Ronco 1, very nice! I would not sell that one either!

 

Lots of car can be bought between 12-20k. I think I'd have to skip an x308 XJR and go for a w220 S600 bi-turbo v12 or CL55 AMG at those price ranges. The bi-turbo v12 cars are well built, reliable, and extremely powerful stock. We're talking rated 493hp from the factory; my friend dyno'd his stock s600 with over 100k miles. It made 490hp to the wheels. Mercedes built something special with these cars and they dont cost much for their capability. The CL55 is just gorgeous in my opinion. Other special cars in that price range: E39 M5, E46 M3, 996 911 in many flavors, R230 S55 AMG, and Evo 8/9 that's just some off the top of my head. Plenty of classics can be had in that range too.

I will say, my XJR still surprises people when I tell or show them how capable it is.

 

Hay .. like my R's ... but, I can't wish them to be worth more than they are. If you want one they are near the bottom and history says they will be for a few years more.

Grew up with XJ's and we had one when I started to drive in the late 70's -- was spoiled with an XJS in college. Kept my mom's 82 VPD going as an extra car until I bought my 95VDP. I have never not had a XJ to drive ... I do have a spare ... but maybe I should buy luc's if he is really serious so I will have one until I die. Too bad I'm on the other coast. He has not been back

 

I agree.... X308 s are at their bottom in price. However ,the truly low miles mint ones are still worth a lot more than $12k ....(just my opinion)

If you read my little XK120 story in my previous post there's a little bit I left out.....

I bought the XK120 in 1967 from a shipmate for a whopping $650. Can you believe it ? a lousy $ 650 bucks !! Condition wise it was I'd say, in good condition.. power train was sweet... no body dents or rust with BR green paint just fair.. soft top was good and the side curtains were a l little rough in the area of the "toll flaps" . The wire wheels needed to be re chromed. . The unique sound of the exhaust made the car immediately recognizable if you've ever heard one. The car was totally all there in every detail from its knock off racing hubs to its original wire wheels

Judging from the XK120s I've seen in today's market, in the condition it was back then it would fetch $ 80 k+ in a heartbeat as a car that could easily be restored to a $120K value with really minimal restoration work in my opinion . WOW ! can you say appreciation on steroids ?

I sold it in 1970 for a lousy $1K ( AAAARRRGHHH ! Whadda fool !!) but Who knew ?

I guess what I'm getting at here is how a a 15 year old Jag like my 2003 XJR which is pretty much what the age of the XK120 was when I sold it were both at the bottom of their respective markets.

As the years passed I watched the XK120 begin its spectacular ascent in value as its desirability as a classic increased and its availability decreased.
I wore the rope out that actuated the boot on the a-- kicking machine that I had installed in the garage.

Now the question becomes is this the future for the last x308 XJR (2003) and what many say is the pinnacle of the XJR Lyons Jaguar line ? The last of the low slung rocket ship saloons that have that unmistakable timeless classic Jaguar look ?

After having been burned so badly by my XK120 screw up, I'm not going to risk having it happen to me again, Our "Black Jack" is now in "family heirloom" status and not going anywhere . Can you blame me?

 

No one knows the future .... but you can still buy low mile very old XJ's for little money. They are sedans ... ? my neighbor has a Mark II and is always saying he is paying 1/4 of the value of the car to keep it going. W108 MB's are finally getting some traction ... and the better W126's are in the upper teens.

 

No one knows the future .... but you can still buy low mile very old XJ's for little money. They are sedans ... ? my neighbor has a Mark II and is always saying he is paying 1/4 of the value of the car to keep it going. W108 MB's are finally getting some traction ... and the better W126's are in the upper
teens.


I'm not sure what you're trying say here ?
The MB you mention were manufactured 1965–1972 over an 17 year period in relatively large quantities
W108: 364,699 produced

How can a comparison be made to the X308 XJR manufactured over a 5 year period ( 1998-2003 )with a tiny 15,234 of them ever produced ?

Time will tell but after over 50 years from now it would be interesting to see what a 2003 XJR price will be compared to what the price of a W108 is now after over 50 years at $20-25K I think you mentioned?

