A quick explanation regarding the dealer workshop.

It is quiet, but the road noise in the background makes it very difficult to hear specific engine noises. I was there and although I could still hear it very slightly, I knew what I was listening for.

 

Are you sure it's not the injectors? Most new cars with direct injection systems have a ticking sound, it's very common. Some manufacturers(like BMW) can sound like a diesel at idle!

 

Looks like its another Actuator/VVT tick... good lord!

 

hm1,

Yes it's definitely vvt tick, the injectors make a different sound when the bonnet/hood is open and you put your ear close to them.

This is a tinny sounding tick, like tappet sound, very similar to the old overhead cam engines that were starved of oil due to dirty deposits blocking the oil feed journals to the camshafts.

Other than that the engine pulls like a train and is quiet, it's only on cold start that the ticking becomes apparent, just when it settles down to 500rpm.

I'll post more on the outcome after the vvt's have been fitted.

 

hm1,

A bit off topic "sort of" I have a new Ford Focus ST and that engine has audible injector ticking when the bonnet/hod is up, it's pretty silent when the bonnet is down. The Jaguar has a very noisy tick with the bonnet closed!

The Focus ST also pulls like a train, not too far behind the XKR 5.0sc 0-100kph has five seats, better fuel economy, goes around corners like it's on rails, easy to park and all round more practical........ But, when you get in the Jaguar.....none of that matters, I still take the Jag whenever possible.

 

Duplicated post

 

I have had this ticking noise since I got the car 3 years ago at 1000miles only at the first start up of the day. Reputable dealer said it was the high pressure fuel pump. It goes away after a few minutes. I don't do a big mileage as I use my wife's car for all the dodgy car parks! However 11000 miles later it is just the same. No change at all. if it gets worse will get it checked.

 

Jagst,

Have a look at Loth's post above. He had his actuators(vvt's) replaced and the ticking has now gone. My opinion is that the thin oil these engines use drains out of a poorly manufactured vvt over night, when the car is started in the morning it takes a while for the oil pressure to fill these back up to normal operating pressure.

Not every 5.0 sc suffers this problem, so it could be possible that a bad batch that were manufactured found themselves on the production line.

I would take a phone video of your morning startup and book your car in to the dealership, show them the footage and ask them to keep your car overnight and start it when the workshop is silent so they can hear it. Nobody likes to hear a noisy engine and if you don't get it done now under warranty, if/ when you come to sell the car, it could put buyers off, or they could at least knock money off the price for a tappety engine..... I know I would, or they might ask you to get it repaired before they buy it, you would be out of pocket.

Your car is your pride and joy, I know mine is and I want to keep it like that for as long as possible, autoglym on the outside, gliptone conditioner on all the interior leather and all mechanical's working perfect.

Gliptone leather conditioner also leaves the leather smelling great, people comment on the smell of leather when they get in the car. Collinite 845 Insulator wax after a polish with Autoglym and the car looks like it's just rolled out of the showroom.

Let us know how you go, I'll update further when mine has the vvt's replaced and let you know if the tick has gone for good.

 

Hi guys.

While my car was at the Jaguar Dealership having a few warranty repairs done, I asked if there were any service schedules on the diff (my car has 70,000km on the clock) There are no service schedules on the diff was the dealers reply.

I asked if they could change the diff oil whilst it was there, just for my own peace of mind. Sure, no problem. The oil on the invoice I paid said Castrol Syntrax 75/90

I collected the car and straight from the dealer the car vibrated heavily from the rear when turning left or right. I contacted the dealer the next day by phone, but the service centre was busy and they would get someone to contact me... nobody phoned. I called again, I was told that they would get someone from service to call me back, nobody contacted me. I sent an email outlining the problem, still no call back and no email response.

I contacted Castrol UK & CJCjaguarAustralia to see if the right weight oil had been used, Castrol UK responded immediately and said that indeed, the wrong oil had been used. The correct oil is Castrol BOT 720 75/90 with friction modifiers to allow the Diff clutch packs to release when turning left or right. I also contacted Jaguar UK, they said they would get CJCjaguar Australia to step in. CJCJaguar Australia said they would get the dealer to contact me.

I used the car for 2 and a half weeks before being contacted by the dealer, they then agreed to have the car towed into the service bay for checks. Sure enough it was the wrong oil. The dealer flushed the Ediff and put the Castrol BOT 720 in and gave me the car back. The car performed as it should while turning left & right.

My thought is that while I drove the car for 2 and a half weeks with the wrong oil, has the vibration and the clutch packs not releasing while turning left & right multiple times worn the clutch packs / put stress on bearings etc.

Yesterday I pulled out of my garage, got to the end of the street and got a large "Ediff MALFUNCTION" alert on the dashboard.

I slowly drove the car back to my garage at 5kph and emailed the Jaguar dealership this morning, I also rang them. They said to contact Jaguar breakdown and get the car towed in again. I'll update more once the car has been looked at by the Jaguar dealer.

