V12 Rare or V6?
#21
05-16-2015, 07:45 AM
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He we go... 0-60 times from various magazine road tests:
First the V12 cars.
8.6 seconds USA Coupe pre HE
7.8 seconds USA Coupe pre HE (hi compression)
8.2 seconds USA Coupe HE
9.9 seconds USA Conv HE
10.2 seconds USA Conv HE
7.8 seconds USA Coupe Facelift
7.4 seconds USA Coupe Facelift
6.6 seconds USA Coupe Facelift 6.0 litre
6.5 seconds ROW Coupe HE
8.5 seconds ROW Coupe HE
7.9 seconds ROW Conv HE
8.0 seconds ROW Conv HE
7.7 seconds ROW Conv HE
Now the six cylinder cars.....
7.4 seconds ROW coupe 3.6L 5-speed
7.8 seconds ROW coupe 3.6L 5-speed
8.7 seconds ROW coupe 4.0L auto
8.5 seconds ROW coupe 4.0L auto
7.5 seconds ROW coupe 4.0L 5-speed
7.8 seconds USA coupe 4.0L auto
8.2 seconds USA coupe 4.0L auto
7.4 seconds USA coupe 4.0L auto
In a some cases where 'conv' is indicated the car was actually a cabriolet....but I didn't backtrack to correct that detail. In any case, be it convertible or cabriolet, it's a heavier car than the coupe
On the six cylinder cars I'm not sure if there is any horsepower rating difference between USA and ROW cars. I don't think so....but notice that the USA versions are quicker than the ROW!
A couple of those V12 times @ approx 10 seconds are so far out of the typical range that it makes a person wonder if the cars were operating properly.....or?
Cheers
DD
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#22
05-16-2015, 08:33 AM
I've owned them all at some point. I've had a 1995 6.0 convertible, a 1992 5.3 convertible, and now a 1994 4.0 with a 5 speed. I've always considered condition and maintenance of cars over what engine is present. The most fun is the 5 speed. The smoothest was the 6.0. I like power as much as the next guy, but the way I use them as weekend cruisers, it doesn't really matter. If I wanted to drive cross-country, give me the 6.0, I'll set the cruise control on 80 mph and just go.
It's always been the cosmetics that are expensive to fix on these cars. They're not (yet) worth enough money to dump a lot into them, so, if looking, buy the nicest one out there. If it's a V-12, make damn sure it was never overheated, but to me, the engine choice is secondary to condition.
It's always been the cosmetics that are expensive to fix on these cars. They're not (yet) worth enough money to dump a lot into them, so, if looking, buy the nicest one out there. If it's a V-12, make damn sure it was never overheated, but to me, the engine choice is secondary to condition.
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#23
05-16-2015, 09:05 AM
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it would be interesting to see the performance ,from 50 to 80 mph, and of course for the die-hard guys, time to 100-120mph.
wouldnt happen often,but on the open USA interstate hyways, i'm sure it could happen often!
here in Texas we have numerous 85 mph limits tht are regularly clocked at 90+, some times for hours on end!
wouldnt happen often,but on the open USA interstate hyways, i'm sure it could happen often!
here in Texas we have numerous 85 mph limits tht are regularly clocked at 90+, some times for hours on end!
#24
05-16-2015, 06:15 PM
I've owned them all at some point. I've had a 1995 6.0 convertible, a 1992 5.3 convertible, and now a 1994 4.0 with a 5 speed. I've always considered condition and maintenance of cars over what engine is present. The most fun is the 5 speed. The smoothest was the 6.0. I like power as much as the next guy, but the way I use them as weekend cruisers, it doesn't really matter. If I wanted to drive cross-country, give me the 6.0, I'll set the cruise control on 80 mph and just go.
It's always been the cosmetics that are expensive to fix on these cars. They're not (yet) worth enough money to dump a lot into them, so, if looking, buy the nicest one out there. If it's a V-12, make damn sure it was never overheated, but to me, the engine choice is secondary to condition.
It's always been the cosmetics that are expensive to fix on these cars. They're not (yet) worth enough money to dump a lot into them, so, if looking, buy the nicest one out there. If it's a V-12, make damn sure it was never overheated, but to me, the engine choice is secondary to condition.
