XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

About to lump....

 
  #21  
Old 04-16-2019, 10:29 AM
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Default One last (maybe?) interesting note....

In the post above I included a pic of one of our customer's LT1 cars. I hadn't looked at that pic in a while and it reminded me of a great story related to that car and that customer. The summary of the story is he is our only customer who made money doing a conversion. If you're interested, the story is below.

This car and my XJSC were among the first LT1 cars done using our kit and related parts. Back then, early/mid 2000's, the LT1 was still a fairly new engine and the aftermarket was still getting in place to support it. Anyway, one of the challenges for any conversion is to get everything to work and sometimes the gauges are a challenge. In the case of the 83-87 XJ6/VDP and 82-87 XJS, Jaguar used an electric speedometer with a dedicated and unique speed transducer on the transmission. Mechanically adapting that (Jag) unit to the GM transmission was possible but not simple or inexpensive. My customer wanted to use something purely electronic, but what was out there on the market (from places like Dakota Digital, etc.,.) did not work well, if at all, with the Jag speedometer. He tried them all and was unimpressed, so he actually went out and designed a special GM-Jaguar speedometer interface that took in the GM 4000ppm signal on one side and spit out the correct Jag signal (to the speedometer) on the other. He included a wide range adjustment pot for tuning for different tires sizes/axle ratios. And guess what?? It worked perfectly. Once he told me about it, he became our supplier for his special piece, and several hundred units later, it is out in the field all over the world... He has made back probably 10 times what he spent with us on conversion parts and he continues to make that piece (only) for us to this day (it also works perfectly for the LS conversions).

And it's not just our customers using it. Over the years we've had many of John's Cars customers call to ask for it as well (since the Dakota Digital-based piece they supply in their kit doesn't really work well or at all). Even Carl (JagCad on this forum) who used Johns Cars kit, has our speedo interface....

Best regards

Andrew
Jaguar Specialties

PS- this customer's approach also got me thinking back then about how we handled the tachometer for conversions. In those days, getting the tach to read correctly involved removing it from the dash, opening it up, and adding some resistors and/or capacitors. Not simple, not that easy, and should the tach ever fail in the future, the owner would have to go back in and do the same mods over again on the new Jag tach. And these mods were never perfect- the tach readings were close but not right on. We took a different route from then on and began using an offboard calibration unit installed electrically between the engine (or ECM) and the tach itself that could be set to provide the proper correction factor, whether it was 1:2, 1:3, 2:1, or whatever. Those units precisely change the pulse frequency so the tach reads perfectly. And best of all, the Jag tach stayed stock (no need to even remove the tach from the dash), and if a new tach was ever needed, any identical Jag unit could be plugged in and then you were done... We've done it this way since with great results... And not one failure of a calibration unit in 10+ years
 
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  #22  
Old 04-16-2019, 10:35 AM
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Durn lazy computer ! Stalling as to opening the great pictures, I'm sure by Sanchez and Andrew.

Tips"
1. there are a pair of wires secluded deep in the transmission tunnel. they need to be pulled in to the console. I did not know that til the engine and trans were in place. they are still there., I could not find them, much less extract them. I did some kind of a work around.

2. Lumper Bob Loftus made a transparency for me. "CHECK ENGINE".. The Jaguar Ow light receptacle comes our easily and parts easily. Remove the bplstic bit and install the transparency.. I forgot the wire detail. But, it works great and even impressed my SMOG Special referee.

3. I installed the ALDL along a paired set of fuse boxes on the passenger stay bar.

4. I removed the teeny Jaguar relay rack just under the bolt that secures the stay bars tot the cowl. All relays except the horn and lights reside there, in neat row. And, a ground bus to the side of them. all grounds except the start inhibitor wire ground there. The bus in turn terminates on the wing on the same bolt that battery = is attached. No poor ground paths!!!

5/ Beware of "losing" the passenger side of the lamp harness when installing the radiator. I did !!! I made another!!!

In my view, either "kit" can work just fine. I do like Andrew's "GM path" concept.

Enjoy the challenge. That first drive around the block is something!!!

Carl
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:41 AM
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Ps:

Yup, the Dakota digital just can't quite make the conversion. In spite of efforts by the el;ectric guy at John's and the one at Dakota!!!

