Okay I'm wanting too start on the ford edis modification where do i start and how? Iknow i might have too get some kind of box for it too advance properly?

 

You will need a computer capable of controlling the EDIS module as well as a delay unit to delay the saw signal from the computer to the second EDIS module. 2 VR sensors mounted 60deg apart on a 36-1 reluctor wheel mounted to the front of the crankshaft.

A far easier way is to use a distributor and then control the advance electronically.

If you do want to go EDIS there is a gentleman in South Africa that has done it and can supply the delay unit. Here is a link to his website.

Home Page

I was going to go down this path, but have decided to keep my Marelli dissy and replace the fuel and ignition ECU's with a Delco. To run the dual EDIS you will need a Megasquirt so you may as well use it for both fuel and ignition.

I can buy a delco ECU for $30 a new wiring harness and I am ready to install. The MS/EDIS will set you back about $1000

 

hmmm what about delco? ill be looking for a turbo build this winter and spring but i need somethin that moniters spark nock

 

You can not use EDIS with a Delco ECU that I am aware of. You could use 2 GM DIS units and 2 Delco ECU's.

Next option is to use a Mega Squirt. I was looking at the spec for the new MS3 and this will run the V12 native in wasted spark, it has 8 logic level ignition outputs and 8 injector outputs. So it can run dual EDIS, DIS or use the MS ignition modules, these are reasonably priced, but are dumb modules.

Knock is a totally different issue and the Delco ECU with knock input WILL NOT suit the V12. Knock frequency is relative to bore size, so a starting point would be a knock filter off a 6 or 4 cylinder engine with the same 90mm bore as the V12. Then it would need to be tuned to the exact knock frequency that the V12 exhibits. Not an easy task as you will need to make the engine knock to tune the filter, possibly damaging the engine in the process.

 

warron you seem to be good at this electronic stuff!!

how would you go about adding a cold idle air valve to a standalone ECU setup, my SDS efi ecu has a temp adjustable for on or off, so i'm thinking a solenoid valve(not sure which one)
could work!

got any ideas? i need one, cause holding throttle when cold is tiring, guess i'm gettin older!

ron

 

I service/repair Military and Aviation electronics for a living now.

I do not know the SDS system but there are 2 types of IAC - stepper motor or PWM (Pulse Width Modulated, basically on/off). If the SDS system supports PWM it would be the easiest to implement. I think a lot of Fords use PWM IAC. But any 2 port 12volt valve would do the job, it only needs to have a port large enough to accomodate the air requirements and be robust enough to live in the engine bay.

Here is a good writeup from MS on IAC. I noticed after a quick scan it mentioned SDS in the PWM IAC not far from the bottom of the page. So I would assume your SDS system does support PMW IAC.

MegaSquirt-II Idle Air Control

 

I have just had a look at the SDS web site and they list a Fast Idle option for $105 but are a little light on detail. They do not say if that is just the valve or an upgrade to their system. But it would be a good place to start.

Other option is to add an old fassion choke cable and use a manual heater tap and asdjust warm up RPM manually, just a thought.

 

Warren:

Can you expound on the Delco approach you are contemplating?

I have been thinking along the EDIS line, ala Philip Lochner, but you mention this Delco approach, and its much more attractive cost figure.

I have driven Philip's '80 XJS, and he's done a magnificent job of the fitment and tuning of the EDIS+Megasquirt.

My interest would be to use either the Lucas or Marelli distributor, or preferably, a distributor-free approach (I like the room in the V).

Thanks,

Mike

 

To use the Declo there are a couple things you need to find out - mainly what Delco's are available where you live. I only basically what is available on the Australian market.

The Delco will not run the EDIS you would need to use the US DIS modules Australian DIS modules are different and will not work without using the multi trigger wheel setup.

To run the DIS on the V12 you would need to run dual Delcos and DIS modules with 2 VR sensors on the crank.

If you use a Marelli distributor you could use a single Delco. I have been looking at this now for a while to determine what would be the most cost effective solution. Here in Aus dual Delco's are cost me as much as going Mega Squirt MS2 so I have decided to go MS3 and keep my Marelli distributor, this will allow me to upgrade to multi coil without having to change the ECU.

If you have any questions I would be happy to answer. but its a bit hard to brain dump everything.

 

Warjon:

Sure, it's a problem to do a complete brain dump!

I guess what I am asking, is, do the Delco units compute the advance, and this is why you want to use the Marelli distributor, since this is designed specifically to be a static device (e.g., no mechanical or vacuum advance capability within the distributor by means of non-electronic mechanisms)?

I run hot and cold on this, because I run a Marelli setup, and while it had gotten beaten up in the various forums for its propensity for inducing fires when it fails, I find this ignition to be dead reliable and very very hot, in terms of its electrical energy. So, I am on the one hand, inclined to keep it, but on the other hand, I am really interested in an ignition and fuel delivery setup that can be tuned. Hence, my interest in the MS/EDIS.

The other thing I like about the EDIS setup is the possibility to clear the V altogether...THAT enables some interesting things in terms of intake manifold design (like, for instance, crossing the inlets over the V, to lengthen the runners, and also create more room for increased plenum volume, among others).

I keep working through the compromises of various approaches, and just was not aware of a Delco type of option.

Thanks,

M

 

Yes the Delco will control ignition timing. If you mate it with a DIS coil pack (GM's EDIS type module). I too have had the same thoughts on replacing the Marelli distributor with coil packs. This can be done with the Delco. 2 would be required to run each side of the V12 as I6's.

