But notice the price on that particular transaction.

He got it(the complete kit) by bartering the supply and install of an automatic
to convert the car back to auto from stick.

He also pointed out some tips on flywheel weight.

 

Yeah,the majority of us will never run across a deal like that.

Dick Maury worked at Coventry West at the time (I think he may be recently retired), and he is very active in JCNA, so he has a great network established for getting once-in-a-lifetime deals. He's also very skilled & knowledgeable, and, an all around good guy.

Even if he had paid full price, the Richmond unit would have been a far better choice than any Tremec.

 

If I'm not mistaken the Dodge Hellcat (707HP), Camaro Z28, Corvette ZR1, Shelby Mustang. All use Tremec transmission's. The big 3 probably know these cars will "never" see a power shift. Not to knock the Richmond, its a great transmission. Back 15 or so years ago Lou Fidanza of old GTJ in OH was selling off his Jaguar inventory. He was going to give me a "great deal" on the Richmond set-up. Seven thousand $ MINUS the Long shifter , Pedal box & throwout bearing set-up aluminum flywheel was extra $. Go figure. BTW where would someone go to buy the COMPLETE Richmond set-up for a XJ-S ? PRICE ? With all said do you think the Tremec TKO is to weak for the 325HP XJ-S ? Mine's bin in for 7yrs/20K miles & still going strong.
Lawrence

 

You're right. The OEMs go for the Tremec. That's because they can get lots of them cheap. Tremecs are fine OEM boxes, and, under normal conditions, they will give long and faithful service. But, how many Tremecs will you find in race cars, compared to Richmonds? It's kind of like saying that since people buy more Chevys than Ferraris, Chevy must be a better car. Tremecs are mass produced, to a price point. Richmond transmissions, like Ferraris, are engineered, and, built to a standard, without regard for unit price. They build transmissions with race and performance vehicles in mind.

What I see as probably the most glaring problem with the Tremec, and keep in mind that I'm talking about the 6-speed, is that the Tremec is a double overdrive transmission. Who the hell wants, or, needs two overdrives, and only four power gears??? Its a fuel economy feature, designed purely to help OEMs meet EPA standards. 6th gear is pretty much useless. If someone is buying a car with a manual transmission, or, converting a car to a manual, it stands to reason that they are doing so for the sake of better performance. Somehow Tremec thinks that having only four performance gears in a 6-speed transmission is plenty for anyone.

 

Haha, I agree about the double overdrive. I remember my '94 Miata. In 5th gear, at 80 mph, it was revving over 4000 RPM! Sort of the opposite situation.

 

Jeez, I feel for you if this is gonna cost >$7K. Wow. I picked my setup up from a guy who had bought one of the early Keisler kits as part of a group buy, and never installed it. I think I paid something like $3500.


It's not all that hard to install something like this for the backyard enthusiast mechanic.


On the transmission choice, though: if you have a 5.3 V12, you also have a 2.88 differential. A Richmond box can be spec'd (e.g., gear selection) that will work a bit better with this final drive. But the real deal is this: get the Richmond 6 speed, spec a 3.0 or so first gear, and a close ratio selection for the rest (except 6th- get as deep an overdrive as you can), and then, drop a 3.54 in the rear. THAT will be a horse of a completely different color. I run a wide ratio Tremec TKO against a 3.54, and this is a very different car from a) a stock TH400 and b) a manual with the 2.88 in back.


The only real way to contend with the double overdrive 6 speed tremec boxes is to go for a 3.73 or 4.11 final drive ratio. Otherwise, those last two gears (with a 2.88) will be REALLY long-legged, and you will find that you actually have a 4 speed in practice.


Definitely need the ECU adjustment, too, to make this tractable.


