Forgot, it happens.

The pry bar rotation is to use the teeth of the ring gear, and from the LH side, blade in the teeth, and using the side of the opening as a leverage point, lever the teeth DOWN, which will rotate the engine the correct way.

 

Thanks I wasn't sure if that was the way as thought I might damage something buy will give it a go.

 

Yep I will ring him as two of you have reccomended him. My mechanic for my other cars is going to have a look for me tomorrow.. If no joy then a specialist is a good thing and good he is near.

​​​​​​
Yea maybe although I can clearly see its not engaged to the wheel.. Other than somehow stuck in gear or as you say oil gear then I'm stumped as well. I know how easy the crank is normally to turn as done it before.

 

Forgot to ask. If cant get it to move from there with bar in teeth. Does that mean anything in particular like proves it stuck in gear. Or does it just add to the mystery?

 

Alex
A few clarifications, assuming your car is an automatic:

1. It cannot get stuck in gear (in the sense that the engine will not turn) as the torque converter will always allow the engine to spin, even if the autobox is in park.
2. Verify that levering on the ring gear (looking from the REAR of the engine it must turn ant-CW) or using a long bar on the crank pulley nut (looking from the FRONT it must turn CW) cannot turn the engine.
3. If it can, remove the starter motor and either R&R it or change it
4. If it cannot, remove the starter motor, and try the turning again.
5. If, starter motor off, it will not turn, post again.

All these things you really need to do before consulting further. There are two starter motor fixings:

• the starter motor has to be undone from the gearbox side, and both fixings go through the gearbox casing
• the top fixing is a special 12 point 7/16ths AF headed bolt and, as Grant said, you absolutely MUST is a 12 point (ie double hex) socket on it or you will ruin the bolt head and that will be an engine out job to fix.
• the bottom fixing is a normal hex headed fixing 5/8th AF, 11/16ths or 3/4 from memory, anyway the same size as all the other gearbox to engine attachment fixings.
• in the first pic attached, you can see the starter easily, and the two fixing holes in the gearbox casing, as the 'box is removed. You do not have to remove the gearbox, just undo the two fixings from the gearbox side and joggle the starter forward; no need to do anything about the exhaust. You DO need to disconnect the battery though!
• On the RHS of the gearbox casing, on the bell housing part, about half way up (the 3 o' clock position) you will be able to feel a grooved indent in the smooth casing, this is the groove that leads you to the top 12 pointed 7/16ths starter motor fixing. Use this as a guide for your socket on its long extension to get firmly on the fixing. Do not turn it until you are 100% sure it is fully engaged on the fixing.

I hope this helps
showing the starter motor position

Socket and long lever on the crank pulley

 

OK thank you I shall try that although I am not sure if I have the 12 point socket Ill have to or get one. out of interest though if I can see the gear from the starter motor is off the main wheel (flywheel?) through the trans cover, how else would it stop it turning?

 

Alex
No idea; it is just that if it is not the starter, then it seems inevitable that it is something requiring major engine surgery = engine out. Therefore I would think it well worth being 100% sure about the starter!
Along shot, but also check all the belt-driven ancilliaries; slacken the belts a bit and make sure they are all turning.
Additionally, as the starter refuses to turn, that is some sort of clue that something is amiss there.
Although possible, a sudden complete seizure or an engine having been switched off after ticking over, is very unlikely.

 

Fair enough as you say worth a try as just spoke to Ray brown from Surrey jags and the figures are eye watering, I agree with him though that if the engine has to come out and it turns out that its nothing too bad. I might as well get the head gaskets done etc as it's done 90k. So a starter motor out is worth it! 😊
And yes tried the belts slacked off.

 

Alex
if it is an engine-out job, a second hand engine is by far the cheapest option.
Greg

 

the things we do for the love of JAGUARS??

 

I go along with the concensus that not very likely the basic engine is seized.
The starter could be the problem. Not sure how easy it is to see if the pinion is stuck in the ring gear when you take the lower flywheel cover off.
To help visualise it here is a photo of the starter with pinion in normal retracted position.
If hard to see maybe one of those small extending mirrors about 25mm diameter will get up there.
Also a photo to help see where the 2 starter bolts are. Unfortunately the only photo I have is of an aftermarket adaptor bell housing for a Supra 5 speed manual box.
For you the 12 point bolt will be the one to the left and slightly lower than the dowel hole at the top end of the starter.
Yoiu can get at it as mentioned with lots of extension bars, not sure if you need a swivel joint as well.
Often the best extension bars are ones with wobble ends so you can use them with maybe 3 or 4 degrees of "bend" when going over the top of the tranny.
Swivel joints can be tricky to get onto the bolt head, although you can always put sticky tape on them so they do not wander off at 90deg.
You might be lucky and be able to just loosen the starter bolts enough to free the pinion from the ring gear teeth without the starter falling down.

