You may "know there is a problem with timing chain stretching" ,but I have not seen anyone quantify the extent of the problem in terms of the number of engines involved.

Is there any evidence that this issue is as extensive as the Nikasil problem? I do not know, do you?

Other possibilities could be associated with chain or tensioner materials or manufacture. Then the use and maintenance of the engine can be a major factor.

None of the references in this thread support the claim that the particles created in GDI engines are "new and different" to those produced in other engines.

The references do support the claim that PDI engines produce more particles than PI engines, but not more than diesel engines.

The development of additive packages for fuels and lubricants is an ongoing process. I have just returned from a 2 week cruise in the Baltic and one of our dinner partners was a senior development chemist with Lubrizol. He did explain to me some of the issues involved with developing and testing of additive packages.

 

Why is timing chain wear test now part of the oil regulations? (writing in lay terms for benefit of wider audience)

Why now, timing chain is not new.

 

Plenty of evidence that the particles are radically different and New. Why do you think we have had to Invent a new type of filtration. We could have simply used what is done in diesel.

If you read all the studies that are out there, I have posted some prior-the particle size and structure is dramatically different, most crucially its below filtration ability of existing technology. i.e. down to 5micron.

It makes sense the particles are different, gasoline is being atomized different and burned at entirely different circumstances than diesel. Thus the vastly better performance than diesel.

 

1.Why not address the issue you have quoted? Just give me a reference which supports YOUR assertion. I might add that you could do the same for the other points you make.

2.What filtration are you talking about? Is it oil or tail pipe emissions, or both?

3.What you write may make sense to you but it does not qualify as fact or science.

4.There are millions of PDI engines out there. I am familiar with Mazda Skyactiv engines and they are not have excess timing chain wear problems. What about other manufacturers?

5. Why not answer the real question: How many 5.0l Jaguar engines have had timing chains replaced due to excessive wear.

 

Extensively discussed on this thread and the core of it-New particulate filter for the exhaust.

According to Oak Ridge Natl Labs "The particles that are released by GDI engines are smaller and more varied in size than diesel particles"

So yes it is new- thats why we need new filtration technology, oil and exhaust, they are one in the same.

I dont know what world you live if you say you have not heard of DI problems. Direct Injection engines are pretty much obsolete. Ford and Toyota have moved away from DI and gone to a hybrid system. The ford f150 which was riddled with timing chain issues now had a hybrid injection system. The 2017 Ford F-150 Gets a New Engine...That Seems Oddly Familiar - The Drive

You say you have never heard of timing chain issues. Here is ford's on their trucks no less! http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/TSb/...dPdf?id=187147

Want to see how prevalent it is, (as if a OEM TSB is not enough) do a goog search or check out this video Ford F150 3.5L Ecoboost Rattle Upon Start Up- Timing Chain Stretch Issues TSB

And here are more consumer gripes about stretched chains on the ford engines. Stretched timing chain? - Page 6

Incidentally Ford makes the JLR 5.0 in question and licenses cam phasers from Jaguar.

The emotional response here has been amazing, all I have asserted is; in the face of all this overwhelming evidence, since we own a boutique engine that will never have a TSB nor Class Action (there is no class), it behooves us to eliminate some soot from our oil. Or not- go knock yourselves out with soot.

 

Your turn Six Rotors, since you leveraged some insight with lubrizol. Why are they mandating timing chain wear test for the first time in the timing chain history?

 

I'm starting to wonder if I should have. Water pumps that fail at ax. 40k miles in some cases. Rear windows that fallout on conv. tops. Chain tensioners in supercharges that fail. Now the question of whether or not the timing chain will grenade the engine if standard maintenance protocol is followed.

 

I find your comments ridiculous because they are off topic and have no factual foundation. Either address the specific issue or don't waste out time.

 

I don't have facts but I do have experience. My 5.0L XKR had to have the timing chaining tensioners replaced and this did not fix the problem. Next step was to replace the timing chain, timing chain tensioners again, and all 4 VVT's which did fix the startup chatter and various unsavory engine noises. I just wanted the noises to go away and they did. That being said I was informed by my Jag techs during that time that "these engines" the jag V8 which was the only engine they had at the beginning of the decade "Eat the Timing Chains". They thought an updated chain had been provided after the MY12 year. Many times when I go over there are XJ's, XF's, and XKR's getting timing chains replaced as well as the ever horrific water pump issue. Im already saving cash to replace the chain and water pump and supercharger again at about 60-70k miles... its bound to happen again and I want to drive this thing over 100,000 miles!!

 

Ive had my 2012 XKR out of Maryland bought used with 10k miles since 9/2013. Since that time ive put 27k-28K more miles on it (approaching 38,000) with the following repairs:
1- Complete supercharger
2- 2 Timing Chain Tensioner Sets (engine dropped twice)
3- 2 Water Pumps (the 2nd time they did it right and replaced the o-ring and pipe)
4- 1 Timing Chain
5- All 4 VVT's - engine dropped a 3rd time to get it back in time
6- A Solenoid and Wiring harness that lost communication due to corrosion.
7- Both headlights due to condensation. The new ones started to condense and the dealership took the car and did something - no more condensation?? They didn't tell me what they did and those techs are now gone.
8- Just about all the rubber seals on both doors and windows. Left side more then Right.
9- Replaced driver side window and Front windshield - my doing of course from rocks and such. Driver side window previous owner scratched up.