-M

 

Ah! I was trying to remember that name ever since this thread started -- Shafi Keisler. Wondering if he was still offering kits, but alas it appears it's been rough going since I looked at his kits:

Keisler Engineering Files for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy - Hot Rod Blog

 

Its good to hear from you on this, Mike.
I know that you've put a ton of research into this topic, because of the many conversations we had about it several years ago. I still have that spreadsheet you made, which illustrates the speed in gears/total ratio for various trans/diff combinations. Good stuff, and, many thanks.

 

Hi All, apologies for the slow response. Unfortunately I cant extol the virtues of the wonderful new dynamics yet as I picked my XJR-S up last Saturday which was icy and snowy, I also had to drive home on what I suspect are 15 year old tyres and are heavily cracked. So I took my time and didn't go over 70.... once. Clearly the clutch etc all need bedding, but I immediately like the feel of the XJS with a manual, you get the sense of being more in control. I'll update in a few weeks when I get the new tyres on!

 

OK, now I'm asking because I'm ignorant, and I'm hoping ignorance is curable.

Cost of a DrivenMan T56 kit on their website is $6K. That's all the pieces/parts needed. Other web searches show the trans alone as being about $3K, so the pieces/parts are about half the cost of the kit.

Another web search for a Richmond 6 speed shows a cost of $3.9K. So in theory the better transmission is about $1K more.

Question 1: Where do I get all the other parts needed, including instructions to make this worth considering? If you have a question with the DM kit, it seems that the answer is a phone call away. Where is that level of support with a Richmond? Until I can answer that question, I'm not sure the Richmond is worth sorting out in my garage. What was the line from that movie? "A man's got to know his limitations..."

Question 2 (and I really want to understand this one... because I'm not sure I "get" it):
Consider the following power curve. By the time I'm done with my (future) build, I will need to dyno to see what I have, but this is for discussion:



One advantage of this engine is a very flat torque curve. The horsepower curve matches it, which makes sense, because HP is a function of torque and RPM.

As I understand ratio selection (and I'm talking gears 1-4 here), you want a good rear end that will transfer the power (let's pick 3.54 as a good compromise), and you want to space the ratios to stay on the torque curve. Given the provided curve, wouldn't you want the shifts so that at around 5,500 rpm, when you shift, the engine goes to about 2,500 RPM? And then that flat torque curve takes over, and you stay where you need (obviating the need for a close ratio box)? Am I missing something?

And then of course, overdrive, for cruising. My "goal" is to have solid acceleration/power, but to also be able to loaf along at about 80MPH at a reasonably low (i.e. good MPG) RPM. My experience with my current car (not a Jag) tells me that yes, I can cruise at 130, but my gas mileage goes right down, where if I stay below 80, I can get around 28 MPG or so. Considering 80 is a good speed to make reasonable time without attracting the attention of the local Gendarmes, I think that's reasonable.

To be clear, 130 MPH was in Germany, and 80 is the local limit on the interstate.

Again, back the The DrivenMan info:

3.54 rear end, stock tire sizes.

2000 RPM with the stock auto box would be only 44 MPH.
5th Gear would give 55 MPH
6th Gear would give 71 MPH

That doesn't seem like a bad mix.

Of course the stock 2.88 rear end would give 54MPH , 67MPH in 5th gear and 87 in 6th, but you'd be giving up acceleration off the line.

Switching back to the 5 speed (which is recommended for the 5.3l engine), the 2.88 rear end gives you 79MPH at 2000 RPM, and 65 MPH with the 3.54. Not exactly where I want to be, but not bad. With the 3.54 rear end, 2500 RPM gives 80 MPH, where the auto with a 2.88 would be giving only 67. This seems like a reasonable compromise for pulling through the box off the interstate, say on a mountain road, and good mileage (and low noise) simply cruising. That also sounds like the design specs for a good GT car.

Am I completely missing something? I really want to understand.