Last time I pulled a starter with the engine in the car was over 30 years ago.
I did not have enough extension bars and made a tool with a cut up 7/16 ring spanner and a piece of bar with a bolt head on the end of it.
There was trial and error to get the angles just right but it let me crack the 12 point easily.
Nowadays lots of cheap tools around, and I have about 20 bars in various lengths some with wobble ends.



Lucas starter

Starter bolts

LHS is 7/16 12 point bolt remover

 

Good news but not out of woods yet.

Well sort of relieved also embarised and annoyed with myself I'm a electrical and mechanical tech on trains so I should have been more careful.

My mechanic came round yesterday and I had already taken the fan out earlier and put a proper pry bar and socket on there after snapping a ring spanner trying to pull underneath.

He was just about to leave after agreeing it siezed when he gave it one last tug. If the garage had been larger he would have taken off as he flew back as it suddenly released!!

It turned freely but tightened when certain cam heads were not pushing down on rods. So then set about with an endoscope looking for issue and found one of the rods was stuck open when piston came up. So wouldn't allow it up. Hidden behind the shaft of the rod so couldn't see it looking down the manifold holes was a bolt caught in it.

I managed to get it out. I had taken off the manifolds originally over a month ago when I took the injectors off to get them cleaned and thought I would clean and spray the manifolds. Until I found golf ***** sit nicely in the holes I had originally tapped over them to stop anything going down there. As it was the back one I must of not done it properly. No idea where the bolt come from as didn't have any missing when put back together.

I have poured some brake fluid down on top of valve with it closed and it sits there for a while before going through I can see there is a slight nic on the side of the valve.

So next thing to do is a compression test next week to see if I have got away with it or not. I'm crossing fingers toes and anything else I can that it may be OK. I don't want to speak to soon though and say its OK.

Thank you to all that replied ill let you know how the compression turns out.

I can certainly say "you live and you learn"!

 

My goodness, hopefully you are (partly) relieved. At most you have some head job to be done, perhaps not even that.

 

Yes I am partly relieved, just won't be fully until know how the compression is which can't do until next week as starting shift tonight.

Im hoping it's not too bad that I can at least use it for this summer. I want to take the engine out at some point anyway as the engine bay is the only part that has not been restored and as the engine has done 90k it would be a good time to strip and do heads etc. But as we have been in lockdown for sooo long it would be nice to at least get it out on the road this year.

 

BUGGA.

That bolt is probably from someone else, and you never knew it was there.

The fact it holds fluid, as you say, I suggest, GOOD TO GO.

At 90K miles, BARELY run in, and that's fact.

All my Jags, 6 and 12 have done HUGE miles, untouched. The PreHE XJ12 is 654000kms, and still thundering, so dont go there unless you are sooooo bored you have nothing else to do, HAHAHA>

Do not be too hard on yourself, it can, and does, happen to all of us, IF we are honest.

 

Alex,

Even if it needs a head job that sounds like a good result, compared to the alternative!

I wonder if the piston has kissed that valve whether I'd want to replace the valve anyway in case the stem is even slightly distorted and the guide damaged?

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers

Paul

 

Duplicate

 

That's good to know as I am not that bored yet!!

Yea it did make me wonder, if you had read my introduction post you would know the terrible time I had with the person who was supposed to restore the bodywork originally. Always made me wonder if he would do something to the engine before I got it back just to be an even bigger a'hole.

But who knows, the things I want to do to him are bad enough as it is!! 🙄

​​​​​​Just have four days to wait until I can see how compression is now!

 

Good find. No worries about the valve and piston contact. The HE is NOT an interference engine, unlike the pre-HE. The compression will be fine if it holds brake fluid for a minute or two.

 

Now I am looking at the bolt in the photo attached I'm not even sure it's a bolt it's threaded but the end looks rounded like it's even a spark plug. It's been pumled and in two pieces

makes me wonder how long it's been in there and whether it was put down there by my wonderful supposed restorer!!

I have just ordered the slimmest flexible magnetic tool I could find 4mil diameter to get down the rest of the holes and check