Alas, I've not installed the one I got from Andrew!!! Speedo reads 49, I've tested and that means a reall 25!!!

Carl
 
  #24  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Yellow series3 View Post
It might not be easier but it can be a whole lot more fun. I have a pristine stock 87 and a 79 with a very mild 305 cid with 4-speed automatic. The 87 is a thing of beauty but the 79 is a blast to drive. One of the Florida conversion guys told me that an experienced mechanic should be able to do the conversion in 40 hours. Don't know if that included gauges, etc.

I would definitely try to get the corvette cooling system. You didn't say but I'm guessing your getting all the hang ons like alternator, power steering pump, a/c compressor, belts, brackets, etc.

Good luck; looking forward to reports, pics, etc.

Jeff
It sounds like he's chasing "trust" rather than fun. It doesn't make sense to me to essentially re-engineer the whole powerplant and associated electronic systems. If something goes wrong, and there countless things that can, his oil light issue will be nothing by comparison. It's probably something silly like a clogged oil filter or bad pressure sensor to begin with.

Another thing to keep in mind is car value. Seeing what great condition V12 XJS models are going for now I am sure anyone who lumped his is now deeply regretting it.

How many E-Types are out there with Chevy power? If there are any, how much are they worth compared to appropriately powered ones? Jay Leno did a segment on a restored car that was rebuilt to near factory specs and condition. The owner could have lumped it with any engine but chose to keep it stock.
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:44 PM
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Most of us don't own these cars to sell them, even eventually, although eventually we might, and most of us know that.
Most of own our Jaguars to DRIVE them! And yes, we want to TRUST them while we Drive the Wheels Off!

If we can't TRUST the car, no matter what power plant it has, it's just plain Not Fun so What's the Point?! If not install a power plant we WANT, one we feel we can TRUST (even a, ((shudder)) Chevy), might as well sell it, with its low oil pressure or other problems, tick, tick,ticking time bomb etc., for a dollar 2.98 and pick up a beige Camry.

E-types are in a class by themselves. Darren's car is not an E-type, or an XjS, or even a v-12, and will never be worth a Fraction of what a well sorted E-type might bring on sale day. Jay Leno et al has the Cubic Cash to restore Any sort of car he might feel like, to any condition he desires or deems appropriate.

Meanwhile, most of us deal with unreliable engines as best we know how. If that means rising to the challenge of Lumping (sounds like fun to me, but I already have one) then I can't think of a better way to spend a couple or 3 months cloistered safely in the garage with air conditioning, ample refreshments and good tunes.
(';')
 
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
Most of own our Jaguars to DRIVE them! And yes, we want to TRUST them while we Drive the Wheels Off!
Right on !

They're not made of glass.



Meanwhile, most of us deal with unreliable engines as best we know how. If that means rising to the challenge of Lumping (sounds like fun to me, but I already have one) then I can't think of a better way to spend a couple or 3 months cloistered safely in the garage with air conditioning, ample refreshments and good tunes.
(';')

There are many ways to enjoy the hobby. May it ever be thus. Sometimes the journey is as enjoyable as the destination, and challenges are fun.

Me? I tickled with how my V12 conversion turned out. And I'll admit to being a bit chuffed at having a V12 Jag as true daily-driver. There can't be many left serving that role nowadays

Cheers
DD
 
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
Most of us don't own these cars to sell them, even eventually, although eventually we might, and most of us know that.
Most of own our Jaguars to DRIVE them! And yes, we want to TRUST them while we Drive the Wheels Off!

If we can't TRUST the car, no matter what power plant it has, it's just plain Not Fun so What's the Point?! If not install a power plant we WANT, one we feel we can TRUST (even a, ((shudder)) Chevy), might as well sell it, with its low oil pressure or other problems, tick, tick,ticking time bomb etc., for a dollar 2.98 and pick up a beige Camry.

E-types are in a class by themselves. Darren's car is not an E-type, or an XjS, or even a v-12, and will never be worth a Fraction of what a well sorted E-type might bring on sale day. Jay Leno et al has the Cubic Cash to restore Any sort of car he might feel like, to any condition he desires or deems appropriate.