 

Edelweiss
That graph is for the flat-head pre HE engine. Your signature does not say which model you have. I am not sure what the HE graph looks like, but on my HE (going by feel only and of course the autobox has a torque multiplying effect at the off) you get significant torque from 1500 rpm and can feel a real step-up in power from about 2300. Over 3000 substantially more again. So for me, if I had a manual box, I would not want to go from (say) 2000 rpm to 5000 every time before I changed gear, so I think it is more of a question about what happens if you set off at 1500 rpm and change up at 2500, is there is big "hole" in between the gears then? Someone who had actually done the swap on your exact model is the best guide.
Greg

 

Edelweiss:


The answers are 'yes' to all of this. That is, you will find someone who's done the conversion and will agree with one or more of your points, and others who will agree with those not covered by the first. The reason is the flat torque curve. This hides a lot of um, transgressions.


I don't think you'd like driving a trans that drops from 5500 to 2500 on a gear change, though.


You have to decide what you want, and gear accordingly. I personally found the wide ratio Tremec TKO (3.27 first, 0.68 5th) against the 2.88 way too tall. The OD gear gave fabulous mileage- I routinely saw figures of mid 20's miles per gallon on the trip computer, touching 30 on a regular basis, when I was being a docile driver. I also noticed that the wide ratio spacing made each shift noticeably taller as I accelerated.


Now that is all well and good, and livable because the V12's wide torque curve makes it tolerable. But it really seemed to me that all I really got was a 4 speed instead of the 3 speed in the autobox, and from a practical standpoint, more of a 3 speed anyway, because 4th is pretty tall, too. So I was less than enchanted with this.


Changing to a 3.54 made a nice difference- now I have 4 gears, and while the OD does not deliver the mileage, it does actually perform at freeway speeds (car will pull well in 5th where it would not before, from 60-70 mph speeds). But 1st is a bit on the short side, now, and with a more powerful engine, would probably become relatively useless, and I would likely change to starting out in 2nd. Again becoming effectively a 3 speed box for most driving.


The best advice I can give is this: if you are choosing a 5 speed, the Tremec wide ratio box is a good box in terms of its gearing, but put in a 3.31 rear gear. You will be glad you did. If you are choosing a 6 speed, then, pick a close ratio box and put in a 3.54 gear. You will be glad you did. If that OD at freeway speeds is important, look for a box that gives the 6th gear ratio you want, nice and deep. But keep those first 5 nicely separated. The bottom line: the 5.3 V12 XJS does best when a manual box is done in conjunction with a rear gear change. Without the rear gear change, you will find it neigh impossible to get an optimal experience. The only real solution would be to find a way to tailor the gearing of the box, for all gears. I don't know of too many for which that can be done, and at a reasonable cost. So, suck it up and make the rear gear part of the plan.


On cost: Really, the things you need are these: trans, bell, flywheel, prop shaft, pedal box. The rest are bits and pieces (trans mount, clutch/pressure plate, misc. hardware bits). You can find places for the box (new or used), the bell and the flywheel. Many places to get the prop shaft made. You can find pedal boxes, too, or mod your own. So this can be done more cheaply, but I would be surprised if you could pull it off for much less than $3500 at the end of the day, unless you happen into a very good deal on the box or bell or whatever.


There are details to mind, though, and these include ensuring that the box+bell engage the crank properly, and that you fit the proper bearing. But these are not show stoppers- they are the kinds of details that a kit provider has solved for you (for the most part, anyway!).


-M

 

Edelweiss
If you chose a Tremec 6sp you get 2 OD's. & do some trans tunnel work. If you chose a Richmond trans you must buy a shifter, Most Richmond's use a Long, I don't know the price but aren't cheap. You will also cut up the tunnel, I don't know how this can not affect the console. IMOP the TKO 5sp will take anything the 5.3 can dish out. You don't need to cut up the tunnel, 2 OD's or 6sp's with Long Shifter's for everyday use. Sixty MPH is 1800rpm with a 3.54 rear, .82 fifth. Next the XJ-S weak point is a stock 10 bolt ( the old high HP GM's used 12 bolts, Ford 9", Mopar Dana 60's) used in 6cyl & lower HP V8's. Jaguar's Dana 44 diff & the cage is mounted with 4 rubber V mounts. High rpm rpm launches & power shifts will take it's toll on that 10 bolt real fast. Something to think about.
Lawrence

 

OK, all makes sense. I see that a drop all the way to 2500 would be steep, but am in the ballpark with the flat torque curve.

