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I have had it up to here -HERE!- with these damn plastic coolant pieces!

XK / XKR ( X150 ) 2006 - 2014

I have had it up to here -HERE!- with these damn plastic coolant pieces!

 
  #41  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:00 PM
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Before plastic fitting the cooling system lasted dang near forever. Old radiators no problem, new ones leak where the plastic tanks are crimped to the aluminum core. The newer designs are far more complicated and that allows far more opportunities for failures to develop. My '68 Fairlane has 5 hoses and they are all original. Same for my 186k mile blown '93 5.0 mustang. The Jag is over a dozen and some have been replaced already. Before buying my '05 Lincoln I'd never heard about replacing the whole cooling system every 8 years. Quite frankly I wouldn't have bought it if I had. The poorly designed Jaguar cooling system on that car has been the highest most aggravating expense.
 
  #42  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:36 PM
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Mandrake, at least the British got the cooling system right on the Rolls-Royce AE 2100D3! If you're a Herc guy, I bet you're familiar with that engine! LOL. So, a little "thread creep," to cool the jets a little... are you also a civilian A&P? What ratings do you have?

Overall, if you're an A&P, and you have a lot of fabrication experience (heaven knows that a well-trained A&P or military technician has exceptional fabrication training), I wouldn't doubt that you can fabricate quality metal parts to replace the plastic pieces you're referring to.

BTW, if you have a photo of the pieces and part of the engine you're referring to, it'd be helpful to see what we're talking about, here. I have a '14 XK, and I have no idea if I'll be experiencing this issue down the road.
 
  #43  
Old 09-13-2017, 04:45 PM
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There is a lot more engineering and restrictions that has to go in to modern cars.
There is crash protection, Fuel Economy, Emissions and manufacturing limitations.
So the hose is most likely being routed to other components, there are sensors on it, and you cant use countless materials due to off-gassing in manufacturing.

you have to weigh the good with the bad.
 
  #44  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:11 AM
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Mandrake,
If I read your post correctly, you removed the front portion of the inner fender liners for better heat exchange. This exposes the airbox and MAF to weather, splash, etc. What is your experience with this exposure? Should one shield the MAF?
I applaud what you are doing. Can you provide us with the oem part numbers of the parts you are fabricating so we can compare interchanges?
Thanks
 
  #45  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:40 PM
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Busy week at home and at work! Let me see if I can catch up here...

PA66 is compatible with antifreeze, but it is not compatible with the corrosion inhibitors present in OAT coolants. From what little reading I've had a chance to do since my last post, Zerex G05 and the OEM Jaguar coolant are HOAT and won't deteriorate the plastic. I still want to read the links you guys have posted... things just got really busy for me, so it might be a while. Thank you guys for posting them, though; I've learned a few things since starting this thread.

As for why not just replace the part every seven years? Well, why? For some, OEM is great. For others, OEM is a great starting point. I've never tried to convince anyone that what I'll be making is right for them. The whole purpose of this was to see if anyone else wanted one while I was making mine. It's a free market; buy​​​​​​ whatever you want.

My ratings... well, I got my A&P cert back in the mid 90s and never really did anything with it. I was an ASE Master Tech but let that expire ten years ago. I'm a CFII in rotorcraft and am single piston engine rated in fixed wing. My work with the C130s is on the electrical and avionics end of things, and believe it or not, they didn't require me to get an avionics rating. Seriously. When I was in the military, I worked with explosives, but that has no bearing on any of this. I am not a machinist and while I've farted around with lathes and endmills, I've never taken a class or been paid for it. That's why I'm subcontracting this out to guys that do it for a living... they're better than me, and have the time to do it that I don't. What's the one saying out there... something about surrounding yourself with people smarter than yourself?

OK, what else? I'm posting from my phone and the mobile site doesn't let me scroll up to reference posts. Oh yeah, something something Rolls Royce... I *love* those engines and how much more advanced they are than the Allison T56 they replaced. But, the FADECs and the CANBUS networks associated with them can be a pain sometimes. Thankfully, I don't work on the flight test side of the house.

I'll post back when I get the first pieces.
 
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  #46  
Old 09-15-2017, 04:32 PM
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I got my A&P in the early 1990s, but I've never turned a wrench professionally. I never had the money for rotary wing, but I'm CFII-MEI, ATP, FE, A&P. And, your old, smokey Allison T56s were awesome, but from an operational standpoint, I'll take a FADEC-controlled engine, any day. Kinda' like on the Jaguar... I think the electronics controlling automotive engines are SO much better than anything from the 1980s... just my two cents. I agree with Rey -- good on you for finding a solution to these plastic parts.
 
  #47  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:32 AM
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Great topic, and nice read so far (as long as tempers are held in check).
I've 2 requests.

I find myself struggling through my parts breakdown manual to even identify the part being discussed! Soooo......

1.) Can someone post an illustrated parts image(s) being discussed from the catalog?
2.) Can the OP (or others) show us images of the parts in the failed condition?