My guess would be that the XJR price ,much like the XK120 , will be well over 6 figures....again just my opinion

 

The XK20 being 2 seat convertibles ... and the XJR being a sedan ... they are two different animals. Sedans just don't bring big money -- Why is the R going to command money that a 12 Cyl XJ from yesteryear will not? And 15k is not a tiny amount of production.

Used the W108 as an example of an old sedan that's moving .. and the W126 of a later sedan that's also commanding a bit more vs what is typical. The W108's are always going to be worth more vs an XJ .. the most desirable later convertibles cracking the 400k mark. Take a W108 two door and the rare XJC -- the MB coupe is worth more. Great W126's are already above 20k.

As much as I would like the older Jaguars to be worth more ...they just are not. That's why you can buy them all so cheap.

 

Fine. You have your opinions and I have mine,

I'm hanging on to mine for many years to come and then we'll see what value is placed on it as it ages. I have complete confidence that it will be a hell of lot more than $12K

These cars as you pointed out ,are at the bottom of the value cycle ( after a mere 15 years they're old but NOT old enough)) just as my XK120 was at the bottom of the value cycle ( after 13years) when I bought it for a ridiculous price of $650 bucks. It too was old but NOT old enough .

It's been my experience that low production high end unique cars always appreciate in value eventually . the question is how much . I've been burned twice by this reality .......... case in point ..that 1970 427 Corvette convertible I bought new getting out of the Navy ? I still have the original sales receipt from the dealer Commonwealth Chevrolet in Boston . The price? $5900 bucks. Wow ! . Try buying that car TODAY in mint condition for less than $65,000 bucks...Good Luck.. ... another lesson learned for me the hard way

Dealers live in the here and now price ....collectors live in the future values.
I get the impression from reading your posts that you are a dealer in Ca ? am I Right?

As a collector, my bet is that the low production LAST of the the true Lyons styled XJRs will appreciate dramatically as the years unfold.

Meanwhile my wife and I are enjoying "Black Jack" to the max !
What a car !

 

Again ... another two door convertible.

And mint cars will always command more. The average person would want a prefect 1996 XJS over any Jaguar sedan. A given XJS when compared to an R will always be worth more. At some point the best R's will climb .. factoring that you can buy a very fine XKE for 80k .. the R has a long way to go. I'm still amazed how poorly the XKE has done ... SL's from the period in the same condition go for more .. and there there are many many more out there. It's actually hard to make money on an XKE restoration.

I love them .. and will always have them .. but, they are basically "used cars" .. and ford designed the x300 and x308 ... Lyons was dead (but - I get your point)

I'm not a dealer -- east coast. I have a bunch of old cars.

 

The interesting debate continues..........a few points need clarification...

You continue to repeat the term "sedan" inferring that the term sedan implies a somewhat boring , large but comfortable "old man's car" if you will and you are right. This may be true for the XJ8 and VDP but couldn't be further from the truth for the XJR. The XJR is a "supercharged" monster.. The ultimate "sleeper" that at 4100 lbs can get to 6o MPH in a shade over 5 seconds. Wow! an "old man's sedan? Hardly !

Compare its specs to that of an XJS and you'll see why an XJR "eats them for lunch" along with most of the MBs and BMWs of that era and many even later models . At the time , many agreed that the XJR was the fastest production sedan in the world. Clearly, the "R" is in a league all by itself hence a major factor in its high desirability in the years ahead . again JMO

As to your Ford design comment... Ford did not design anything Jaguar. What they did do was provide a huge capital investment in Jaguar engineered ( Jeff Lawson and David Szczupak), authored designs and most importantly massive production and reliability costly improvements . Much to Fords credit they didn't meddle with Jaguars "image" as a premier English motor car and Jaguar's legendary "mystique" was preserved.

I don't know if you ever owned or had ever driven 2002 or 03 XJR and really let it rip but when you push the "sport mode" button and the massive MB trannie changes shift points ,the car becomes a rocket ship..Scary actually.... if you had ever driven one you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for an interesting discussion

 

Definitely a 2-door bias in the collector car world. Many manufacturers used to make both 2 and 4 door versions of their popular cars (including Jaguar briefly). While the sedan was generally more expensive when new, the 2-door is now worth twice or more as its larger sibling. I don't think it has anything to do with rarity as it isn't universally the case that the sedan version sold in larger numbers. Often the 2-door sold more because it was cheaper.

