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Can solve the problem of overheat by replacing twin pans?

XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

Can solve the problem of overheat by replacing twin pans?

 
  #21  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:13 AM
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Hosung:

Oh, but you did change the cooli8ng system. the radiator and it's shrpoud aka cowl are integral parts of it

the spacer is to place the fan in the cowl. aka shroud r very close to it Objective. maximum pull of air through the fin s of the radiator. Too far back and it is pulling "other" air

And, the alignment of some systems, as to coolant includes a high spot. Air gets trapped there. No coolant, that means a hot spot that heats the rest. \\The beed process is to remove the air, allowing that space to be filled with coolant.

Follow the bleed instructions and all should velar up...

Carl
 
  #22  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
OK, understand the beast now.

2 attachments:

1) Bleeding the system, and the PreHE is at the bottom, BUT, the top section has a lot that applies to the PreHE.
2) V12 stats fiasco, meaning Jaguar got it wrong, and that was back in the early 90's, and the stats they had were too short, NOT good at all, and havoc is reeked by using them. I understand you have replaced them, and that is NOT a 5 minute task, but are they too short?????, sadly, until they are removed and measured at "full open" you will never know.

Have fun.


I replaced banjo bolt and thermostat. However, after about 50 minutes of idle time, the thermometer needle points the end of the letter and the coolant flows out. So I put the fan in front of the bumper and turned on, the temperature went down slowly.

I replaced the aluminum radiator, oem thermostat, banjo bolt and oem fan clutch but the coolant still flows out. What is the problem?
Will it be better to remove the thermostat?

And.....
Shouldn't the fan run fast when the engine temperature goes up?
But my car is not.
Is there a problem with the fan clutch?


TRIDON TT2033-180(MOTORAD) WAXSTAT (OEM)
open 39mm 43mm
close 29mm 30mm
->This is the result of the actual measurement of the thermostat I purchased.


Thank you in advance.

Hosung


 
  #23  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:26 PM
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OK,

The fan clutch "should" almost lock up at IDLE when radiator air temp is hot enough to close the ports inside said hub. It will "slip" at higher revs to save the fan blades from premature fracture,, NORMAL.

When this thing reads HOT, shut down the engine. Reach in, spin that fan, it should barely rotate. If it does rotate more than 1/2 a turn, its a dud.

The fan shroud is critical on these early engines, and if its not fitted properly, you will never cool the thing.

The small LH electric fan should be coming on at that temp, is it??. If NO, then either there is air in the thing AT that sensor, or the sensor,/electrical circuits, are AWOL. If all that stuff checks out, then the engine aint that hot, and there are other gremlins causing you grief.

Also, if that coolant is coming out after an initial filling from cold, that is also NORMAL. DO NOT refill it, it will find its own level, providing there are no leaks of course, as I have said.

The pressure cap is also a prime suspect, it may be STAMPED 13/14/15psi, BUT is it actually holding pressure. Mine was stamped as 13psi on the HE and I had coolant leaking issues, and eventually found that the NEW cap a blowing off at 4psi, bugga.

The fact you put another fan in front and it cools down is a prime for fan hub issues.

Also, I strongly suggest an aftermarket style temp gauge be adapted to one of the many ports available, so a true reading can be obtained. The dash unit is possibly OK, but it must be checked.
 

Last edited by Grant Francis; 04-12-2019 at 02:36 AM.
  #24  
Old 04-12-2019, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
...Also, if that coolant is coming out after an initial filling from cold, that is also NORMAL. DO NOT refill it, it will find its own level, providing there are no leaks of course, as I have said....
I had a Chrysler 440 once (until 2015 actually), that would Not stop puking Green coolant all over a parking lot after a long, hot run if I insisted on filling to "recommended" level. The needle Never showed HOT but there was Mucho Stress and I was more than a little concerned the first time it happened.

I filled the reservoir Right to the line as I thought Surely something was wrong! But if I got distracted and didn't fill the overflow tank to the Recommendation line, no problem, with either overheating or loss of coolant!
(';')
 
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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Something like chasing a problem were there is none!!!


Aye, As Grant says. placing another fan in front of the car is providing the air flow that the engine fan is not providing.

And, no. T'stats properly working are a gotta be.
Carl
 
  #26  
Old 04-12-2019, 09:17 PM
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OK, stopped work on the mighty X Type, as I have been thinking about this cooling system, and making too many mistakes on my car, bugga.