Meanwhile, most of us deal with unreliable engines as best we know how. If that means rising to the challenge of Lumping (sounds like fun to me, but I already have one) then I can't think of a better way to spend a couple or 3 months cloistered safely in the garage with air conditioning, ample refreshments and good tunes.
(';')
You make it sound like the 4.2 and V12 are unreliable pieces of junk just itching to leave you stranded somewhere. You know, perpetuating the dumb myth that is all too common and hurting the marque's sales. When they're really world renowned engines that are at the heart of the entire Jaguar experience. If you can't trust the car, any car, you find out what the trouble area is and do preventative maintenance on it.

I can bet you that even completely rebuilding an authentic powerplant would not be more than a lumping job, so cost isn't the factor here. To me it would be more satisfying to rise to the challenge of making a 30+ year old "unreliable" Jaguar into a daily driver than completely altering it. That way when somebody says something like "isn't it unreliable?" You can respond with, "nope, I drive it daily and it's all original."

I will say that those who lump simply don't have a genuine appreciation for these cars. That's why there are 80's Camaros and Corvettes, I also say. I will ask, how many Aston Martin, Maserati, Bentley, etc owners of older models put in Chevrolet powerplants? LOL
 
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2019, 06:22 AM
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Ok, for the record... I bought the car in 06 with every intention of lumping it, but it ran quite well, so I decided to go with what I had, 13 years later, I have had enough of trying to keep the 4.2 running... the oil issue is not something silly or simple.. engine is simply tired. It has had the the issue through numerous oil changes, therefore not a blocked filter, I have dropped bottom end and replaced all bearings, and replaced cam bearings too. That helped in the beginning but now it's back to doing it again...
This is my car, and it's getting pumped, my original post was a statement saying I would have question along the line, I did not ask for opinions on if I should do it. It's being done!
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Darrenmb View Post
Ok, for the record... I bought the car in 06 with every intention of lumping it, but it ran quite well, so I decided to go with what I had, 13 years later, I have had enough of trying to keep the 4.2 running... the oil issue is not something silly or simple.. engine is simply tired. It has had the the issue through numerous oil changes, therefore not a blocked filter, I have dropped bottom end and replaced all bearings, and replaced cam bearings too. That helped in the beginning but now it's back to doing it again...
This is my car, and it's getting pumped, my original post was a statement saying I would have question along the line, I did not ask for opinions on if I should do it. It's being done!
So, let me get this straight.

You don't harbor any actual dislike towards Jaguar engines but yours is now worn out. You've decided that a V8 conversion works best for you; that's what you want to do, as a matter of choice.

Do I have that right?

I don't see a problem.

Cheers
DD
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AJ16er View Post

I will say that those who lump simply don't have a genuine appreciation for these cars.

Judge not lest thee be judged !

That's why there are 80's Camaros and Corvettes, I also say. I will ask, how many Aston Martin, Maserati, Bentley, etc owners of older models put in Chevrolet powerplants? LOL
Well, that sort of stuff IS out there.

Just yesterday I was driving a 1963 Ferrari 250 with a small block Chevy in it. Beautiful car; drives wonderfully. How it came to have a SBC installed, I dunno.

Anyhow, there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. I took an XJ6 with a dead engine and brought it back to life by installing a Jag V12. That was my preference. Others use an American V8. Some have used later model Jag engines. I've seen some older Jags with 4.3 Chevy V6s installed.

It's all a matter of choice.

Cheers
DD
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:39 AM
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I resolved the tach problem (S1 tach is different that S2/S3) by converting the internals to modern stuff.. works perfectly.

The speedo problem was totally resolved, S1 speedo and odometer are two parts in one, changed them in side the speedo,
changed the trans gears but then changed my rear end to 2:88's. S1 never had that ratio so there were no combinations that
were really accurate. Added a GPS speedo inside the old housing...works 100% perfectly for speed and distance.

My Jaguar experiences with Jag engines consist of driving someones Jag backwards out of my hard to get into garage - about
40 feet. The rest of the experience has been with four Lumps. I plan to keep my S1 XJ that is my daily driver and someday remove
the SBC brand new crate engine 383/200R that is now converted to modern TBI injection (has a tablet to see all the operations
and make changes).

