XJ6 & XJ12 Series I, II & III 1968-1992

Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ

 
  #1  
Old 10-31-2014, 08:19 PM
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Default Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ

It's the end of October, 2 weeks after I said I would declare Winter and put Nix in dry dock. But the weather has been mostly good and I haven't been in the mood to lay her up for 3 or 4 months so I continued driving her.

However, it's going to rain for 2 days, the days are short and the nights are long, nothing is going on outside, so yesterday evening I declared it time. It's also time to share the fun!

I have an extensive list of things I want to do to Nix this Winter starting with replacing the driver floor. Soon after she came to live with us I discovered a break in a seam under the A-pillar, through which I could see black carpet from the outside; I poked around and it seemed mostly solid elsewhere. But the floor has been getting 'softer' through the year, especially where my feet rest; husband already ordered a replacement floor pan, and it's raining.

So last night after supper I arranged Nix in the center of her bay, pulled the ground strap so she's unconscious and started taking the carpet out of the driver floor. It was a worse job than I had imagined.

The floor was flaky as some of you will have guessed, and quite a mess. I have seen worse examples on these forums but that's small comfort when one is looking at one's own disaster.

I knew there were several layers of material, I could see 3 of them. Under the top layer of black carpet which was only lying on the tan, there were 2 more layers of tan carpet glued together but they came apart relatively easily.

The Previous Owner and his minions had slathered about a gallon of contact cement (Yellow Death, aka Gorilla Snot) over the existing rusty floor to secure the padding, which consisted of another 3 layers of stuff that looked like cheap outdoor carpet; 6 layers total! No wonder she's so quiet.

All that actually made a pretty good make-shift floor but the rust had continued to grow under that padding just like fungus until there's almost nothing left. I don't think I would have made it through another Summer without sticking my foot through the floor somewhere or the gas pedal coming loose.

By 9pm I had the front floor stripped to bare rust.

Today I removed the driver seat. What a Chore that was!! Cross-head screws have been replaced by 1/4-20 bolts, the heads of which are jammed into the slider rails, impossible to get a socket on, nuts jammed into such confined spaces they must be loosened one flat at a time! I spent 4 hours, but Finally got the seat out of the car. There are going to be some modifications when that goes back in! That was Ridiculous!

The new floor pan comes with captive nuts for the accelerator pedal already installed but not the bracket. I thought it would be a good idea to get the bracket off but I got to giggling so hard I could hardly work! The floor around the mounting bracket was flaky and weak. I stuck my screw driver through while trying to clean out the depression around a bolt so I could get a socket on it! It was so weak I made holes around about half that mount with my screwdriver! Then tin snips were sufficient for most of the rest, bending the remaining bit back and forth like a tin can lid until the whole thing came out and left a Giant hole in the floor!

Getting the bracket off the shard of floor was quite a lot of fun! First I tried sockets; Fat Chance! They simply took the corners off. Nuts and bolts all required vise grips and there's nothing left of any of them, but the holes are now clear and the bracket is ready for cleaning, rust proofing, painting and re-installation on the new pan.

Inspection reveals the short pan will indeed be sufficient, just as I thought it would. The floor is sound at the seat mount and the back floor is Perfect. I was Very pleased about that.

I haven't got the carpet off the tunnel yet, nor do I have the padding off the bulkhead, both of which will be necessary for any welding, which is a way down the line. The pan has to arrive first. Tomorrow is another rainy day and I'll start the bulkhead and tunnel then.

In the meantime, below are some pictures for your entertainment, beginning with the right floor as it should look.
 
Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-rightcarpet-asitshouldbe.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-leftrustyfloor1.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-rustymat.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-sounddeadening.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-sounddeadening-2.jpg  

Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-layerscarpet.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-ventilation.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-tinsnipsfloor.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-fromunderneath.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-savedbracket.jpg  

Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-brackethole.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-leftfrontseatbolt.jpg  
  #2  
Old 11-01-2014, 09:03 AM
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When its time to reinstall teh seat i would go with what they are using now, a torx bolt, makes life so simple, replaced my seats in 15 mins!!!