Appreciated!
Vince
 
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  #48  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:23 AM
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Vince, I apologize for not posting part numbers! However, I do happen to have the parts fische up right now as I'm chasing down the gaskets needed for doing the isolation damper in the supercharger. Yep, mine started making that sound today and pulling the belt and going through the troubleshooting confirmed it. Anyway...

The first part I'll be producing will be the coolant overflow/burp hose. Part #17 here:
https://envy.smartdealer.com/2010-ja...lines-4740101/ The drawing does not do this part justice; it looks nothing like that. And, due to how one of the legs connects down and to the left of the throttle body, there may be some additional parts that get replaced to simplify things. You can see this part in your own car by removing the engine cover and looking at the 1/4" black line with a tee in it that runs on top and in front of the engine, then around to the reservoir.

After that, I'll be looking at making the water manifold on the back of the engine. Part #16 here: https://envy.smartdealer.com/2010-ja...pipes-4740102/ This is going to be the expensive one. It's a pretty complex part that will require multiple processes to build and may require additional parts to be made, particularly the rubber hose that runs forward and under the supercharger; I'll know more once I pull the supercharger off mine and have a peek. Fortunately, installing it will be the last time you have to go back in there.

Then it will be on to the oil cooler outlet tube. Part #4 here: https://envy.smartdealer.com/2010-ja..._pump-4740106/
 
  #49  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Mandrake,
If I read your post correctly, you removed the front portion of the inner fender liners for better heat exchange. This exposes the airbox and MAF to weather, splash, etc. What is your experience with this exposure? Should one shield the MAF?
I applaud what you are doing. Can you provide us with the oem part numbers of the parts you are fabricating so we can compare interchanges?
Thanks
My experience is that the electrical connectors are environmentally sealed and safe for exposure to splash from the tire. I wouldn't submerge them, though. The MAF is inside the intake pipe, so it's already shielded from any water.

That having been said, I've driven in the rain a few times with the liners removed and it made a hell of a mess. The plan is to get some cheap plastic liners and modify them to allow airflow but prevent water from being flung about and if they work, I'll modify the OEM liners. The supercharger isolator followed by the coolant hoses take priority, though.
 
  #50  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:45 AM
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These links, for me anyways, all redirect to advertising for partsites.com, can you check them?
 
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  #51  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:11 AM
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On fender liners: consider a simple louver plate attached to the inner fender liner. Here is an example: https:
//www.gamut.com/p/electrical-enclosure-louver-plate-louver-plate-kit-8-1-4-in-overall-ht-MTkwMDg4?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o 4&scid=scplp655U675&sc_intid=655U675&gclid=CjwKCAj wuvjNBRBPEiwApYq0znBS_d-6M0W1tikeL6TKHdR77_kbCmzghvIejVClQEoVoQvi5G8gDBoCX jUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKj2_dyxrNYCFZR6Ygod xboBxA
 
  #52  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:59 AM
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Thanks Mandrake, but like kj07xk, all I get is redirected to ads....
Maybe screenshot and post the images?

Thanks again.
V
 
  #53  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen and Country View Post
There is a lot more engineering and restrictions that has to go in to modern cars.
There is crash protection, Fuel Economy, Emissions and manufacturing limitations.
So the hose is most likely being routed to other components, there are sensors on it, and you cant use countless materials due to off-gassing in manufacturing.

you have to weigh the good with the bad.
Yes.

There is also time available, an engineering team's result will be size/time/efficiency/talent.

Even a poor engineering team with enough time can make a great result, and the best engineering team on limited time will still leave room for improvement.

One other aspect, each of us may perhaps look at one particular set of components; and wish for a better result from that component. One might wish for tubular or carbon fiber suspension parts, its only a couple thousand. Or tubular exhaust headers, its only a couple thousand.

Add all the possibilities up, and your $100K car becomes a $300K car.

The lower the production number of a vehicle, the harder it is to get a return on engineering time. It makes more sense to have the engineers fine comb the design of a Ford Focus, than it does for them to do the same to a multi hundred thousand ford GT. That engineering cost gets spread against a much larger production batch.

There is a short window for an OEM to design a car, regulations are ever changing and this forces short design cycles to meet them. This can often lead to the year one design being rushed, with a gradual set of improvements following.

I don't really see anything OEM on these cars as "Bad", but I also do not discount that someone spending weeks/months can do a better job than the OEM that might of spent hours/days on the same part.

A reality, is:

*every part is designed/engineered to fail*.

A clamp is needed to hang a 4lb light.

A clamp that fails at 600 lb's is used.

That means that the part was designed to fail. Maybe not at 4lb's, but it is still designed to a fail point(600lb's).

There is also life span vs replacement cost. Once every 10 years at 1/50th the cost or once every 20 years at 50 times the cost? Which is more economical if the downtime is non critical?
 