3.31s make sense. I picket 3.54 because that was stock with the 4speed auto, but that seems a better compromise.

Understand the weak points of a 10 bolt rear end, but it's a GT, not a drag racer. From what everyone has said, the Richmond may be a better trans, but the TKO is adequate, fits better, and can accomplish the goal. So much to learn!

 

Cobra replicas running the Jag IRS and sticky drag radials
are lifting the front end on launch and shattering high dollar
custom made halfshafts, but the differential itself is fine.

So unless you are dumping as much torque/horsepower as
a highly modified Ford 427 side oiler, there really should not
be a problem if the differential is well prepared.

 

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I'd like to convert my '85 to a Tremec 5 speed with a 3.31 rear end. However, I have a Dana rear end (square input flange, no drain plug), so I guess I need to convert to a Salisbury.

After trying to figure out what cars the 3.31 came in, I'm confused. What should I look for? Or should I just buy and good Salisbury, and convert it? Cost to convert?

From what I can tell, the Salisbury is a drp in replacement for the Dana. True?

Any recommendations would be most welcome.

Jon

 

Edelweiss:


You will be cutting that tunnel no matter which way you go. Whichever box you choose, you will need to know where the shifter will end up, so you can cut appropriately, and then deal with locating the shift lever through the console. FYI, the Tremec TKO will allow the use of the OEM Jag console top that was made for the 6 cylinder manual cars. I have one, fits like a glove: shifter comes up dead center of the hole, and it was made for a manual box so it finishes the installation like it was meant to be.


Depending on your car's year, the change in diff gear can be easy and with some choice. The 89 and later cars have a speedo pickup on the diff, and the diffs you have available that are PowrLok will be 2.88 and 3.54, as these were the only XJS diffs made with speedo pickups. If you have an earlier XJS, your speedo pickup is off the trans, and you are free to use a PowrLok diff from other Jag models, and this will give you the possibility of a 3.31. I had collected a 3.31 PowrLok from a V12 XJ from the late 70's, and was planning to use this together with a reluctor from an XJ40 diff to provide the speedo. That reluctor goes between the output shaft and the half shaft. You have to mount the pickup to the cage. The reluctor has the same tooth count as the one in the diff. I found a 3.54 with the speedo pickup while I had that cage apart, ready for the 3.31, and at the last minute, put in the 3.54 because I would not have to deal with doing the pickup mounting. In retrospect, I wish I would have used the 3.31 with this wide ratio box. But, I now look at it as a good reason to eventually switch to a Richmond 6 with a close ratio gear set. Always something!


These are very strong diffs, Dana 44's and unless you are planning to really up the power, or are planning to drive quarter mile style drags, you won't have problems.


What you WILL have to look after, though, is the mounts for the rear cage, both the four cage mounts themselves and the radius or trailing arm mounts. This car has very carefully selected compliant rubber mounts on everything to give that Jag level of refinement and magic carpet ride. The ones on the cage are gonna get a real workout with a manual box, even if you drive it reasonably, albeit sporting at times. I have had a manual since 2008 and have had to replace the radius arm big end bushes during this time (and they were pretty fresh when I installed that box). I don't do standing start, rev and drop the clutch launches, but I do enjoy running through the gears. Point is, some attention will need to be paid to locating that cage a bit more reliably, or, keep your driving manners to the mild side, and regularly inspect the bush condition on the cage mounting and trailing arm points. Biggest problem is the fore and aft rotation of the cage due to the acceleration. There are many ways to address this, look around this site and jag lovers and google about- you will find many ways to approach this.