 

interesting...and I was just thinking about getting this done. :O

 

They screwed it up they should get you a whole new DIFFERENTIAL!

 

G'day Loth,

I have documented the diff oil change (wrong oil) with Jaguar Australia & Jaguar UK. as well as the dealer.

They don't think any damage would have been done in the 2.5 weeks the wrong oil was in there and they may be right. Personally I would of done an oil analysis on the oil (if it were my workshop mistake) that way it could be determined if there were metal contaminants in the oil (after all it was brand new oil last time, just the wrong type) or whether it was a clean sample.

If, as they say no wear or damage should have taken place, they would have had evidence. I did ask the dealer if they could do an oil analysis but the "wrong" oil had been disposed of.

I suppose time will tell and if I do get problems I will produce the documentation to get the diff corrected.

The correct oil for the XKR 5.0sc with Ediff is Castrol BOT 720 75/90 this oil has "friction modifiers" to help the clutch packs release when the outside wheel rotates faster than the inside as in cornering.

Page 141 in below link. God only knows why I had to show Jaguar this page to prove the wrong diff oil had been used, They wrote the book!!

http://www.jagrepair.com/images/Auto...s-09-2009-.pdf

As with all things, if the correct oil is used the car will run as smooth as silk.

I'm surprised Jaguar don't have a schedule for the diff oil, say every 50,000 or 75,000 etc. I also did my transmission (again no schedule) I used the Lifeguard 6 as spec and replaced the filter, the trans changes are lovely and smooth and that's how I want to keep it. Come on Jaguar, give us more information on how to keep our cars in top condition, especially regarding lubricants.

The "Ediff MALFUNCTION" warning has not appeared again, I started the car this morning (no warning on the dash) took it for a good run & up to a CRAZY 100kph "oooohhh" I risked getting my face peeled back at the dizzy Australian speed limit :-) still no warning. I looked on the forums and it looks like moisture in the Ediff connection under the car can cause the warning light to illuminate (as members have posted) i'll monitor the situation.

I'll update more on the vvt's when they are replaced.

 

Ok,

So since my car first went back to the dealer eight months ago for the ticking / rattle noise at cold start up, it is still un-fixed.

It still makes the noise, the dealer fitted a new water pump under warranty when they fitted a new service kit to the supercharger ( the supercharger was first diagnosed as the cause of the rattle/ ticking noise). I suspect either a water hose was trapped, or a hose clamp left loose as the car spewed coolant out and overheated within 30km of me collecting the car from the workshop.

Ever since, the car has had a coolant leak and been back to the dealership numerous times in the past eight months, including having three, I kid you not THREE new water pumps fitted ( as this was deemed where the coolant was leaking from on each occasion)

I think the root cause of the water pump failures is due to the engine overheating when the supercharger kit was fitted and now a ahead gasket is pressurising the coolant system, which in turn pushes the coolant out through the seal of the new water pumps.

The car went into the dealership on the 15th December 2016 and they still have it to this day 6th March 2017. This is to diagnose the engine tick/ rattle, even though a Jaguar tech From Jaguar Australia diagnosed the VVT as the problem and of course, they are still trying to diagnose the recurring coolant leak.

I'll post more when I hear from the dealer.

 

If you think the coolant leak is from overheating and a blown head gasket they should be able to run a test verifying if you have exhaust in the coolant. Ask them if they check it but if you didn't run the car for a long time after the low coolant warning I doubt you blew the head gasket.

 

Hi Jagtoes.

The dealer said they checked the engine after the first overheat, they did a pressure test, but this only pressurises the coolant system to approx 25-30psi. If there is a blow by between cylinders (psi in the cylinders when the engine is running can be between 120-240psi) it could enter the coolant system.

I did ask the dealer if they wanted to borrow my block tester to check for exhaust gas in the coolant, but they said they have one. Whether they used it and checked the coolant system I don't know.

What I do know is that after three new water pumps in four months, there is definitely an underlying problem, root cause analysis is order of the day.

 

Ok, I have a couple of updates.

My car is still at the dealer, it's been there since 15 Dec 2016 for them to fix the ticking on start up. They are going to replace the chains, tensioners and VVT's. I'll update more when i get it back.

I also had the misfortune to order parts from Buycarparts.co.uk They look like a British parts company, but they seem to be based in Berlin (judging from the emails)

Their website took my order and my payment for front & rear brake discs, but they hadn't got stock, they didn't tell me they were out of stock, I had to email them a week later to ask why my order hadn't arrived. I did say to them that their website should make purchaser's aware if they DON'T have stock, so that we can buy elsewhere from another supplier. They then asked "Do you still want your order"? I said "yes"

Now they are saying that the new stock has arrived, but damaged. So they haven't sent the parts.