When i say now i mean 1983 when my car was made!
 
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2014, 09:33 AM
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LnrB:


That is good work. I like the tin snips you are using, especialy the angle. My compnd snips are pretty much straight. I've some real old timers. Just like giant scissors. But, with room to cut the do well. Not much good where you are cutting.


Big question? Where did all the water come from to do all that?? Leaking windscreen channel? Fixed or a gotta fix?


And, how are you going to reattach the new metal? MIG or TIG? Too many combustibles nearby for oxy. Even electric will need a lot of care and protection.


Gorilla Snot. Haven't heard or used it for a decade or more. originaly for rubber insulation attachment. But, there is a "new" product, an adhesive under the Gorilla banner. Might be the ticket.


Darren suggested Torx fasteners. Yeah. I was going to suggest Allen. The button head version would be just about right.


I've replaced a bunch of slot screws here and there on my car with hex or Allens.


But, on my antique, almost anway, Lauson on my Roto Hoe, I left the square heads and slots.


Think I've figured out the B&S issue. but, it is on back burner pending other stuff. Like the Jaguar's starter.


Ugh, gotta pay bills this AM!! Have recovered from TV marathon watching giant victory parade. Quite a feat and an equally amazing production.


Carl
 
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  #4  
Old 11-01-2014, 11:06 AM
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Thanks, Guys,

Darren, my factory manual says originally there were cross heads in those places, but I like your idea Torx better. In fact, since the car is faaaar from original condition anyway, I've been replacing all the slot head screws I can with cross heads. They seem to work better at an angle than Torx, which seem to need to have the tool Straight On. There are SO many places in this car where you just can't get a screwdriver straight on!

Carl,
Husband has a selection of tin snips, those are supposed to cut on a curve, I don't know if it's Left or Right. There was only a very short section to cut (basically it was only flaky rust), and as you know the space is Quite limited, so I grabbed those; Besides, they're RED!

When I was growing up weather strip adhesive was the glue of choice for almost any and all applications (short of welding) where they didn't Every want things to fall apart. It was easy to control the amount applied in case it might have to come apart later, but it it was NEVER supposed to come apart, USE LOTS!! But it had to be done correctly and it had to be positioned right the first time, because you probably didn't get another chance.

The first I remember was yellow and came in a red tube. If it sat unused for too long it separated into clear and cloudy components. Hence the name Gorilla Snot. I didn't know everyone called it that.

To attach the new floor pan; one of the neighbors is a welder by trade so I think I'll just let him do it, probably with a MIG. Certainly not with a torch. He's already looked at the situation and knows in his mind what it will take and is confident he can do the job. Of course we'll all have to wait for the new pan to arrive to know where to cut and how much lap there will be.

I will have ALL combustible items well out of the way before any welding starts. I've seen what happens when fuzzy carpet catches fire.

See the attached picture of how the water got into the car. This is not a new leak! I noticed it soon after we got the car. No wonder the Previous Owner was adamant about not driving it in the rain and keeping it in the garage.

At some time in the distant past someone tried to seal it up with silicone and did a poor job of it. There is a void between the rubber and the body about 8 or 9 inches total length, extending around that curve. I have no plans to ever address that as it would require removal of the windshield. I simply don't drive the car in the rain, or even if there's a threat of rain. I get a lot of razzing from some people but they're the very ones who drool over the overall condition of a 40 year old car.

It's still rainy today so I'm off to remove the padding from the bulkhead and the carpet from the tunnel.
(';')
 
Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-leak.jpg  
  #5  
Old 11-01-2014, 10:43 PM
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The floors are about the last panels I need to source for my coupe.

Generally the plates under the pedals are rusted as well (at least at the bottom). Might be worth ordering new panels for that as well or being prepared to fabricate new sections.

Can't quite tell form your pics, have you removed the whole floor i.e. front and back? The replacement panel is normally the whole length.

For rust protection I've taken to starting with two part epoxy primer directly onto the metal. It's normally self etching, sticks to bare metal like you know what and is waterproof.
 
