I was planning on the LC2 but I'll investigate the AEM, thanks for the tip

 

Yes it is. Although the Chrysler coils work fine with MS, a friend of mine used those (on his Ford engine!) They are just coils, like any plain ignition coil. That's actually why I didn't use the GM coils, it was easier to use a coil without any electronics in it. Common in any wrecker near me too.

 

This is the one I used: Digital Wideband UEGO AFR Gauge | AEM

A friend and I have done 3 MS conversions between us, and at first we used the LC-1/2 gauges. Perhaps the best way to describe them was "emotional". Neither of us could get a reading we trusted for very long out of them. The AEM's in comparison are rock solid. Have a lead to interface with MS nicely too.

 

The EDIS coils are smart and have the VR sensor connected directly to the EDIS coil pack, MS then adjusts the timing with the SAW signal. So to run a V12 you need the MS to output 2 SAW signals, I do not have enough outputs to do this. Philip Lochner in Sth Africa did this and used a delay unit to delay the single SAW to the 2nd EDIS units.

 

i use an AEM wideband AFR gage on a Mazda Turbo rotary, seems to work properly, and on hi/boost i run AF rich , to many blowups , so i'm leary!

Microtech ecu Australia, hi boost goes to secondary set of injectors!

talk about a bitch tuning, switch over from primary inj. to secondary set, and get it to run smoothly .

1.3L engine 420 W hp on US 93 oct. 490 whp, water meth, 104 AV gas, 22psi manifold pressure! in a light weight car 2700lbs, fairly quick tho.
but i'm gettin old for that stuff.

anyway my stuff kinda old tech now, but reviews say AEM is good stuff all of products.

but nothing wrong with MS products also!

time will tell, and lot of dyno time, NA engine tune in fairly easy, add boost and everything changes, the more manifold Pr increases the tighter the tune has to be!

have fun Warron we are following your project

, seems most guys here are not interested in performance engines, they think a cold air intake and loud exhaust is hiperformance!

 

warron you do know your stuff when it comes to electronics! wow.

 

Not on the MS2 I have! The VR sensor goes to the EDIS module, as does the connections to the coilpack(s) The module does all the current control calculations to the coilpack, not the coilpack itself. The Ford EDIS module can fire any coil or coilpack, doesn't have to be a Ford coil, it just has to be a plain coil with no further electronics in it.

PIP goes from the module to the MS, and SAW goes from MS back to the module to give it timing instructions. SAW doesn't go from MS to the coil directly.

Phillip used the delay because there doesn't exist a 12 cylinder module. He could have run 2-6 cylinder systems, one for each bank, but that would have needed a second VR sensor.

If you look on the wiring diagram, everything feeds into the EDIS module: EDIS Ignition Control

The coil does not connect directly to MS, nor does the VR sensor. Unlike the other sensors like coolant temp, throttle position etc. which do connect directly to the MS board. The MS board can't handle the current of a coil, that's why the EDIS module has a separate 20A power supply.

GM did things a bit differently, there was some smarts in the coil, and some in an ignition module. Ford choose to put all the smarts in the EDIS module, and none in the coil.

 

Sorry I wrote EDIS coil I meant EDIS module.

I understand that the EDIS module is separate from the coil pack. If I use the Ford coils I still need another enclosure to house the IGBT's. The GM module I can house the IGBt's in the base. For me it also came down to availability.

EDIS is not easily implemented on the V12 as I need 2 VR sensors 2 EDIS6 units and 2 PIP inputs to the MS2 and 2 SAW outputs one to each EDIS unit, not enough I/O on the MS2 to do this. The way Phil did it with 1 PIP and SAW and using a delay, leaves the timing control on the B bank at the mercy of the delay unit. I was not comfortable with this approach.