I emailed them and said that they should offer the customer another brand of equal quality (or better) as it's normal "good customer service practice"

I wont be ordering parts from this company again (there are far better suppliers in the UK) who value their customers. I thought I would post this message so that other Jaguar forum members don't end up getting the same sort of service.

 

Mate, you have made a terrible miscalculation, because you care about preservation like I do, I am taking the effort to explain.

The Jaguar VVT is a work of art. Its ingenious and patented. In fact the patent is for exactly the opposite of what you describe. Jaguar built a valve that closes and prevents the oil from draining out- which is unlike any other VVT!! Even Ford licenses the patent from Jaguar!.

I will attach the patent below for your examination later. If you are with me so far and agree, we need to realize what is happening in some cars....

First we need to dispel another compounding misconception. Thin oil is BETTER, you dont want thick oil. Since the launch of the AJ8Gen3 engine (5.0) the only thing that Jaguar has updated is they have gone to a even thinner oil. Crucially, thinner on the startup- the first number. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Thick oil takes longer to flow on startup which will worsen the problem. And yet this is exactly what is happening, oil thicken with carbon deposits, pour fresh oil out of a bottle and used oil- you will visually see what I am talking about.

The manufacturing of these VVTs is also top notch, made by VVT expert Borg Warner. There is no better, notably they all use Borg Warner.

The issue I suspected and proved by solving my cam phaser problem was: After studying the design I suspected that these guys are susceptible to inappropriate oil sitting there baking. Especially if the wrong oil was used even once in its lifetime, by someone as unsuspecting as yourself adding thicker oil thinking it was better. Plus these cars dont get driven enough to allow the oil to properly cleanse the engine.

Would you believe after thoroughly cleaning the engine the problem is completely gone.
patent https://www.google.com/patents/US7841310

press release Cam-Torque Actuated Variable Valve Timing System ? Feature ? Car and Driver

 

Queen & Country

I totally agree regarding correct oil for these precision engines, I also read up on the Borg Warner cam phasers and they do seem to be a technical marvel. But, we are witnessing problems and even the best of the best can have a manufacturing defect.

My car as an example has been serviced from new at Jaguar dealers, one would think that they use the correct oil (again, errors can be and have been made even at Jaguar dealerships. The very people we trust to be anally correct when working on our vehicles) but my cam phasers are abnormally load on cold start-up, just as the engine settles to idle from the 1000rpm cold start.

The dealership did try to flush the engine and even did two oil changes to try and resolve the problem ( I'm happy the engine flush worked in your case, please let me know the exact details, ie did you run the car to normal temp, drain the oil, add flushing oil, run again, drain and reflush. how many times, did you notice the tick subsiding with each flush or did it disappear after the first flush?)

I'm hoping to have my car back soon with now phaser, chains & tensioner fitted, I can then give an honest opinion on the sound difference at cold start.

Also, for anybody needing the large underbonnet clips for our cars (excellent price for a pack of ten, hopefully they will post in an envelope to keep freight costs to a minimum)

GM 10382313 Sight Shield & Trim Push-Type Retainer

 

Here is what I did.

Changed oil after driving 1000 miles- 3 times.
Oil is an excellent cleaner on its own-it is one of its purposes.
Fortunately our Castrol jag spec oil happens to be one of the best in this regard.
Used Lubegaurd engine flush each time. Its the only flush I trust. Its NOT really a flush, a varnish dissolver. These are the folks that make the legendary varnish removers and friction modifiers for transmissions.
Ran 9 bottles of Techron.
Its proven and already there in gasoline.
I did this part to address sludge in other parts that generally builds up. (think hydraulic tensioners, piston heads)
The only caution is that it thins oil- you want that, but be prepared to dump the oil as soon as you get to the point of over-thinning. So 500 miles first bottle, 300 miles second and 200 on the third.

All of the steps above can be used for general maintenance and cleanliness.
It will shock you how much more one gets out with Lubegaurd vs just simple oil change.
Using two tankfuls of Thecron before dumping the oil is also a must. Its just a very thin oil that floats stuff off metal, like sludge and carbon. Its non combustible so it can be sent through the combustion cycle. It just thins oil. So they play it safe and recommend only use one tankful per 3,000 miles. But if you know what you are doing, you can use many times that amount, i.e in every tank of gas and dump the oil as soon as you feel it thinning. You will hear it. OR just use the schedule above.

 

Thanks for sharing that info Q&C, I have always said that it doesn't matter how grubby the outside of an engine looks ( although it's nice to see a clean engine)

It's the inside that matters, changing oil regularly, using cleaning agents to remove carbon deposits etc is paramount to keeping the inside workings of an engine clinically clean. The knowledge that is shared is what makes this forum one of the best IMO.

When we find out something new, we share the information, whether it be good news or bad, it can hopefully help another forum member avoid an expensive and dare I say "heartbreaking" experience. We love our cars and there is always going to be something mechanical to learn, lucky for us help is always available on this site.