Last edited by Tervuren; 09-17-2017 at 11:45 AM.
  #54  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
My experience is that the electrical connectors are environmentally sealed and safe for exposure to splash from the tire. I wouldn't submerge them, though. The MAF is inside the intake pipe, so it's already shielded from any water.

That having been said, I've driven in the rain a few times with the liners removed and it made a hell of a mess. The plan is to get some cheap plastic liners and modify them to allow airflow but prevent water from being flung about and if they work, I'll modify the OEM liners. The supercharger isolator followed by the coolant hoses take priority, though.
One idea you might want to do; get insulating exhaust wrap and wrap the headers. This will keep a lot of heat out of the engine bay. I have insulated headers on one of my 944's, and it makes a difference.
 
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:55 AM
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I put louvers on the inner fenders of my Drag Car. I also raised the back of the hood two inches, and a LOT of heat escapes both places. Course, I don't need to worry about water/rain.
 
  #56  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:03 PM
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Louvers were what I had planned... I just don't like revealing all my plans before they're hatched.

Originally Posted by Tervuren View Post
There is also life span vs replacement cost. Once every 10 years at 1/50th the cost or once every 20 years at 50 times the cost? Which is more economical if the downtime is non critical?
Consider too that the engineers most likely said we should do it out of this material for this much, and the budget planners kicked it back with a note saying they want to do it in this other material for this much less. I have no doubt that the engineers want these things to last forever, but their hands are tied.

Your example above makes a strong argument for OEM and against what I'm doing from a financial standpoint and yes, it absolutely would be cheaper to replace with OEM parts. It was something I'd considered initially, but the problem I have with that and which is what's driving this, is that you don't know when these parts are going to fail, that there is no service interval on them, that they take moderate surgery to get to, that they're not visually inspectable, and that they can wipe out a very expensive engine at the drop of a hat. For me, that last point more than justifies whatever these will cost to make.
 
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  #57  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:05 PM
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While I am all for a more permanent solution (metal), if the original pieces last 7-10y (under heat stress conditions of a running engine), would it make sense to purchase the replacement plastic parts now, and save them for the future? Does the 'plastic' degrade with time (outside of the engine, on the shelf)?

I feel doing the metal change would be far more permanent, but another 10y from now is well....

I have already replaced the water pump and the crossover pipe - no problem with the latter, it was prophylactically replaced based on comments in this forum.

Whatdoyouthink?
 
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:15 PM
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Sorry about the bad links, guys. They worked for me last night, but I get redirected today. So here's the part numbers instead.

Overflow/burp hose: C2P13304 I couldn't find a decent picture of the part itself, so here's the parts fische.


Water manifold: C2Z31645


Oil cooler outlet tube: C2Z18658
 
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  #59  
Old 09-17-2017, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wrair View Post
While I am all for a more permanent solution (metal), if the original pieces last 7-10y (under heat stress conditions of a running engine), would it make sense to purchase the replacement plastic parts now, and save them for the future? Does the 'plastic' degrade with time (outside of the engine, on the shelf)?

I feel doing the metal change would be far more permanent, but another 10y from now is well....

I have already replaced the water pump and the crossover pipe - no problem with the latter, it was prophylactically replaced based on comments in this forum.

Whatdoyouthink?
I plan on keeping this car for a very, very long time. I've said this before- I'm not trying to convince anyone to get on board with this. Rather, I'm putting this out there for anyone else that wants these parts while I'm making them for me. I've already explained why I'm doing it, what the thought process and mindset is behind my approach, and if it's not something that makes sense to someone, I take no offense to someone deciding to keep it OEM. I'm not, as they say, quitting my day job to pursue this.
 
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
Your example above makes a strong argument for OEM and against what I'm doing from a financial standpoint and yes, it absolutely would be cheaper to replace with OEM parts. It was something I'd considered initially, but the problem I have with that and which is what's driving this, is that you don't know when these parts are going to fail, that there is no service interval on them, that they take moderate surgery to get to, that they're not visually inspectable, and that they can wipe out a very expensive engine at the drop of a hat. For me, that last point more than justifies whatever these will cost to make.
Something I alluded to but did not emphasize enough - the cost of downtime. A repair on a CNC machine that costs $30, but takes three days for the part to get in is actually a $7230 repair cost if the machine could earn $100 an hour with three eight hour shifts.

I bought an XK to minimize my downtime, it is very important to me not to have to stop and fix my car unless I actually want to as something to enjoy as a hobby. This means I may periodically do work that isn't needed for the fun of it.

From an OEM standpoint, they really want to be in the business of making cars, not selling parts. They will make the longest lasting design that regulation and consumer pocket books will support. Keeping a large parts inventory when they could be making a new car with that space and personal is not where they should have their focus. The less versions of something you have to make the lower your costs. OEM's would rather only make parts for new cars, rather than parts for cars they no longer make.

It is the dealer, or parts supplying vendor that gets to charge labor that is the only motivated party for a failure requiring replacement parts. Interestingly the dashes on the X150 are vendor supplied rather than in house, they are also a part that fails.
 

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