The way I am doing it, my MS2 will control the coil IGBT's directly and has 6 ignition outputs. The IGBT's to drive the coils will be in the DIS unit in the engine bay and not in the MS2 case in the boot, this way I do not have high ignition current (at up to 30kHz 6000rpm for each of the 6 ignition outputs) traveling in the wiring loom, as this could cause all sorts of interference with other sensors.

 

Can the MS2 only support 6 cylinders? If so, would two stand alone systems be a better choice? Just asking

 

The MS2 will not run 12 cylinder in sequential but will run a V12 using wasted spark. Used by Ford GM and many other OEM's.

What happens is a single coil has 2 outputs 1 to each spark plug, these must be connected to 2 cylinders that are at TDC at the same time, 1 on the compression stroke and 1 on the exhaust stroke. Hence my MS2 with 6 ignition outputs 1 output for 2 cylinders.

 

Ah, okay. That makes sense. So it triggers a spark on two cylinders at once...

 

MS can support many systems, you could keep the distributor for example. If using the Ford EDIS system, it needs a Ford module and those are configured for the number of cylinders. Ford only built them in 4, 6, 8 and 10 cylinder versions.

EDIS is a "wasted spark" system, so it triggers on the top of each stroke, no matter if it's compression or exhaust. That way it's only needs crankshaft synchronization, not camshaft as well. In practice, Ford usually used a coilpack with 3 coils, for example on a 6 cylinder car. Cylinders 3&4, 1&5, and 2&6 on a Jag XK engine are connected to the same coilpack and fire at the same time, as they are complementary cylinders. 1 can be on the power stroke when 6 is on exhaust for example.

It saves coils, and saves needing camshaft synchronization at the cost of firing the plugs twice as often. With modern plugs that's not a disadvantage any more, and the firing voltage and spark size is much less on the exhaust stroke.

 

Warren: I'll be curious to see how it all turns out! I know implementing it in a V12 is more of a challenge. I assume you're using MS for fuel control as well?

 

Yes MS for fuel and spark.

With the changes made to the MS2 in recent years running a V12 is now a lot easier than it was a few years ago. The MS2 was modified to run a 6 cylinder in sequential so with this you can now fire 6 coils to run a V12 in wasted spark.

I have mounted the MS2 in an old 6CU case. I am going to pop it in the car as is and get it running fuel only on the stock setup, I will use the Marelli tach to the MS initially and use the wiring to the resistor pack to drive the injectors initially as I have not set the MS up with flyback for PWM of the low R injectors. My new X Type injectors are 14.5ohms.

Then I'll rip out the engine harness and custom make a new one with wiring for the new coil packs. The coil packs will use the unused injector ON wiring through the car.

The new harness will have the EV6 connectors and I'll install the new X Type injectors and re-tune. Then convert it to coil packs. This way I should always have a running car.

 

That's a similar strategy to what I did to mine. Ignition first, tune the ignition, and then move on to fuel. I hadn't thought of using the 6 cylinder sequential to turn it into 12 cylinder wasted spark, that's clever!

 

Playing with rod

 

That looks like about 100g off the rod. What are you planning?

 

Yes, approx 90g. while the training.
I like your project. I'm in the process too. But not 6.7 liters. I will get 6.12.
Pistons is 91mm.

 

What ECU are going to run?

 

Here are my heads marked up for a slight chamber re-shape.

I need to remove about 8cc (maybe more depending on what the piston volume ends up after 0.040" is taken off the top) to get CR down to 11:1. The thin black line is the geometric shrouding envelope. And the areas coloured black is where I plan to remove material.

My plan is to de-shroud the valves and spark plug, tidy up the plug thread and remove sharp edges, then CC the chamber and see how much more metal I need to remove before I do the other 11.

I'll start on the intake valve as the shrouding is far worse than the exhaust valve. There will not be a lot of material removed from around the exhaust valve unless I need to low CR. I am not going to lay back the chamber wall at the plug just remove the hump between the intake and exhaust.

I am interested in feedback from those experienced engine builders (Ron) on my plan.

Edited pic as I was not happy with the area designated to remove


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