My theory is again what was popular when one was young becomes collectable. I grew up in the era where if a young man was driving a 4-door car, it meant one thing, his parents got a new car and he got the hand-me-down. Teenagers could be mean and would tease you if you drove the wrong kind of car. With that safely tucked away in subconscious memory, collectors go straight for the two-door cars.

Future generations won't have that bias as by the 90s, most manufacturers had stopped building 2-door versions of their popular sedans altogether. Even most trucks sold in the last 20 years here in the states are 4-door cabs. Plus teenagers values had changed to be more interested in taking their friends along for the ride than in racing their friends to their destination. Four doors is now the norm, but it will be still a couple of decades till the Millenial generation starts collecting cars, if at all.

 

I own two 02 R's .. one bought new. I also bought a 98 VDP new and a 95 VDP new. It was all Fords work on the X300 when it came out in 1994 .. IMO the X350 design was a miss.

They were big and fast for the day .. I also had a 996tt at the same time .. so speed is relative. Many run of the mill cars will easily outrun the R today. But that's to be expected for a car 15+ years out of production.

I'm not at all arguing the cars merits -- but the market will view it as nothing more than an old sedan for a few more years. Having one 10 -15 years from now in perfect condition will make it an oddity

Does it make sense .. buy one now when available and cheap and lock it away. Most likely not ... put the money into BAIDU and buy what you want in 12 years w/ money left over.

I love the cars ... but I can't make it into a two door convertible ... that's what the collector market wants

 

You could be right about "the market" coming for the XJR . Only time will tell.
Meanwhile ,my wife and I are enjoying the car so much that it's not about what it is worth to others and really never was. We plan to hang on to it and enjoy our little summer cruises and then pass it on to which ever one of our kids wants to make the effort to keep it up. If no one wants the burden of maintaining it then selling makes sense.

Glad to hear that you've had the XJR experience. They really go like hell don't they ? The first time I drove one I was absolutely shocked at how fast it was and thought how can a car this big and heavy be this quick ? I never realized how much a blower ( supercharger) makes on a normally aspirated engine.

Yes , I totally agree that the X350 was a bust. Jaguar caved in to the consumer pressure about the trunk space and the car being difficult to get in and out of..... so they raised the height and shortened the body and the absolutely gorgeous lines and appearance of the low slung X308 were lost.

Oh well... Hey, thanks again for an interesting discussion !

 

I couldn't disagree more on the "Sedan" and need to be a two-door convertible to be collectible.
Examples of four-doors "Sedans" from the X308 era that are on the upswing are the Mercedes 210 chassis E55-AMG, the BMW M5 -E39, the Maserati Quattroporte IV Bi-turbo, and the Audi A8,
All are much better comparables than the Mercedes W108-109 Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3, or 126 chassis 560SEL from the 70's and 80's.
Four-door luxury Sports Sedans were a hot item at the turn of the century, and much sought after by the guys in their late teens, twenties, and thirties, but the high cost made them unattainable. Those guys are now in their forties and fifties and find the cars that they loved are now attainable. That is how market upswings happen.

 

Never said a "sedan" could not be collectable ... it's a relative value question. Value of a two door convertible does not negate someone wanting or keeping a X308. I actually owned a W210 AMG for a while -- still own a W210 wagon. They built very few AMG vehicles back then vs how they are everywhere in the modern lineup .. time will tell with that particular MB. I wold say the AMG value has stopped falling vs really increasing very much ... they can be had for good prices ... especially when you think how much more they sold for over a typical V8 example,

The XJ has been around since 68 w/ the 12cyl coming online for 72 .. I used the value of the W108's because they were the competition back then. And the W126 was the around for the series III .. a very attractive car.