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2014, 08:42 AM
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Default Great time to add sound insulation

I covered the floors front to rear in the '72 XJ and put it inside the doors... made a huge difference. After cleaning the floors, I undercoated them before
putting on the B-Quiet stick on insulation.


I would confirm your heater matrix is not the cause of the leaking/rust .. it is not a fun job but it would easier now that the center console is out.


It is at the upholstery shop for new carpets, door panels and sun roof type headliner (American Sun Roof aftermarket with metal sliding panel) now
and they will use the remaining insulation under the headliner.


Just received the two boxes last week for my '71 XJ... will do the same to it as it helps you hear music and talk at normal volume.
 
Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-undercoat-drivers-side.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-rear-seats-done.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-sound-insulation-done.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-insulation-rf-door.jpg  
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2014, 08:59 AM
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Keep up the good work Elinor, but do be careful not to ruin those lovely red nails.
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:51 AM
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Thanks, Guys,
Thank you, Anjum,
I took yesterday off so I didn't get the mat off the bulkhead. But when I pulled it up to take a peek, it does indeed look grim. The replacement pan is *supposed* to lap sufficiently to cover the area under the pedals, but to know for sure I'll have to wait for it to arrive. I was thinking about epoxy primer, your suggestion just pushed me over the edge. While it's all clean and pristine I think I'll do just that.

Husband found half length floor pans somewhere that are *supposed* to have enough material to easily lap the most commonly ruined areas. We'll see when it arrives.

We're not strangers to fabrication if need be, and I'm sure our neighborly welder can make almost anything we need, as that's actually his work.

Thank you, Roger, and thank you for the pictures.
I *Really* don't want to take the doors apart this Winter! I already have SO many things to do, some of them critical, and I have already spent SO much money on parts! And I *KNOW* I don't want to take the headliner out until it's Absolutely Positively necessary and can't be avoided!! We have been able to hold normal conversations all along, but while I have front apart maybe I'll put the deadening in that at the time of reconstruction.

Checking the matrix is a Very good idea, I'll put that on my list. But I've had a heater core fail before and I *KNOW* that smell! I'm pretty sure it's not the culprit, but while I'm working on the tunnel would still be a good time to check it out.

Thank you, Jimbo,
There's no need to worry about my nails. That's a L'Oreal color, #470 called, "Caught Red Handed." It's been my signature color since I discovered it in 2009. It's now discontinued but I have a stash of 4 bottles in the drawer, so it will be several Years before I need to choose another color.

Besides. I work in gloves (work gloves or blue disposable gloves) except for photo ops.
(';')
 

Last edited by LnrB; 11-02-2014 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:40 AM
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I found the matrix was the culprit in my 85 ford pickup. I turned on the defrost one chilly morning. Sticky stuff all over the inside. Sniff test. Glycol, oh yeah.


My dear late wifey loved fingernail polish, especialy the brighter reds. Some still around here that escaped daughter visits!! I've used it to mark stuff here and there.


It is a temporary fix for a cracked distributor cap.


My hide isn't as tough as it once was, so I use gloves more and more. Never been able to do much with the latex variety. One set for the garage and one set for the yard, each a different type.


Oh, and welder's gauntlets for pruning stuff with thorns.


When it warms a tad next week, I have a starter to install in the Jaguar. Woeee, I saw a You tube video of a guy installing one in his similarly powered Caprice wagon. Wow, in his almost snow covered driveway...


Uh,uh, I do much better in the heat than in the cold....


Carl
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:39 AM
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Default Could also be clogged evaporator drain lines?

Be sure to run a coat hanger up the drain hoses from the bottom... when they are clogged the water will try to find a way out of other places...
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Mabry View Post
Be sure to run a coat hanger up the drain hoses from the bottom... when they are clogged the water will try to find a way out of other places...
EVAPORATOR DRAINS!!
Thank you, Roger, I hadn't thought of that!!

Now that you mention it, I never saw the 'normal' AC puddle under my car like was under all other AC equipped cars I've ever had, and while I noticed it, I didn't NOTICE it.