I have heard over and over again that the manual transmissions really wake the XJS up. Now you have me dreaming about a '95 AJ16 supercharged with a 5 speed-Oh It's good to have dreams-LOL.
#25
05-16-2015, 08:18 PM
Veteran Member
it would be interesting to see the performance ,from 50 to 80 mph, and of course for the die-hard guys, time to 100-120mph.
wouldnt happen often,but on the open USA interstate hyways, i'm sure it could happen often!
here in Texas we have numerous 85 mph limits tht are regularly clocked at 90+, some times for hours on end!
wouldnt happen often,but on the open USA interstate hyways, i'm sure it could happen often!
here in Texas we have numerous 85 mph limits tht are regularly clocked at 90+, some times for hours on end!
Worse yet, how many times doing a stint to 120 mph you find yourself with "company" doing that? Once, twice in a life time?
Then, ask yourself the same question in regards to a short stint to 40 or 60, especially with the abundance of beefed up sedans like Beemers, Audi's, Caddy's, you name it, at least here in SoCal, I don't know about Texas.
#26
05-17-2015, 07:42 AM
Senior Member
And it seems to me that this very approach that you describe is what, not only puts you in a mood to battle the problem and win, but it will eventually give birth to this unusual bond between car and owner, I'd say. Once that hurdle is sorted, the V12 car and its difficult ownership becomes "mentally manageable" and what would be absolutely unacceptable to most car owners becomes just another routine fix. I guess there's nothing wrong with that.
Cheers,
Cheers,
#27
05-17-2015, 09:32 AM
My XJR 100 is my daily,no snow and ice on the road, car now but I still miss my 82 XJ-S with the slightly modified 12.
I drove it for 8 years and despite being sluggish because of the high gearing it had its own character when accelerating.
Put it in first with the 3 speed gearbox and floor the pedal.
It kept going in first gear till about 65 miles per hour and with a clunk would shift hard into second and spin the wheels.
Not many cars offered that kind of behavior, If I remember my calculations correctly it would do a bit faster in reverse.(do not attempt)
So cheap trills were to be found in that old heavy car.
About the dreaded poor gas mileage of early V12 I can state it is a matter how you calculate.
After owning many different cars I calculated my V12 used less gas per year than any other car I owned.
On rainy days the windshield wipers broke, on hot days gas vapor locks.
When the engine ran perfect the doorlocks broke and it would be impossible to get in or out of the car and so forth.
Jaguar v12 XJS' have contributed very little to global warming.
Blame the Priuses that run 100.000 mile a year with out a hiccup.
When the 82 was 32 years old I had it put down.
I could not get my self to sell it, the skin of my knuckles are under the hood.
It had been sitting for five month in the VT winter buried under 3 feet of snow, I charged the battery and it started on first beat.
That engine was so strong and all original Lucas and fuel lines still worked.
Not much else worked at that point , some charity hauled it away.
Perhaps the old cat saved some real cats in a shelter.
.
I drove it for 8 years and despite being sluggish because of the high gearing it had its own character when accelerating.
Put it in first with the 3 speed gearbox and floor the pedal.
It kept going in first gear till about 65 miles per hour and with a clunk would shift hard into second and spin the wheels.
Not many cars offered that kind of behavior, If I remember my calculations correctly it would do a bit faster in reverse.(do not attempt)
So cheap trills were to be found in that old heavy car.
About the dreaded poor gas mileage of early V12 I can state it is a matter how you calculate.
After owning many different cars I calculated my V12 used less gas per year than any other car I owned.
On rainy days the windshield wipers broke, on hot days gas vapor locks.
When the engine ran perfect the doorlocks broke and it would be impossible to get in or out of the car and so forth.
Jaguar v12 XJS' have contributed very little to global warming.
Blame the Priuses that run 100.000 mile a year with out a hiccup.
When the 82 was 32 years old I had it put down.
I could not get my self to sell it, the skin of my knuckles are under the hood.
It had been sitting for five month in the VT winter buried under 3 feet of snow, I charged the battery and it started on first beat.