My current thinking is to retain the Marelli distributor coils and ignition modules and run them with either 1 Delco or an MS2. The Declo solution if I use a later ECU from a 2003 Commodore (which has flash memory) will be the most cost effective solution here in Australia. This does not allow me to easily upgrade to coil packs if I decide to go that way.

The Delco you will need to use the USA DIS coil packs, these are different from the coil packs used in the Australian market cars. The difference is in the trigger. The US DIS coil packs can use a 36-1 trigger wheel. The Aussis coil packs use 2 VR sensors and 2 trigger wheels, which would require 4 VR sensors to operate. I mentioned all this because I do not where in the world you are located.

I know what you mean. I think some Jag people have the same prejudiced against the Marelli as other have about the reliability of the V12, its totally incorrect. I believe ALL of the "Marelli issues" stem from lack of maintenance. I have NEVER had a problem with mine. If the system is maintained like ANY distributor system it will be reliable.

If you do decide to keep the Marelli you can re-use coils and ignition modules. With this setup you can use a single Delco, I am not so familliar with Delco setup as I have been more interested in the Mega Squirt. An MS2 is capable of running 2 coils and runs about $400US, setting up a Delco will cost about the same by the time you buy the interface cable ECU and everything else needed.

EDIS is just an intelligent ignition module it has the crank sensor connected directly to it and runs the ignition timing without ECU control at 10deg then when the engine is running the EDIS turns control over to the ECU, GM's DIS system works exactly the same.

If you want to upgrade to this in the future it might be worth spending the little extra on the MS3 (about $600US) this is capable of running the V12 in wasted spark with dumb modules or can run EDIS or DIS directly. Take a look at DIYAUTOTUNE.com there is a lot of components available here. There is also a lot of community support for the MS solution as it has been done many times.

 

So what kind of budget am i lookin at? 1200 running and tuned
Eventually I'm shooting for a twin turbo build lister body kit and the hood is being customized for better air flow through the engine bay

 

If you are in Australia this will not be enough if you are paying someone else to install and dyno tune it, anywhere else in the world I do not know, unless you do the tuning yourself.

 

i am thinking about a crank trigger setup(no dissy), but would it be how much better than my exsisting setup?

i'm running for past 16-18yrs(old tech) Crane XR700 box with optical trigger in dis. has been reliable and not much cost(at the time). and a SDS efi ECU, triggers fuel and ignition, fully adjustable.

none of the system was installed, i had to do it all, including tuning, took the best part of a year to get even close to what a V12 needs for a tuning map and still every so often have to readjuast maps!

so many things seem to alter maps, like temp.(of course) engine or ambient air and humidity, air density, or a real cold morning, hot temps seem the least fiddling!

im in process of a cold fast idle add on,at present.

lot to be said for a MAF system(mass air flow)!

 

pix of my programmer hand control,kool driving along, and adjusting fuel with an O2 sensor meter!

also pix of a friends V12 with the coil pacs in the V(no dissy), he uses an Electromotive density system with crank trigger sensors.

nice car 87 body with a 6.0L , and a 4L80E trans, 2.88 gears,LSD.

 

If your current setup has full load/TPS based ignition mapping controlled by the SDS I would say no, there would be little to no benefit. You will get slightly better spark from a distributor-less ignition system along with lower maintenance (less moving parts) and cleanup of the V.

I have decided to keep my Marelli dissy and modules, ditch the 2 ECU's and run everything with a Mega Squirt. This will allow me to upgrade later if the Marelli rotor becomes NLA.

Those coil packs on you friends XJS are GM DIS modules, there are at least 3 different versions of I know of.

MAF is easier to tune than a MAP based system. I know the MS3 supports MAF, I do not yet if it supports dual MAF needed for the V12. Because it is measuring the Mass of the intake it compensates for Altitude, Air temp, air density etc etc. This can be done with IAT and absolute MAP sensor.

 

i have seen a maf system that measured just one bank of a V12 and it ran very well, ECU just thought it was a 6cylinder, air flow would be the same on each bank,or close enough for our needs!

all this stuff is getting interesting if not complicated also!
thanks to some smart guys building standalone ECUs,, like M/S stuff!

 

The LSX guys here get rid of the MAF because it is a restriction and the GM MAF uses frequency (not voltage) and maxes out.

If the MAF is a restriction then flow after the MAF will not be the same on both banks.

What are using for the IAC? and are you going to control it from the SDS?

 

Yes my SDS will control an IAC, its on or off but i can live with that, when cold engine needs around 1200-1300rpm for a warmup period,adjustable temp from SDS will bring it back to around 850-900 for warm idle!

if cold idle is to slow, my hi-overlap cams aint got enough vacuum, stopping with brakes can sometimes get interesting!

as we speak, i'm in process of an electric vacuum pump and another cannister resevoir.

but all things are OK for normal driving, seems as tho these cars are never finished.

and i'm not going to MAF, i do like what i have
.
ron

 

I agree warron, but you may be refering to an all out hi-HP engine, you would be surprised at what can be done with todays ECUs.

also a pic of my center console knob, lean or richer, at just a touch of the knob, keeping an eye on O2 gage, it adjust 1% at a time, when you have % of your needs, you finalize the adjustment with the programmer buttons, push lock on!

couple pix of inside SDS ECU.