29  
Old 01-04-2019, 02:24 PM
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I never had smoke/burn from the oil even at 90-100+ MPH.
I never sustain speeds that high though.
Leak started after 18 years. I’m the original owner of my 2000 XJ8.

Any other comments on gasket replacement? OEM vs. aftermarket?
Other than dealer, where to buy for a fair price?

Anyone else use gasket sealer, as Stu 1986 did?
This will be my 1st time replacing a gasket in any car.
 
  #30  
Old 01-04-2019, 03:14 PM
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I dont believe high speeds or to many red light accelerations is a direct cause for smoke burn, or minor gasket leaks, but I believe it can be a contributing factor depending on amount done, age of car, parts & so on. I understand most people do not drive like this either, but its something to keep in mind. I personally never go past 120 kmh anymore, or accelerate like an idiot off red lights or similar. I know some people are wondering why would anyone drive like that anyway, but I was young & stupid

Just anecdotal info, but again something to keep in mind even when you replace to give longevity to the parts & car. I would never recommend going over 120kmh or accelerating hard for any reason ever. These cars are cruisers IMO & like to get up to speed gradually. XJR maybe another story.

Cheers
 
  #31  
Old 01-04-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Leak started after 18 years. I’m the original owner of my 2000 XJ8.

.
Very impressive!

 
  #32  
Old 01-04-2019, 05:28 PM
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I do not accelerate off Red lights either like an idiot or like an intelligent man trying to go as fast as possible.
When traffic is very light on the freeway here, & I am in a hurry, I sometimes go 90-100 MPH for a short time.
Usually cruise @ 75-85 when traffic light on freeway.
 
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I do not accelerate off Red lights either like an idiot or like an intelligent man trying to go as fast as possible.
When traffic is very light on the freeway here, & I am in a hurry, I sometimes go 90-100 MPH for a short time.
Usually cruise @ 75-85 when traffic light on freeway.
Indeed.
 
  #34  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:39 PM
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I just bought Mobil 1 5W-30, High Mileage Formula. Protection for Engines with > 75K miles. It has special additives that keep seals from leaking.
I never used it b4. Used the regular Mobil 1 or in recent years, the Extended Performance formula.

“Protects engine seals with a boosted level of seal conditioner”
https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-...eage-challenge

I’m still going to change the oil pan gasket.
 
  #35  
Old 01-06-2019, 10:14 PM
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Default Picture of my oil pan

Was unable to attach this b4. Shows black "gunk"



oil pan
 
  #36  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:15 PM
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Today is the day!
Just over 90k miles on my 2000 XJ8 & I will finally change the oil pan gasket. Hopefully, this will stop the small leak. I will use Mobil 1 5W-30, High Mileage Formula & a new OEM filter. I just received my new gasket (NCA1730AD) purchased from an out of state Jag dealer for ~ $50 including shipping. (Overpriced, IMO but, local Jag dealer is ~ $73 with tax!)

I think I will have to remove that fiberboard undercarriage protective shield to access all the 18 bolts.
I will follow the instructions linked by jimlombardi in this thread:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...ket-xj8-76458/
“1999 XJ (X308) Engine Oil Pan R&I.pdf” (Link downloads PDF)

Plan:
Run car till normal operating temperature.

Drain oil, replace (with new) drain plug

Do not yet change oil filter

Jack up fairly high

Remove oil pan

Remove old gasket, careful to note, exactly, how it is oriented so I do not place new one in upside down or somehow wrong.

Place & then tighten 18 bolts in correct sequence as per diagram

Replace oil filter with new OEM filter, putting thin coating of oil on filter gasket as usual

Fill with 7 qts, run engine 1 minute & ck oil level & then add 8th qt & s/b full. (I wonder if will need > 8 qts due to dropping pan? Normally my past oil/filter changes take exactly 8 qts.)

Check for oil leaks.

I’m hoping I am wrong re having to remove that entire undercarriage shield.


Steve
 
  #37  
Old 03-22-2019, 01:22 PM
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You don't necessarily need to totally remove the deflector shield, just undo it from the stabilizer brace, its quite flexible. No different than changing your oil, so amount put back will be like usual.

Don't over torque your reapplication of the bolts or you can cause a leak by tweaking the pan. As Graham noted in post #2...11-13 Nm.

If you have a beer on hand, you'll have this done before you finish it (if you don't chug it), its that easy, especially if your using a small 12v battery drill with torque settings.
 
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  #38  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:15 PM
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I completed the repair Friday. I think I fixed the leak. I’m putting cardboard under the car every night & checking for oil drops next day. This was my 1st time ever removing an oil pan.