That stat Part # did NOT make sense, and bugged the crap out of me, and a quick look at the Tridon website, shows it as a 31mm CLOSED stat, and that will NOT open to 43mm, as best I can find out. 8-9mm is about FLAT OUT stroke length of the wax bulb in any stat, SOOOOOOOO, you are ending up at 39-40mm FULLY open, TOO short.

The Tridon number I used, and written in that write up, is TT228-180, and is 35mm closed, and 43mm fully open, perfect. I have never use their "high flow" stats, way too expensive down here, and the standard throat stat is just fine in MY opinion.

I still reckon you are NOT closing that by-pass port/s and the engine and cooling system cannot operate correctly until that port/s close 100%.

Looking up stats for the V12 in the aftermarket world will get you the short ones every time. I have worked in the aftermarket Parts World for 50+ years and they get it wrong, and are very slow to correct errors, if ever. They claim their info comes from the OE suppliers, HAHA.

Outside the box thinking is sometimes the best.
 

Last edited by Grant Francis; 04-13-2019 at 04:41 AM. Reason: spelling still sucks
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  #27  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
OK, stopped work on the mighty X Type, as I have been thinking about this cooling system, and making too many mistakes on my car, bugga.

That stat Part # did NOT make sense, and bugged the crap out of me, and a quick look at the Tridon website, shows it as a 31mm CLOSED stat, and that will NOT open to 43mm, as best I can find out. 8-9mm is about FLAT OUT stroke length of the wax bulb in any stat, SOOOOOOOO, you are ending up at 39-40mm FULLY open, TOO short.

The Tridon number I used, and written in that write up, is TT228-180, and is 35mm closed, and 43mm fully open, perfect. I have never use their "high flow" stats, way too expensive down here, and the standard throat stat is just fine in MY opinion.

I still reckon you are NOT closing that by-pass port/s and the engine and cooling system cannot operate correctly until that port/s close 100%.

Looking up stats for the V12 in the aftermarket world will get you the short ones every time. I have worked in the aftermarket Parts World for 50+ years and they get it wrong, and are very slow to correct errors, if ever. They claim their info comes from the OE suppliers, HAHA.

Outside the box thinking is sometimes the best.
Hello,
I'm still trying to lower the temperature of the engine.
I blocked up the area around Shroud. It has had some cooling effect.

But when I drive today, it goes above 100 degrees on the stop. However, it is maintained at around 90 degrees when driving.
The high temperature at the stop shows that the problem has not been solved yet.
I thought removing the thermostat would keep the temperature low, so I drove with the thermostat on both sides removed.
Did removing the thermostat interfere with cooling?

I found this web while searching. ( Solid Fan Clutch )

Will replacing fans and adapters in this way help cool down?

Thank you for always giving me a detailed answer.







 
  #28  
Old 06-15-2019, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mmac867 View Post
Hello,
I'm still trying to lower the temperature of the engine.
I blocked up the area around Shroud. It has had some cooling effect.

But when I drive today, it goes above 100 degrees on the stop. However, it is maintained at around 90 degrees when driving.
The high temperature at the stop shows that the problem has not been solved yet.
I thought removing the thermostat would keep the temperature low, so I drove with the thermostat on both sides removed.
Did removing the thermostat interfere with cooling?

I found this web while searching. ( Solid Fan Clutch )

Will replacing fans and adapters in this way help cool down?

Thank you for always giving me a detailed answer.
Removing the stats will NEVER cool a V12. That by-pass port on each side is now wide open, so 40%++ of the coolant will NEVER see the radiator. It will circulate constantly via the water pump by-pass inlet and continue to get hotter and hotter. The remaining coolant, that by some bizarre chance, is going via the radiator will now get pre-heated, with almost boiling coolant as it enters the engine, so the temp gauge will rise, and at some point engine damage will occur.

You MUST run stats in this engine, and as I have explained, the CORRECT length, as that by-pass port MUST be closed, or you are simply wasting your time. Once that port is closed on both sides, the coolant is 100% traveling via the radiator, and being cooled by approx 15C, and then re-entering the engine cooled enough to absorb more heat and go in circles once more, AND, the temp gauge will sit where it is designed to sit.