I'm not sure where they are but perhaps my Blue Book will tell me.

Now it's gonna bother me until I strip the other side and look!

Well, this IS a Jaguar after all. Every single other thing I have touched on this car to repair, adjust, replace or clean has turned out to be about 4 times the work and expense I originally thought it should be.

Husband isn't gonna like it if he has to order a floor pan for the other side.
(';')
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:09 PM
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I went out and ripped up the carpet on the right side, and discovered flaky rust! Bummer.

It's not as bad, and the metal isn't as weak as the left side, and I think I can clean it up and put Corrosion Block metal preservative on it and it will be OK. It's solid, I couldn't poke my probe through any of the most suspect places so I live in hope as I didn't find steel lace.

I bought 4 cans of Corrosion Block a year ago soon after I got the car just in case, knowing the car is nearly 40 years old, and also knowing we weren't told everything. It's worked well on some other small areas I can't fix right now, so I'll try it on this. It's supposed to actually strengthen rusty metal (to a point), but of course won't be as good as a new floor.

The worst that can possibly happen is I have to replace that floor pan too, but that's not critical as under the driver's feet. When I find how the water is getting in there and stop it there should be no more further deterioration.

Thank you Very much for that heads-up, Roger! I would never have thought of it without your suggestion.
(';')
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:21 PM
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What's corrosion block? Some sort of rust converter?
I haven't much faith in those sort of products, if you scrape the black residue off there is still rust underneath. A better way would be to use Bilt hambers de-oxit or citric acid to remove the rust, then paint with epoxy primer.
I've been experimenting with citric acid recently and it seems to remove the rust. Works best warmed, and left on for a while. Could mix up enough to fill the floor pan and let it sit, having blocked up the holes first..
 
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Old 11-02-2014, 09:25 PM
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Corrosion Block: Lear Chemical Research Corporation

It's not really a rust converter so much as a corrosion blocker developed for marine applications. I've checked places I treated over a year ago and they're still oily with no sign of growing rust. I also treat electrical connections with it. Of the many hinky ones when the car came to live with me, not one has failed since I cleaned and treated them all.

I'm sure it has limitations and I certainly wouldn't expect it to protect metal that's constantly wet, but it seams to work on my truck and it stopped my other car's floor from rusting out. Neither of those were in as bad a condition as Nix is, especially her left floor, but I can only do so much at this time.

It may prove to be only a Band-Aid solution that I need to deal with later but I already have SO many things to do this Winter and everything needs to be finished by SMOG time April 1, 2015.

I do plan to thoroughly clean the right floor before treating, and I might even find some of that citric acid compound you mention. First though I must find where the water came from. It's all worthless if I don't deal with the root cause.
(';')
 
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Old 11-03-2014, 09:52 PM
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Default Bummer!! More Rust!

This evening I ripped out more of Nix's interior. The right seat was installed with large cross head bolts and I had it out of the car and into the living room in 10 minutes! Both seats are going back in with those!

I completely ripped the carpet and padding out of the right floor to see the extent of the damage. Rust is more widespread than on the other side but the floor itself is more solid. It's getting replace anyway as it's so early in the Winter and I've made good progress today on other things.

I found more stupid reinstallation tricks. The console has to come out to get the carpet off the tunnel for welding, but it wasn't tied down like it was supposed to have been. Screws were hidden under panels that were then glued in place leaving no hint where the screws were hiding. I only knew because I tore apart the junker last year, so I Knew the screws Had to be there!

Also, when the last guy put it back together he missed lots of screws. There were lots of empty holes (that won't happen again) and some screws were crooked in their holes and the heads boogered. It was a Lot of fun getting those out without breaking the plastic AC duct.

I stopped this evening with the switches. I need to be fresh and alert before I even think of tackling that mess. I did find the compressor wire though! It's easy to get to so I can splice into it and connect it to the window cutoff switch, which will Never be used!