I have not done anything about it (yet), but plan to locate from the center of the tie plate, and restrict that tendency to rock. It'll be bushed, not rigidly done, so will still remain somewhat compliant. Part of the trick is finding a way to do this that doesn't hopelessly complicate future maintenance tasks, more stuff to take down and put back, that sort of thing.


I harp on the rear gear because this is a heavy car, and to get it to move a bit more smartly requires either more power or more leverage. Or less weight.


-M

 

Mike90
I take it from what you are saying, other models came with the Dana with a 3.31? I don't care which brand diff I get, as long as it has powerlock. I never powershift, so I'm not worried about shock loads.

Jon

 

Yes. The XJS in its early form when first released had a 3.31, at least in the U.S. And the four speed versions (very rare, few made) had a 3.2x first gear. This should tell you a lot about what Jag felt about the gearing.


Anyway, the non US cars had a 3.07 gear. When the HE was introduced, as part of the strategy to improve fuel economy, the final drive was changed to 2.88. From that time until the 6L V12 cars in the 90's, the V12 models all came with 2.88 diffs. The 6 cylinder models, though, all came with 3.54's. Those later XJS 6L cars came with 3.54 diffs, and this was because the trans had changed as well.


Turns out, though, that the XJ 12 sedans were built using PowrLok diffs, and these were made in different ratios depending on production year. The 1970's XJ 12 sedans used 3.31. I think some of the E types also used 3.31 gearing. These are not easy to locate, and are highly prized. But you never know- the E type crowd is quite fond of pulling their 3.31 and 3.54 diffs and dropping in 2.88's! All in an effort to get the highway cruise RPMs down. So you can find ring and pinion sets, if not full diffs in that crowd from time to time.


Since these diffs are basically DANA 44's, you can get ring and pinion sets from most any 4WD place. And they know how to work on Dana 44s. But be advised: if you have a 2.88 diff, and want to go to a 3.31 or 3.54, a simple ring and pinion change can't be done with your diff. This is because the carrier (the bit that holds the ring gear) comes in two or three sizes, and the break point is something like 3.07. Below that, you have one carrier size, and it only accepts ring gears with a ratio under 3.07. SO, you will need to spring for a new carrier. All of which starts to get a bit spendy (budget about $1K to do a diff rebuild with a new ring and pinion set and a new carrier). Especially when you tack it onto the trans change.


My advice, if you are looking 3.31, is to be patient. They do come around. Just be sure its a powrlok, before you pay your money. There are ALOT of XJ diffs running around, most are NOT powrlok. It's gotta be a diff from a V12 XJ, and even then, the proof is on the case cover tags, or better still, by opening that cover and actually inspecting the carrier and reading the tooth count stamping in the ring gear. You can usually spot the non-powrlok diffs by their input flange. The XJS diffs all have round, four bolt input flanges.


These 3.31's are also desirable by many 'in the know', track types, and guys who just want their car to have more grunt, so, they can often fetch a decent price, too. That 2.88 I took out of my car, by comparison: I can't give it away. Scrap iron value, I suppose.


-M

 

well back 20 odd yrs, there was no Jag internet, so when i wanted to change ratios from my 78 3.07 Dana PowerLok to something i thought would be just about right, went to local
4WD shop with my gears in hand, he went in back room and came out with a set of 3.73 in the box, said they are for a JEEP rear!

they bolted in case no problem. i also used the jeep/GM yoke with a single piece aluminum driveshaft.

while diff was apart, examined clutch discs, looked OK, BUT something in my picture mind said they look a lot like Corvette discs, and i remembered around 1959-60, Corvette went to an extra thin Belville spring disc plate, had an old Corvette diff laying around for yrs, took it apart and added the vette plates into the Jag diff case. nobody said cant do that!!

so now i have a Hi-Bias powerlok, along with 3.73-1 gear ratio, works great been 21yrs, YUP, it will kick the rear out on corners if you dont know how to drive it, make for great drifting,BUT not my style,gettin to old for that crap!

like i say love them old hot rodders. you see my generation did things because we didnt know we couldnt????