Remember, 82C stats OPEN at 82C, and are fully open at 94C, so top hose temps would "float" around 90C, So, 88C stats will open at 88C, and be fully open at 100C, so top hose temp would "float" around 97C.

The STANDARD Jaguar double pass radiator will cool that top hose temp by APPROX 15C. Sooooo 82C stat will then give APP 75c BOTTOM hose temp, and 88C stat will be APPROX 83C.
The small electric fan switch, in the water pump inlet housing is set at 85C, MY MARKET, so when the system does as designed, the BOTTOM hose temp is below its activation temp, and that fan stays OFF. A slight hiccup, radiator clogging, stats stuck, air flow below requirements, pressure cap pre-releasing, whatever, and the BOTTOM hose temp will rise quickly, and that electric fan will switch ON.

VERY simple and efficient system, BUT, it relies on ALL the components working correctly, at all times.
 
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  #29  
Old 06-15-2019, 03:36 AM
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Forgot, it happens.

DO NOT lock up that fan clutch. It will have the fan rotating at speeds it was never designed for, and blade seperation WILL occur.

If the hydraulic hub is dodgy, or the age of it is unknown, REPLACE it, and cross it off the list of things you are chasing.

All my S2 cars, 6cyl and V12, had the temp needle sitting on the :R" of the printed "NORMAL" of the temp gauge, and in our 47C summers, sometimes rose to the "M" in traffic. A/C on, and 82C stats in all of them. The V12 had Efans later in the ownership, when the steel fan exploded from age, temps stayed the same, but the 6cyl cars were all as made in the UK.
 
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  #30  
Old 06-15-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mmac867 View Post
But when I drive today, it goes above 100 degrees on the stop. However, it is maintained at around 90 degrees when driving.
The high temperature at the stop shows that the problem has not been solved yet.
Grant already spoke about removing the thermostats.

Earlier, before removing them, did you bleed the cooling, as mentioned? It's essential to do so. And sometimes it takes 2-3 tries to get all the air out.

Cheers
DD
 
  #31  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
Removing the stats will NEVER cool a V12. That by-pass port on each side is now wide open, so 40%++ of the coolant will NEVER see the radiator. It will circulate constantly via the water pump by-pass inlet and continue to get hotter and hotter. The remaining coolant, that by some bizarre chance, is going via the radiator will now get pre-heated, with almost boiling coolant as it enters the engine, so the temp gauge will rise, and at some point engine damage will occur.

You MUST run stats in this engine, and as I have explained, the CORRECT length, as that by-pass port MUST be closed, or you are simply wasting your time. Once that port is closed on both sides, the coolant is 100% traveling via the radiator, and being cooled by approx 15C, and then re-entering the engine cooled enough to absorb more heat and go in circles once more, AND, the temp gauge will sit where it is designed to sit.

Remember, 82C stats OPEN at 82C, and are fully open at 94C, so top hose temps would "float" around 90C, So, 88C stats will open at 88C, and be fully open at 100C, so top hose temp would "float" around 97C.

The STANDARD Jaguar double pass radiator will cool that top hose temp by APPROX 15C. Sooooo 82C stat will then give APP 75c BOTTOM hose temp, and 88C stat will be APPROX 83C.
The small electric fan switch, in the water pump inlet housing is set at 85C, MY MARKET, so when the system does as designed, the BOTTOM hose temp is below its activation temp, and that fan stays OFF. A slight hiccup, radiator clogging, stats stuck, air flow below requirements, pressure cap pre-releasing, whatever, and the BOTTOM hose temp will rise quickly, and that electric fan will switch ON.

VERY simple and efficient system, BUT, it relies on ALL the components working correctly, at all times.


Okay. I'll order the thermostat TT228-180 and replace it.
I'll let you know the result.
Thank you very much for your help.
 
  #32  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Grant already spoke about removing the thermostats.

Earlier, before removing them, did you bleed the cooling, as mentioned? It's essential to do so. And sometimes it takes 2-3 tries to get all the air out.

Cheers
DD



Did bleed. But not anymore.
 
  #33  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
Forgot, it happens.

DO NOT lock up that fan clutch. It will have the fan rotating at speeds it was never designed for, and blade seperation WILL occur.

If the hydraulic hub is dodgy, or the age of it is unknown, REPLACE it, and cross it off the list of things you are chasing.