That engine was so strong and all original Lucas and fuel lines still worked.
Not much else worked at that point , some charity hauled it away.
Perhaps the old cat saved some real cats in a shelter.
.
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#28
05-17-2015, 09:55 AM
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Another consideration, on the "pro V12" side of the debate, is that V12 ownership should be easier now than it ever was.
Although an occasional new glitch pops up from time-to-time, about 95% of the V12 foibles and failures ....and the best fixes.... have been well documented and are easily accessible via the internet. We're in a much better position than owners were in the 70s-80s-90s.
A person taking the "do it all, do it right, do it once" approach will likely have a good V12 experience.
Carry on :-)
Cheers
DD
Although an occasional new glitch pops up from time-to-time, about 95% of the V12 foibles and failures ....and the best fixes.... have been well documented and are easily accessible via the internet. We're in a much better position than owners were in the 70s-80s-90s.
A person taking the "do it all, do it right, do it once" approach will likely have a good V12 experience.
Carry on :-)
Cheers
DD
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Greg in France (05-18-2015)
#29
05-17-2015, 10:33 AM
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My XJR 100 is my daily,no snow and ice on the road, car now but I still miss my 82 XJ-S with the slightly modified 12.
I drove it for 8 years and despite being sluggish because of the high gearing it had its own character when accelerating.
Put it in first with the 3 speed gearbox and floor the pedal.
It kept going in first gear till about 65 miles per hour and with a clunk would shift hard into second and spin the wheels.
Not many cars offered that kind of behavior, If I remember my calculations correctly it would do a bit faster in reverse.(do not attempt)
So cheap trills were to be found in that old heavy car.
About the dreaded poor gas mileage of early V12 I can state it is a matter how you calculate.
After owning many different cars I calculated my V12 used less gas per year than any other car I owned.
On rainy days the windshield wipers broke, on hot days gas vapor locks.
When the engine ran perfect the doorlocks broke and it would be impossible to get in or out of the car and so forth.
Jaguar v12 XJS' have contributed very little to global warming.
Blame the Priuses that run 100.000 mile a year with out a hiccup.
When the 82 was 32 years old I had it put down.
I could not get my self to sell it, the skin of my knuckles are under the hood.
It had been sitting for five month in the VT winter buried under 3 feet of snow, I charged the battery and it started on first beat.
That engine was so strong and all original Lucas and fuel lines still worked.
Not much else worked at that point , some charity hauled it away.
Perhaps the old cat saved some real cats in a shelter.
.
I drove it for 8 years and despite being sluggish because of the high gearing it had its own character when accelerating.
Put it in first with the 3 speed gearbox and floor the pedal.
It kept going in first gear till about 65 miles per hour and with a clunk would shift hard into second and spin the wheels.
Not many cars offered that kind of behavior, If I remember my calculations correctly it would do a bit faster in reverse.(do not attempt)
So cheap trills were to be found in that old heavy car.
About the dreaded poor gas mileage of early V12 I can state it is a matter how you calculate.
After owning many different cars I calculated my V12 used less gas per year than any other car I owned.
On rainy days the windshield wipers broke, on hot days gas vapor locks.
When the engine ran perfect the doorlocks broke and it would be impossible to get in or out of the car and so forth.
Jaguar v12 XJS' have contributed very little to global warming.
Blame the Priuses that run 100.000 mile a year with out a hiccup.
When the 82 was 32 years old I had it put down.
I could not get my self to sell it, the skin of my knuckles are under the hood.
It had been sitting for five month in the VT winter buried under 3 feet of snow, I charged the battery and it started on first beat.
That engine was so strong and all original Lucas and fuel lines still worked.
Not much else worked at that point , some charity hauled it away.
Perhaps the old cat saved some real cats in a shelter.
.
and of course "to each his own"
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Greg in France (05-18-2015)
#31
05-17-2015, 11:45 AM
Veteran Member
Another consideration, on the "pro V12" side of the debate, is that V12 ownership should be easier now than it ever was.
