Have an ongoing desire, as I perform maintenance on my 77 XJ6C, to clean up, repaint area's in the engine bay, like my intake sheetmetal. When does that violate it's status as an "Unrestored" or "Survivor" vehicle ? Can I even install more updated, more reliable parts ?

 

Call it a "revival" vehicle.
Everyone seems to want to rush in and get involved in "restoration".
That can amount to too much money and time.
Forget the concourse crap and make the vehicle your own. I just repainted my intake air cleaner system on my S3 XJ6. It was pretty grungy.
i respect originality but if something better in e.g., brakes or electrics comes along then go for it..
Meanwhile keeping the car in good order as you appear to be doing is the way to go.
Cheers

 

I agree with Bill above.
If you put too much time and money into the car, you'll be afraid to drive it anywhere and it will become a Garage Queen, useful for nothing but collecting dust.

If you keep it tidy, safe and driveable, on the other hand, you won't be afraid to take it anywhere (within reason) and you'll have a Lot more fun doing it, spending your Hard Earned on gas rather than Chrome-Plated muffler bearings or something.

I've been both places and Much prefer DRIVING to polishing and dreaming.

Besides. There's just something about a Survivor that touches people right where they live and breathe.
I say, Clean it up so it looks decent and Drive the thing!!
(';')

 

If you ever wanted to enter it in a JCNA show in Preservation class, any repaint or restoration is considered a deduction. The standard all cars are judged to is the day it rolled off the assembly line, so anything added, changed, or modified from that (with certain exceptions) is a deduction.

If you never intend to show your car in that category though, it's academic.

 

^^

Can you let me know where to find some of those chrome plated muffler bearings?

 

 

"Survivor" and "Unrestored" have as many definitions as "Restored".....which we all know can mean just about anything.

For most people, I think, a survivor car has never been repainted, reupholstered, modified, engine changed, and so forth. It has been serviced and repaired to whatever extent required to keep it running and roadworthy. Consumable items will have been replaced but that's about it. It'll still look very good although inevitable evidence of age and wear-n-tear is happily tolerated. The less, the better, of course.

On the extreme end of survivor cars.....

I've had my hands on some survivor cars from the 60s-70s that are still on original brake hoses, mufflers, battery cables, fan belts, etc. Sometimes even tires. In those cases you don't touch anything unless you have to. If one spark plug wire fails you replace just that one spark plug wire. If the alternator fails, you repair the original alternator rather than replace it. Other than cleaning there is no attempt to improve any cosmetics. In fact, "patina" is carefully preserved. Such cars are highly coveted nowadays...doubly so if it was a special or rare model to begin with. Naturally they're unsuitable for actual road use.

I don't think anyone here is into that ^^^^ kind of survivor car.

And interesting (and sorta fun) aspect to survivor cars is adding age to new parts, when you have no choice but install new parts, so they don't stand out like or sore thumb and ruin the look.

Upgraded parts? Personally I don't think upgraded parts would be a huge sin on a survivor car unless they stand out like a sore thumb and ruin the effect. But opinions will vary on that....because opinions vary on what constitutes a survivor car to begin with!

Cheers
DD

 

Broadly, I agree.

But the concours thing can be a lot of fun and includes varying levels of dedication (and costs!). There are many different ways to enjoy the car hobby.

Cheers
DD

 

Hot damn! And all this time I thought muffler bearings were only to be found in the same auto parts aisle as blinker fluid and Lucas smoke refills!

 

 

Loved your comments, Doug. I've always strived for a consistent look which usually meant adding some patina to shiny new parts.

Jeff

 

The definition of survivor? Well my Mk2 has survived two atrocious restorations, a trip through a hedge into a field, decades of storage some of it in a building made of wet sponge. It's now surviving me cutting big pieces out of it ...

 

Most big money collectors are only concerned with originality in so far as that an educated car club member can't tell the difference by looking at it. You can generally do invisible modifications without negative impacts. I don't know about JCNA, but I have been through the NCRS judging process and they do drive the car and test absolutely everything to check that it not only looks like new, but drives like new as well. Judges may be able to discern some upgraded internal components during such a test drive, but what are the chances that your car would ever be subjected to such a rigorous judging process? I wouldn't worry so much about just mechanically upgraded components unless they are easily visible. As far as what CAN be seen, do whatever modifications you like just to the extent that they are easily reversible.