I needed a 3” extension bar for my ¼” ratchet, to reach the 4 front oil pan bolts. The other 14 bolts needed no extension bar.
If you look at the photo I had posted 1-6-2019, you can see the (now loose) coat hanger piece I had used years ago to secure that center section of the undercarriage shield to the black, stabilizer brace. I removed that wire & easily positioned that (useless?) center section up in front of that stabilizer bar so it was out of the way of the front oil pan bolts.
I left it tucked up in that position since it looks cleaner & I do not see what it was “protecting,” A 4 inch section of the center of that stabilizer bar? The fiber piece has 2 holes which I assume were originally used to secure that section of the shield to something. Maybe a plastic tie that attached to the stabilizer bar? Anyone know?

Any opinions on whether it is OK to leave the center section tucked up, as I described? If I put it back w/o securing it to the stabilizer bar with another coat hanger wire, it will hang down a few inches.

I discovered that the shield positioned directly under the oil filter was a separate piece that could be removed, easily, with a single 13 mm bolt that doesn't even have a nut! This makes it much easier to change the oil filter! Much less mess! I will remove this in future each time I change oil filter. I wonder if experienced mechanics always remove this piece when changing the oil filter?

I did torque 18 bolts to 108 in-lbs (9 ft-lbs/12 Nm)
I followed the correct tightening sequence.
Foot-pounds Force to Inch-pounds Force | Kyle's Converter

I cleaned out the inside of the pan & the mating edges on both the pan & the engine seemed fairly smooth. There was some black gunk (old grease?) on one side of the oil pan mating edge that I cleaned off. Inside the oil pan I saw what looked like a couple small pieces of rectangular paper. Maybe 1 ~¼” x ½” & a much smaller 2nd piece…wtf was that? I’m the original owner & the oil pan has never been removed B4.

RE the gasket, I concluded that there was only a single way to orient the gasket. There are 2 tabs that must point outward. My new Jaguar brand gasket from a Jaguar dealer had a definite difference in the 2 sides of the gasket. One side flatter. That flat side had the tabs aligned perfectly with the body of the gasket. The other side was more raised/ridged. On that raised side, the tabs were very slightly lower that the body of the gasket. When I viewed the old gasket, it was clear the outward side that I could view with it in place, was completely flat. The tabs were aligned perfectly with the level of the gasket body. So, I 1st attempted to place the new gasket with flatter side out but, it did NOT align with the grooves/undulations of the gasket channel. It was ~ 1” off. The only way it fit perfectly was the flatter side in & the more ridged/raised side facing out.
Perhaps the old gasket flattened out over the years? When I removed it, it looked as if both sides were flat.

I used a plastic scraper to wedge into the groove to allow me to grab the old gasket. I tried for several minutes to grab it from a tab with just my fingers, w/o success, LOL. Didn’t want to use a metal tool.

Thanks for all the comments & help!

{Attached 3 pix; separate oil filter shield, engine with pan removed, old gasket in place & can see where I tucked that center section of shield & oil pan b4 I fully cleaned it.}


oil filter shield, removed

can see how I tucked shield, center portion

oil pan b4 cleaning
 
  #39  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
I discovered that the shield positioned directly under the oil filter was a separate piece that could be removed, easily, with a single 13 mm bolt that doesn't even have a nut! This makes it much easier to change the oil filter! Much less mess! I will remove this in future each time I change oil filter. I wonder if experienced mechanics always remove this piece when changing the oil filter?
I didn't realize that was a coat hanger holding your air dam center up, it made me look at mine and see the two holes, and so I used a zip tie to retain mine.

That "shield" is actually a air tunnel that directs cooling air to the alternator. Yours looks as though it has been flattened over the years, the center portion should protrude down to catch air and direct it up and onto the second plastic square "tubing" that directs the air to the alternator.

.
 

Last edited by Carnival Kid; 03-24-2019 at 06:59 PM.
  #40  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Carnival Kid View Post
I didn't realize that was a coat hanger holding your air dam center up, it made me look at mine and see the two holes, and so I used a zip tie to retain mine.

That "shield" is actually a air tunnel that directs cooling air to the alternator. Yours looks as though it has been flattened over the years, the center portion should protrude down to catch air and direct it up and onto the second plastic square "tubing" that directs the air to the alternator.
Here is how the shield/air dam looked after I removed the coat hanger & b4 I tucked that center section up. On the right side of the photo, you can see the hanging center section with the 2 holes that you secured with a zip tie (to the stabilizer bar, I assume?)

On the left side of the photo, you see the separate oil filter section that I later removed & the plastic square tubing that you say is there to direct air to the alternator. I wondered what that was! The piece I removed & replaced, fits above that square tubing on one end & above the edge of the “shield” on the other end & is secured with a single, 13 mm bolt in the center. You can see mine is stained with many years of spilled oil from changing oil filters & just reaching up to wipe it with a rag. I suspect I should have been removing this piece when changing the filter. Probably, everyone on this forum, except me, has been doing that!

BTW, what do you think the 2 holes were for? I wonder if there originally was a zip tie securing it to the above stabilizer bar, for both our cars & it just fell off?

Shield/air dam
 

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