I have attached several pictures including a couple to demonstrate why liquids will Never again be allowed in this car! At least twice someone spilled full sugary soft drinks between the front seat and the console. Both sides of the console, the seats and the carpets below are a Mess! I took the left rear carpet out and ran the hose over it as the sticky brown stuff had pooled in it. As soon as I get the carpet off the tunnel both sides of that are getting a good cleaning too!

I probably can't get back to this for a couple days as it's full blown Leaf Season. The city started picking up piles of leaves left in the street today. We all like that about this time of year because if we hurry we can get almost all of our hedge prunings carried away with the leaves.
(';')
 
Attached Thumbnails Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-morerust.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-basketworms.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-whynodrinks.jpg   Yet Another Floor Pan Adventure FAQ-cokedrips.jpg  
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
It's not as bad, and the metal isn't as weak as the left side, and I think I can clean it up and put Corrosion Block metal preservative on it and it will be OK.
On an old Datsun 510, in reality only 4 years old but extensively thrashed in winter rallying,
I fixed the floor by sandwiching the sheetmetal in fiberglass cloth and polyester epoxy. This
included building up the sandwich on the sides up the interior sidewalls by about three
inches to form a waterproof liner. Also drilled a couple of drain holes in the low spots making
sure that they were in spots where there was no metal to expose.

It did the job.

My theory was that rust requires oxygen. Isolate the sheetmetal from oxygen and
the rust cannot progress. In addition, the fiberglass reinforced epoxy added to
the structural stiffness.

For the person who asked, the tin snips are known as aviation snips and can be had
in straight, left and right cuts.
 
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:19 PM
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Thank you, Plums,
As I understand epoxy resins the metal must be completely clean and rust free or they won't stick. I'm not sure it's possible to get this floor that clean. I know the underside won't ever be that clean as the PO slathered it with undercoat sometime in the past 30 years.

I'll give fiberglass some thought though.
(';')
 
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:33 AM
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On that particular job, I wirebrushed most of the rust off and stabilised it with naval jelly.

That's the stuff that turns rust into iron phosphate.

If you've played with fiberglass epoxy you'll know that it sticks to just about
any hard surface other than plastic.

The key is to isolate the sheetmetal. If epoxy comes off, it is because the sheetmetal
has rusted further and the epoxy was adhering to that particular bit of metal that
turned into rust. That was the reason for spreading the epoxy on the vertical parts.
Doing so avoids the next snow melt creeping under the edge and undoing all the
work. All the melted snow sits in a waterproof fiberglass bucket until it drains
through the drain holes.

Anyways, it's like safety in numbers. This is not epoxying a fastener where a small
bit of epoxy has to take a big load but rather a lot of epoxy subjected to little load.
 
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Old 11-04-2014, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LnrB View Post
I simply don't drive the car in the rain, or even if there's a threat of rain.
(';')
Originally Posted by jimbov8 View Post
Keep up the good work Elinor, but do be careful not to ruin those lovely red nails.

Should it be "Lady Fair Weather" rather than LnrB, good work so far.
 
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Old 11-04-2014, 09:23 PM
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Thank you, Plums!
Naval Jelly! I was trying to remember the name of that magic potion!
The more I read about your solution the more I like it! I haven't been high on resin fumes in Years! LOL

Thank you, Clarke, "Lady Fair Weather." That's cute. But that would mean I have to change all my accounts from LnrB! Do you have Any idea what a Royal Pain that would be? I suppose I could shorten it to LFW but that just doesn't flow off the tongue.

I've always been up front about my car being a Fair Weather Flyer. I've also been forthcoming about why; all the window rubber is hard and pulled away from both glass and body, results of which you see in this very thread. I gave my word to the Seller I wouldn't drive it in the rain and I intend to keep my word, even though we've learned his word is worth nothing.

As for my nails, I've always worn gloves when working as I stated above. Gloves are perishable items in my world (along with work shoes). I go through the fingers, not the ends where my nails are but through the grippy part.

My current favorite gloves are Firm Grip from Home Depot -- IF I get to the local store before they sell out all the size SMALL.
Firm Grip Small General Purpose Work Gloves-2001S at The Home Depot
(';')
 

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