All my S2 cars, 6cyl and V12, had the temp needle sitting on the :R" of the printed "NORMAL" of the temp gauge, and in our 47C summers, sometimes rose to the "M" in traffic. A/C on, and 82C stats in all of them. The V12 had Efans later in the ownership, when the steel fan exploded from age, temps stayed the same, but the 6cyl cars were all as made in the UK.





Hello,
Thank you very much for your sincere reply every time.
I bought TT228-180 thermostats from Australia and put it on today. Attach photos of 'after 20 minutes of idling', and 'after 30 minutes of idling'. The weather was 30 degrees today.
There is no big difference in coolant temperature in the three cases, 1. when using the OEM thermostat, 2. when removing the thermostats, and 3. when the newly purchased thermostat is used.
So is it not about the thermostat?



after 30 minutes of idling. coolant temp is about 96 degrees. coolant temperatures continue to rise after 30 minutes.








after 20 minutes of idling. coolant temp is about 92 degrees.







If i put the fan in front of the car, the proper temperature(about 90 degrees) of the coolant is maintained.







Radiator fans and a fan clutch of my car.






In restoring the car, I replaced the cooling system as follows.
1. Aluminum radiator exchanged
2.Banjo bolt exchanged
2. Exchanges of Fan clutch
4. Replace the thermostat (TT228-180)

At this point, I doubt the radiator fan. At IDLE when radiator air temp is hot, the fan moves lightly.
And as in the picture I have attached, If I put a fan in front of the car, the temperature of the radiator maintains the proper temperature. Or, If the engine speed is increased by stepping on the accelerator, the proper temperature of the radiator is maintained.


I think I should complement the fan or the fan clutch, but I don't know how.
Please advise me what to do to solve the coolant temperature problem.
Thank you in advance.




 
  #34  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:41 AM
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If you spend a lot of time idling in traffic, then you might have reason to be concerned.
Out on the open road engine temp Always falls due to more air flow across the rad, just like when you put the fan in front.
(';')
 
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  #35  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:47 PM
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Bugga.

Elinor is spot on.

That steel fan on the early V12 was so-so in operation, hence the swap to plastic with the later cars, 6 cyl or 12cyl.

The steel simply did not "pull" enough air at idle, in traffic, which is what you are experiencing.

What is the fan situation on the LH side of that cowling, as there should be a small electric "assist" fan in there?????.

This can be wired simply to the A/C compressor circuit, to be ON whenever the A/C is ON, and that will certainly help.

ALSO

The S3 cars had 2 small Condensor fans out the front, and were pusher fans, just like your pedestal fan, but I think????? that was the 6 cyl cars, its been a looooong time.

Air flow over the radiator is your issue, and that engine fan NOT rotating basically at idle rotational speed when HOT is wrong, and that, I reckon is the whats wrong here.

What brand of hydraulic clutch did you install???, it may be a dud,. Not simple to replace for sure.

Another test, just because:

Get a hot air gun, hair dryer if that's all that is available, and with the engine OFF,reach in and FEEL the rotational drag of the hub, probably none, then heat that alloy section of the fan hub, and then "FEEL" the drag on the fan blades once heated. It should "drag" heavy when heated, and if it does not, the hub is a dud.

I will keep thinking.
 
  #36  
Old 07-04-2019, 09:07 AM
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Thinking some more on this.

You have replaced the radiator with an Ally unit, so I suspect "thinner" than the OE monster that was fitted.

The original fan shroud was mounted on brackets on the top support panel, and the lower cross beam, so it was at a "SET" position related to the monster radiator, core position as in thickness towards the engine.

The new radiator is thinner, I said that, and is possibly located further forward due to the thinness, in relation, than the original, sooooo, the shroud , when remounted on the OE brackets will NOT touch the radiator, as it did before, its looking for the THICKER radiator it was designed to serve, and that "gap" will be reeking havoc with airflow through the radiator. Move the shroud forward they say, NOPE, that will have the fan OUTSIDE the draw area of the shroud. All you can do is extend the shroud outer edges, and the vertical divider, to meet the core, where selas can be added. The shroud MUST fully enclose the core, and be sealed as best as possible so ALL fan air is draawn through the core, and NOT from around the sides.

ALSO,

The original shroud was split vertically, and the centre vertical vane also had a seal where it touched the OE radiator. This was to prevent the fan drawing air from the electric fan shrouded area, as it would be easier to draw from there instead of thru that core.