This thread started around finding a value -- you can wish a value ... but, they are worth what the market will pay. Unfortunately, Ford's big mistake when the x300 was launched was the failure to address the brands well deserved reliability/ build reputation. They should have increased the warranty level beyond the competition and advertised it from the mountain top. The car had a competitive warranty and Jaguar was a leader in the CPO market ... they thought building two great cars would be enough. Not enough. It is what it is .. Jaguar sedans lag a bit in value VS the other euro counterparts ... not that an S class or offerings from audi/bmw do much better. (few thousand) They are all just used cars in the market place at 15 years old or so. The Maserati is viewed differently -- but again look at the value vs what the car cost new. Go price a used Panamera .. ouch for the original owner ... it's why I lease my current Cayenne.

Look at what a 15 year old Bentley/RR sedan sells for ... its amazing what 30k will get you ..and they were north of 200k.

 

They are great cars .. I love mine. That's why I want a spare. Keep one at each of my weekend places -- while I don't often drive them long distance any more I do take them back and forth to the city occasionally .. puts a couple hundred miles on them for exercise.

 

I collect a lot of things, it's just my nature.
Cars, firearms, coins and antique knives.
In every category, I find the collector markets are slipping. People just don't collect much of anything anymore, and all markets are hurting.
I fear the younger generations (X's and Millenials) view automobiles much differently than previous generations. Many of them view automobiles as a way to get from point A to B. Many just lease disposable appliance type econoboxes and chalk it up to a transportation payment.
The collector car market is very strange right now, with many of the top 10 market uptrends being trucks and SUV's from the 60's and 70's. The cars that were hot a decade or two ago are fading fast. The Tri-Five Chevrolets are fading as the old guys that like them are dying off. I don't know what the muscle car market will do in the next decade.
The only advice I have for the collector market now is; Buy what you like to drive, not what you'll think will appreciate. And hope these young kids develop an interest,

 

I've been participating in car shows for just over 30 years. I first noticed the decline of the Model A's about twenty years ago. Back in 90s it wasn't uncommon to have two dozen original Model A's at any given show, attended by a group of grey-haired men all wearing their club vests, festooned with patches denoting many club events. Now we're lucky to see one original Model A and I haven't seen one of those vests in a long time. Those men are gone but I'm sure all those restored Model A's are still out there somewhere, probably sitting in some family's garage, not wanting to sell grandpa's car, but not interested in taking it out either. I don't know what inflation-adjusted values have done, but when such a car passes down to a great-grandchild who never met his elder, I'm sure they'll sell it for whatever they can get.

I think muscle cars tho will have a much longer peak period as by the late 60s, you could get optional power everything and thus some are comfortable to drive in modern city traffic. Thus they will appeal to a larger audience beyond just those who grew up with them. I'd love to have it but what could I do with my grandfather's '27 Chevy but trailer to a show or parade once in a blue moon?

Gen X, which I am one of the first, we drove muscle cars in high school because by the early 80s, they were fully depreciated. While we lusted after the newest Japanese sports cars in the 80s, we enjoyed our rusty old v8s and would like to have them back. The only problem is that financially, most of my cohort is ten years behind saving for retirement compared to the pensions our boomer parents were already vested in by age 50. Heck, we're expecting to have our adult children (Millennials) living at home into their 30s so car collecting is just going to come later in life for much of Gen X.

Hard to predict what will happen to muscle car values in ten years. I don't expect the bottom to drop out but the boomers will likely start selling to pay their nursing home bills and I'll be there to add to my collection.

 

I'm an old house guy .... a serial remodeler. Was always going to auctions to furnish and fix -- the market for so many things has imploded with disastrous results for some who thought they were sitting on some wealth. The auto market is no exception -- a very small slice doing well.

 

Started working on a TR4A's before I got my license -- not knowing what a dreadful thing it was to drive ... especially since my mother had a very early SL at the time (350). My brother and I did a few -- he still has one. For me if I can't drive it .. I don't want it ... this was a change from an earlier generation. I can still take out my dads W109 ... pushing 50 years old and still be in complete comfort -- and it's reliable enough to drive 100 miles to the beach -- also safe.

There will always be some of that wanting a car from childhood -- we just don't have the same car culture today. Saw a very nice low mile AR Graduate convertable a few weeks ago .. really perfect condition. I seriously thought about buying for a moment .. but I'm never going to use it ... reality. Thankful I unloaded car before the downturn