Although an occasional new glitch pops up from time-to-time, about 95% of the V12 foibles and failures ....and the best fixes.... have been well documented and are easily accessible via the internet. We're in a much better position than owners were in the 70s-80s-90s.
A person taking the "do it all, do it right, do it once" approach will likely have a good V12 experience.
Carry on :-)
Cheers
DD
Although an occasional new glitch pops up from time-to-time, about 95% of the V12 foibles and failures ....and the best fixes.... have been well documented and are easily accessible via the internet. We're in a much better position than owners were in the 70s-80s-90s.
A person taking the "do it all, do it right, do it once" approach will likely have a good V12 experience.
Carry on :-)
Cheers
DD
Cheers,
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Greg in France (05-18-2015)
#32
05-17-2015, 01:56 PM
Ronbros, with all due respect I am not sure what it is as a 6 owner that I do not get? Come to think about it maybe these are some of the things I do not get by owning the 6 instead of the 12 :
1. skinned up knuckles working under the hood since my AJ16 is easily accessible.
2. excessive heat in my engine compartment every time I take my AJ16 XJS out for a drive.
3. sticker shock when I fill up my gas tank after running around for the weekend.
4. depleted bank account from buying parts for my Jaguar 12.
5. spending hours upon hours learning how to fix problems that are Jaguar 12 specific.
6. having people ask me how many horsepower my 12 cylinder develops and then hearing them walking away laughing that their v6 produces more with twice the gas mileage.
7. telling everyone over and over again how fast my car accelerates from 80 to 120 mph even though 99 % of the roads I drive on have a maximum speed limit of 65 to 75 mph.
8. being told by auto supply companies that we carry that part in stock because it is such a common problem with this engine.
9. being able to brag about the fact that I spend less per year on gas with my Jag V12 then any other car I own ( of course I leave out the fact that I do not drive my Jag V12 very much because I am spending more time working on it then driving it ).
10. And the number on thing I do not get by owning a XJS with the 6 instead of the 12 .....explaining to my wife that I really do not have a mistress but rather I am spending my time in the garage with my V12 XJS that takes hours just to access a power steering hose.
#33
05-17-2015, 02:38 PM
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Seems to me that there's an inordinate/unreasonable amount of focus being placed on the ease of underhood repairs on the V12 cars.
Sure, it's more difficult...but surely it must be kept in perspective. And, good grief, if ease-of-repair carried so much weight elsewhere the old car hobby in general we'd never see *any* neat old cars on the road.
Same for learning about the quirks of a V12. Big deal. As I said, it's easier now than it has ever been! I work on lots of old cars. I've actually ** enjoyed ** learning about the quirks of old Corvettes, old Dodge Challengers, old MGs, old Ferraris...etc etc. That's part of the fun, isn't ? I would never have thought that learning about neat old cars would be put in the "downside" column.
(When I've owned six cylinder Jags I also spent time learning about six cylinder quirks, too, I might add)
I'm grateful that ** at least a few people ** are interested in actually keeping V12 Jags on the road rather than finding a laundry list of reasons to disparage them.
Cheers
DD
Sure, it's more difficult...but surely it must be kept in perspective. And, good grief, if ease-of-repair carried so much weight elsewhere the old car hobby in general we'd never see *any* neat old cars on the road.
Same for learning about the quirks of a V12. Big deal. As I said, it's easier now than it has ever been! I work on lots of old cars. I've actually ** enjoyed ** learning about the quirks of old Corvettes, old Dodge Challengers, old MGs, old Ferraris...etc etc. That's part of the fun, isn't ? I would never have thought that learning about neat old cars would be put in the "downside" column.
(When I've owned six cylinder Jags I also spent time learning about six cylinder quirks, too, I might add)
I'm grateful that ** at least a few people ** are interested in actually keeping V12 Jags on the road rather than finding a laundry list of reasons to disparage them.
Cheers
DD
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#34
05-17-2015, 10:55 PM
Veteran Member
I6 owners rarely make unrequested superiority statements; we only react. Therefore, one recommended preventative action for this kind of forum encounters would be to just restrain from making unfounded statements that can only bring up a blast of compelling rebuttals. It is expected that we speak highly of our beloved Jags, but it is even better if comparison statements are driven from fact.