AND

There were rubber "flaps" on that shroud, below the fan opening, and they are designed to be "sucked" shut at low road speed, again FORCING the fan to draw thru the core. These flaps were forced open by the forward movement of the car, as the "ram air" became greater than the fans drawn air. If these flaps are NOT closing at idle, as they do get HARD with age, then the fan WILL draw engine bay HOT air thru their slots, and NOT thru the radiator.
 
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  #37  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Grant Francis View Post
Thinking some more on this.

You have replaced the radiator with an Ally unit, so I suspect "thinner" than the OE monster that was fitted.

The original fan shroud was mounted on brackets on the top support panel, and the lower cross beam, so it was at a "SET" position related to the monster radiator, core position as in thickness towards the engine.

The new radiator is thinner, I said that, and is possibly located further forward due to the thinness, in relation, than the original, sooooo, the shroud , when remounted on the OE brackets will NOT touch the radiator, as it did before, its looking for the THICKER radiator it was designed to serve, and that "gap" will be reeking havoc with airflow through the radiator. Move the shroud forward they say, NOPE, that will have the fan OUTSIDE the draw area of the shroud. All you can do is extend the shroud outer edges, and the vertical divider, to meet the core, where selas can be added. The shroud MUST fully enclose the core, and be sealed as best as possible so ALL fan air is draawn through the core, and NOT from around the sides.

ALSO,

The original shroud was split vertically, and the centre vertical vane also had a seal where it touched the OE radiator. This was to prevent the fan drawing air from the electric fan shrouded area, as it would be easier to draw from there instead of thru that core.

AND

There were rubber "flaps" on that shroud, below the fan opening, and they are designed to be "sucked" shut at low road speed, again FORCING the fan to draw thru the core. These flaps were forced open by the forward movement of the car, as the "ram air" became greater than the fans drawn air. If these flaps are NOT closing at idle, as they do get HARD with age, then the fan WILL draw engine bay HOT air thru their slots, and NOT thru the radiator.




Thank you for your reply.

I bought two fan clutchs. The first is the Jaguar OE new product, and the second is the aftermarket new product purchased from SNG Barratt. When I heated the first oe fan clutch with hot gun, I didn't feel it getting heavy. So I bought a second fan-clutch, which, too, didn't make much difference.
When the engine is hot and the fan is heavy, the fan should turn quickly and grow louder, but they didnt.

I was thinking of converting a preHE fan into a HE fan, then, I found an interesting article.

http://www.efsowell.us/ed/jag/coolin...anRetrofit.pdf

Wouldn't the problem be solved by switching to his fan?
I'd like to hear your opinion.





 
  #38  
Old 07-04-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
If you spend a lot of time idling in traffic, then you might have reason to be concerned.
Out on the open road engine temp Always falls due to more air flow across the rad, just like when you put the fan in front.
(';')

I spend a lot of time of idling because of traffic jams.
So I need to solve this problem.
Thank you.


 
  #39  
Old 07-04-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mmac867 View Post
Thank you for your reply.

I bought two fan clutchs. The first is the Jaguar OE new product, and the second is the aftermarket new product purchased from SNG Barratt. When I heated the first oe fan clutch with hot gun, I didn't feel it getting heavy. So I bought a second fan-clutch, which, too, didn't make much difference.
When the engine is hot and the fan is heavy, the fan should turn quickly and grow louder, but they didnt.

I was thinking of converting a preHE fan into a HE fan, then, I found an interesting article.

http://www.efsowell.us/ed/jag/coolin...anRetrofit.pdf

Wouldn't the problem be solved by switching to his fan?
I'd like to hear your opinion.

The clutch with the large central bolt isn't a thermal clutch, as you have discovered. It is designed to be engaged (with some slippage) until xxx-RPM is reached....at which point it disengages.

The thermal clutch is meant to be be virtually disengaged until xxx-temperature is reached....at which point it should engage firmly.


A later fan with thermal clutch might help, yes.

Cheers
DD
 
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  #40  
Old 07-04-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mmac867 View Post
I spend a lot of time of idling because of traffic jams.
So I need to solve this problem.
Thank you.
Electric fans will out perform the factory Fan/Clutch at Idle.

The CatCooler Jaguar XJS V12 Very High Flow Twin Electric Cooling Fans System from V12 Performance
 

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