1) Keep ALL of the original parts that you remove, regardless of their condition because somebody may be able to refurbish them in the future.
2) Carefully pack and label all of the original parts so that somebody will be able to figure out what they are and where they go.
3) Write a reminder note that you have all of these extra parts, where they are stored and put that note with the vehicle title. That way when you sell it on or your kids are liquidating your estate many years from now, that those boxes of parts will be sure to go with the vehicle and not stay in the attic and be thrown away after the car is gone.
4) Don't cut, drill, weld or glue any of the original parts in the process of modifying the car. For instance instead of modifying an original bracket, make one from scratch. Or if you must, first try to find another part from a junk car that needs work anyway so that you don't feel so bad about hacking up a perfectly good original.
5) Don't paint parts that were not originally painted unless they are badly corroded and its the only way to make them look decent again. If you feel you must paint something that doesn't look all that bad, again, try to find another one from a junk car that needed to be painted in the first place. If you feel you must re-paint parts that were painted from the factory, take care to match the original color and surface texture/sheen. If you've just got to change the color of something, find a replacement part from a salvage first.
6) If you install a mechanically upgraded component that can be seen, try to make it look stock. For example in the Corvette world, you can't get original shocks (dampers in Jaguar lingo) so restorers will install Monroes or whatever and just paint them the original color grey. But maybe somebody will restore original shocks in the future so they'll keep the originals.

Bottom line, if you have that box of removed parts and the car can be put back to original with just a few weekends worth of work, then "no harm, no foul" as they say and your value will be preserved. It's when it starts costing thousands of dollars and/or it will be months or years to put the car back to "original configuration" that the value is impacted by modifications.

But as far as eliminating survivor "patina", I expect there will come a point where you might as well just go all out and restore the whole car. Where that point is, I'm not sure. For me, I tend to want to restore everything to perfection and just jump in head first while others are much more forgiving of "patina". To avoid just wasting all your money like me, maybe start going to your local Jaguar club shows/meets and get their feedback between each step. Find that average consensus point, before you've basically committed to going all the way.

 

In a JCNA concours the judges are not allowed to touch the car. The cars are not driven by judges. The rules say the car must be driven (by the entrant) on the field under it's own power, it can't be winched off a trailer into position.

 

This is correct, but in addition, the car must be shown to have its correct Jaguar engine (that is, the Jaguar engine type which came in the car from the factory, not a modern Jaguar V8 in a 1965 3.8S, fun as that might be…). The car is expected to be as it was or as close as possible to the way it was when it left the factory. Over-restoration can incur penalties, and at the very least does not improve the score.

 

Quote:

I don't know about JCNA, but I have been through the NCRS judging process and they

JCNA is certainly not so rigorous. In fact, the underbody isn't judged at all....which is a real boon to those who like concours competition and also like to drive their cars. A long time ago I was able to successfully compete in JCNA's Championship Class with my daily driver. One year I won regional first place in my class. This took a fair bit of effort....but it's doable.

The concours thing can be lots of fun. I've been away from it for a long time but perhaps one day will try it again.....if I get my hands on the right car.

Cheers
DD

 

30 or 40 years ago concours used to be a "fun" thing within our local Jaguar car club but it fell by the wayside as professional restorers and detailers got onto the act.
"Cheque book" restorations costing ludicrous amounts of money were being done which left the average car club member out in the cold. They just didn't bother to compete.
Consequently, on our local scene concours has disappeared.
It has been replaced by "display days" where everyone is welcome to display their car and a "people's choice" is awarded to one car.

 

Much better idea. I completely agree that the professional concours scene is crazy.

 

That's one of the reasons I like the JCNA concours, as the standard is the day the car was built. We all know the cars were far from perfect when they were built, and over restoration is just as much of a deduction as under restoration. It's an achievable standard on a reasonable budget.

Like Doug, I have also placed first in class with my daily driver in a JCNA concours and that was after a 1000km drive to get to the show!

 

That type of event is fun and obviously low key.

In fairness, the three different JCNA-affiliated clubs I belonged to always encouraged everyone to bring their car; "display only" entries were always welcomed. Plus, JCNA has a "Driven Class" which is a bit less demanding and easier to compete in.

My experiences doing the Concours thing with JCNA were overwhelmingly positive. Of course the personality of each affiliate club can vary but I really enjoyed the people and experiences. I recall very, very few overly-intense, overly-competitive people.

One upside is that regularly competing in a Concours program naturally compels you to keep your car in top condition.

Cheers
DD