Cheers,
Cheers,
#35
05-17-2015, 11:49 PM
Senior Member
Xjs
I6 versions only came to the US in mass numbers after the facelift in '92 and the introduction of the 4.0 liter. And when they did they quickly outnumbered the V12's. In fact I've heard only 100 V12 xjs's came into the US in 1995 and 1996; 50 coupes and 50 convertibles.
The 3.6 I6 available in the UK in the 80's was never available in the US. I've seen a few here but they are all RHD..
The 3.6 I6 available in the UK in the 80's was never available in the US. I've seen a few here but they are all RHD..
I'm guessing that makes Jimmy's new XJS 12cylindar 5.3l. black 1986 that much more special! 
Manwich in his birthday present May 16, 2015
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#36
05-18-2015, 12:08 AM
I6 owners rarely make unrequested superiority statements; we only react. Therefore, one recommended preventative action for this kind of forum encounters would be to just restrain from making unfounded statements that can only bring up a blast of compelling rebuttals. It is expected that we speak highly of our beloved Jags, but it is even better if comparison statements are driven from fact.
Cheers,
Cheers,
Agree 100%. What do you expect when some V12 owners say things like :
The XJS without the V12 is only half the car or those who do not own a V12 just don't get it. I as well as many, many others bought a XJS because we love and appreciate the car regardless of what engine the car has in it.
I would not have purchased a XJS if it was only available with a V12 simply because that was not the kind of ownership experience I was seeking but I respect those that choose the V12 because I know it takes a huge commitment to keep a V12 XJS running correctly.
There is no reason why a XJS owner with the 6 cylinder should not be treated with respect on this forum and when respect is not given do not be surprised when we bite back now and then.
Funny how I have read through not only the XJS forums for years but also many of the other Jag forums like the E-types and I can say I do not see the type of disrespect I see from some of the XJS V12 owners towards the XJS 6 owners on the other forums.
To be completely honest I have never gotten use to this as I assumed when I decided to buy a XJS that the last group of Jaguar owners that would not be supportive to each other would be the XJS owners as if any Jag owners were used to being treated as outcast for years in the Jag community it was the XJS owner.
IMHO we should be focused on keeping as many of these fine cars on the road and not on what engine it has, what tail lamps, bumpers, steering wheel etc. the car came with. The car was made for 21 model years so of course there will be variances and this is what gives the XJS so much personality.
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#37
05-18-2015, 09:42 AM
Senior Member
A wise man once said to me "Don't fetishize the solution; one size does not fit all."
I bought my XJ-S because it was the nicest I could find/afford. The V12 in it was, if anything, unfortunate. As I have it, I spend to care for it but the macho cache of having one is a bit lost on me. I'd never swap it out, as I respect the car but I would love to have the XJ-S experience without the constant vigilance required of maintaining it. I *am* grateful to all of you who feel differently.
I bought my XJ-S because it was the nicest I could find/afford. The V12 in it was, if anything, unfortunate. As I have it, I spend to care for it but the macho cache of having one is a bit lost on me. I'd never swap it out, as I respect the car but I would love to have the XJ-S experience without the constant vigilance required of maintaining it. I *am* grateful to all of you who feel differently.
#38
05-18-2015, 03:27 PM
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Agree 100%. What do you expect when some V12 owners say things like :
The XJS without the V12 is only half the car or those who do not own a V12 just don't get it. I as well as many, many others bought a XJS because we love and appreciate the car regardless of what engine the car has in it.
I would not have purchased a XJS if it was only available with a V12 simply because that was not the kind of ownership experience I was seeking but I respect those that choose the V12 because I know it takes a huge commitment to keep a V12 XJS running correctly.
There is no reason why a XJS owner with the 6 cylinder should not be treated with respect on this forum and when respect is not given do not be surprised when we bite back now and then.
Funny how I have read through not only the XJS forums for years but also many of the other Jag forums like the E-types and I can say I do not see the type of disrespect I see from some of the XJS V12 owners towards the XJS 6 owners on the other forums.