I have looked into the latest LT4 engine as adding a supercharger would be another step forward. Just not sure yet if it will fit under
the stock hooD with the Jaguar front suspension cross member. Would also change the rear end to a after market IRS with modern
brakes and components. Remember IT IS JUST A CAR!

In fact, I spent more time and money trying to make my carb work perfectly than the EFI conversion costs! Finally got the AFR ratio
to do 15.2-15.5 crusing on level ground, stop and start 99% of the time (they are weather dependent) and added the AC solenoid
to up the idle with the AC. All the stuff that EFI does automatically. Now I just turn the key and it starts and turn it off with no
run on. Fuel injection is a BIG step forward in cars and planes...
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
So, let me get this straight.

You don't harbor any actual dislike towards Jaguar engines but yours is now worn out. You've decided that a V8 conversion works best for you; that's what you want to do, as a matter of choice.

Do I have that right?

I don't see a problem.

Cheers
DD
BINGO!!
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:33 AM
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Personal Choice and Individual Preference!
Let them Reign Supreme!
(';')
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:33 AM
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Agree! Darren is past the option choice. On the "lump" path. Sharing experience and seeking guidance from those that have been there. Sure seems reasonable to me.

I look forward to the story and pictures.

For what it might be worth. My Jaguar is not for sale. Resale value not considered when we bought it. I've "invested" far more in it than I could ever recoup. I've bought and sold many critters over a lot of years. Don't recall ever breaking even, let alone making money!!

And, aye, I liked my car as DOHC powered. When it went nuts, I deliberated long and hard before I chose to lump it. UI wrote a "white paper". I found a paper draft amongst my belongings. Scan back in to "documents"??/ Probably not. 8 or 9 pages! I think it exists in the archives at J-L.
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Judge not lest thee be judged !



Well, that sort of stuff IS out there.

Just yesterday I was driving a 1963 Ferrari 250 with a small block Chevy in it. Beautiful car; drives wonderfully. How it came to have a SBC installed, I dunno.

Anyhow, there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. I took an XJ6 with a dead engine and brought it back to life by installing a Jag V12. That was my preference. Others use an American V8. Some have used later model Jag engines. I've seen some older Jags with 4.3 Chevy V6s installed.

It's all a matter of choice.

Cheers
DD

They may exist but they're certainly not common. What's the 250 worth compared to an original one? Installing other Jag engines is one thing. You're more than welcome to judge me all you want if you feel I am wrong. I will counter back if I feel you're wrong. So far nobody has addressed in depth the labor hours, complexity, and costs associated with both lumping and rebuilding.

The OP doesn't want my opinion, that's fine and I have no ill feelings towards him. It is his car afterall, I am just trying to have a discussion going.
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 11:33 AM
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I am risking a reply. Probably should just leave it be.

AJ: Whether I agree with you or not, doesn't matter. I strongly support your right to have that view.

Well, how much is a 250 with a blown engine worth? If you want to stay on the $'s part.
One that runs with an SBC is probably worth more than the original that will not run.

Oh, the $ thing. Cost to fix blown Ferrari engine!!!!!

Done for me. I'll leave the thread alone til it gets back on Darren's project or comments as to the work...

Andrew has

Carl

Carl
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:10 PM
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I understand the purists out there, but its not blasphemy to lump a Jag. Since I did the GM conversion, my driveway and garage floor are pristine. No more Jaguar engines leaving their mark wherever I park.
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:47 PM
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i have a long history of unusual cars , 70yrs worth of very rare cars! (yeah i know shoulda kept them)!

believe me when i got my RHD RUST bucket from UK, guys said aint worth a dollar didnt run engine seized, JUNK it!!

but i fell in love with the V12 engine,that says the whole and complete story! i was /am still infatuated with it , of course 25yrs and around 45K (guessing)


i dont even think about it!
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:52 PM
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NOW dont get me wrong , i grew up with the INFAMOUS small block chevy, i also do love the LS series engine,(it just maybe a better engine,got one in an 1985 Buick GN).

but there is something about the MAGIC of saying its a JAGUAR V12 cylinder ALL Aluminum engine tho, and watching the reaction of people!
ron
 
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:59 PM
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1985 Buick Grand national LS2 power,, blew up original V6 turbo twice ,second time nothin left salvagable!

homely looking car but goes like hell.

6.0L LS2, 4L80E trans!
 
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