To be completely honest I have never gotten use to this as I assumed when I decided to buy a XJS that the last group of Jaguar owners that would not be supportive to each other would be the XJS owners as if any Jag owners were used to being treated as outcast for years in the Jag community it was the XJS owner.
IMHO we should be focused on keeping as many of these fine cars on the road and not on what engine it has, what tail lamps, bumpers, steering wheel etc. the car came with. The car was made for 21 model years so of course there will be variances and this is what gives the XJS so much personality.
The XJS without the V12 is only half the car or those who do not own a V12 just don't get it. I as well as many, many others bought a XJS because we love and appreciate the car regardless of what engine the car has in it.
I would not have purchased a XJS if it was only available with a V12 simply because that was not the kind of ownership experience I was seeking but I respect those that choose the V12 because I know it takes a huge commitment to keep a V12 XJS running correctly.
There is no reason why a XJS owner with the 6 cylinder should not be treated with respect on this forum and when respect is not given do not be surprised when we bite back now and then.
Funny how I have read through not only the XJS forums for years but also many of the other Jag forums like the E-types and I can say I do not see the type of disrespect I see from some of the XJS V12 owners towards the XJS 6 owners on the other forums.
To be completely honest I have never gotten use to this as I assumed when I decided to buy a XJS that the last group of Jaguar owners that would not be supportive to each other would be the XJS owners as if any Jag owners were used to being treated as outcast for years in the Jag community it was the XJS owner.
IMHO we should be focused on keeping as many of these fine cars on the road and not on what engine it has, what tail lamps, bumpers, steering wheel etc. the car came with. The car was made for 21 model years so of course there will be variances and this is what gives the XJS so much personality.
#39
05-18-2015, 04:07 PM
This whole issue really just comes down to basic human nature.
Humans have always associated "more" with "better". More food is better. More money is better. More cylinders are better.
As it refers to automobile engines many people still think of engines with more cylinders or larger cubic inches as more powerful and therefore "better".
Some will take the time to look at actual performance numbers to see if the larger or smaller engine actually produces greater performance but most just look at the size of the engine and think that bigger is better.
The other aspect of the V12 is that it is considered "exotic" in America. Very few American cars ever came with a V12. Only exotic cars from Europe had V12's.
I bet if you ask the average American what cars have V12's the first thing they will say is Ferrari or Lamborghini. Both cars considered very fast, exotic and special.
And so it is with the XJS. The average America hears "V12" and immediately assumes that its a fast car. They don't look at the specs. They think "Ferrari".
I admit that I too consider the V12 to be exotic and special. I know that I might get outrun by a 6 cylinder and even some 4 cylinders cars but that is not important to me.
For me the V12 is smooth, reasonably powerful and just plain fun. Its not perfect by any means but I enjoy it.
If my XJS brother has a 6 cylinder I don't look down on him. He enjoys his car as much as I enjoy mine. That can only be good for all of us.
Mark
Humans have always associated "more" with "better". More food is better. More money is better. More cylinders are better.
As it refers to automobile engines many people still think of engines with more cylinders or larger cubic inches as more powerful and therefore "better".
Some will take the time to look at actual performance numbers to see if the larger or smaller engine actually produces greater performance but most just look at the size of the engine and think that bigger is better.
The other aspect of the V12 is that it is considered "exotic" in America. Very few American cars ever came with a V12. Only exotic cars from Europe had V12's.
I bet if you ask the average American what cars have V12's the first thing they will say is Ferrari or Lamborghini. Both cars considered very fast, exotic and special.
And so it is with the XJS. The average America hears "V12" and immediately assumes that its a fast car. They don't look at the specs. They think "Ferrari".
I admit that I too consider the V12 to be exotic and special. I know that I might get outrun by a 6 cylinder and even some 4 cylinders cars but that is not important to me.
For me the V12 is smooth, reasonably powerful and just plain fun. Its not perfect by any means but I enjoy it.
If my XJS brother has a 6 cylinder I don't look down on him. He enjoys his car as much as I enjoy mine. That can only be good for all of us.
Mark
Last edited by Safari; 05-18-2015 at 04:11 PM.