So far the only bill to me was Glass and driver side glass, 250 deductible on windshield, and 1/2 the solenoid/corrosion repair... the punks only paid 1/2 the 600 dollar bill on that.... GRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrr


Loth

 

What can I say,you must be a lawyer! Try this:

1.The particle emissions from GDI engines has been known for at least 10 years.
The first standard for such emissions appeared in Euro5 and implemented in 2009.The limit is the same in Euro 6 implemented in 2014. Euro6c refers to a testing protocol which must be implemented 1 Sep2017.

See Commission Directive 2001/116EC of 20 December2001 and Regulation(EC) No715/2007 of the European Parliament and Council of 20 June 2007

2.Regarding the Ford 3.5l Ecoboost Engine, note that Ford's solution is to install a revised timing chain.(From the TSB provided)

3.Regarding Ford's new 3.5l Ecoboost Engine it still has Direct Injection.You may wish to ask Ford if they use port fuel injection to reduce carbon build up on the intake valves(amongst other things).

4.Regarding new oil formulation I refer you to [url=http://www.GF-6.com]
Anyone who believes this is purely to resolve timing chain wear is delusional. It is also obvious that new formulations of oil should have adequate performance testing protocols.

I ask for the umpteenth time HOW MANY 5.0l ENGINES are you talking about?

In the meantime full synthetic oil and change every 5k miles and look out for the new stronger chain when it comes (if it is not here already),and watch out for the carbon build up on the intake valves.

 

Rob,
Its an engineering masterpiece. What revolutionary design does not have its niggles. Besides, even if you have to replace the timing chain at 60k, its about the same price as 30k service on many porsches where you have to drop the engine for basic stuff. And those porsches are less power than you have.

Keep your ear to the ground for the timing chain, watch for leaks and you have a car in Ferrari territory whose annual maintenance cost is the same as the other guys monthly.

the 40 year old 4.2 is just a car-would have robbed year out of your life in mediocrity. (apologies in advance to 4.2 guys-you should be moving up, Jaguar did)

 

You should try to follow the logic and decorum of law yourself. You questioned me categorically and I responded categorically- you must now satisfy my single question.

Why is timing chain wear test going to be part of the oil testing- are timing chains new to autos? And does that acknowledge, 1. timing chain wear is now more of an issue. 2. oil contributes to it.

 

P.S. about how many 5.0 engines affected: MINE which is one too many.

Also, were are not talking about ford problems, you asked me to name one other manufacturer and I did. Lets not move the goal post.

 

Loth,
Its not going to happen again, you can drive it for 100k. Keep the oil clean- screw their oil change recommendations, its not their skin in the game, nor are you some dumbass broke lessor barely making payments. Also do that oil squirt trick on the timing chain if you havent started it in over a week.

Learn to do oil changes its easier than pumping gas, you dont have to get under the car nor get your hands dirty- one can do it in a white tux.

 

I see at least 3 questions even though you only use 1 question mark.

The simple answers are:

1.NO,timing chains have been around forever. Consequently timing chain wear and elongation issues have been around forever.

2.POSSIBLY.but it has always been an issue.

3.YES, lubrication is a contributing factor. Perhaps there are other important factors such as chain design, materials selection, assembly etc

The stated purpose of the Timing Chain-wear Test, as defined by ILSAC, is to effectively measure a lubricants ability to minimize timing chain-wear as it relates to the soot-like material particles produced by GDI engines.

As you may or may not know Lubrizol is actively involved in developing this test. As far as I know at this time they have been unable to come up with a test to accurately accomplish this. The test engine selected for this test is the Ford 2.0l EcoBoost engine. As far as I am aware they have not yet developed an engine dyno test which can accurately and repeatedly reproduce timing chain wear. The lack of repeatability is an issue because it implies that other factors are also involved such as materials,assembly etc


The new GF-6 spec includes 5 other new tests, 4 of which involve using new test engines.

The new Low-speed Pre-ignition Test, LSPI Test, which also uses a Ford 2.0l EcoBoost engine, is not developed. The problem here being the random and unpredictable nature of the phenomenon.


It is also my understanding that implementation of the GF-6 spec has been delayed until 2018.


Now if you go back and read your thread opener you should be able to see why I tried to contribute. If you wish to reject my attempted contribution that's fine..

 

Thank You. We are on the same page and in agreement.

We also inadvertently established how effectively law works. Now that I have heard your specific disagreements to points important to me, I can concede that I am in agreement and derived to my decisions on how to proceed with lubrication strictly due to the ambiguity amoungst experts juxtaposed against my own experience and others.

P.s. I take these expert pen-pushers with a grain of salt, not unlike some I employ, their input must always be balanced with the bigger picture. They have been moronically wrong in the past. When I was a kid, children would point out that all the continents fit together like a big puzzle- they would tell us that we were being silly children; Plate tectonics had not been discovered by academia and textbooks were printed 30 years prior.

 

 

On the contrary, I think I'll use the same strategy as used when selecting an S-type. The 1999-2002 cars had a 4.0 engine. The 4.2 came out in 2003 and in addition to larger displacement and more power, it featured technical improvements addressing all the shortcomings of the 4.0. The 4.2 now has a reputation of being pretty much bulletproof.

If we are to believe that there's a design or manufacturing deficiency with the present 5.0, I'm now pretty much convinced by T&C and others that I would not want one any more than I wanted a 4.0.

I'll wait till Jag produces an revised engine that's as good as the 4.2. Maybe it will be a 5.2?

I'm in no rush.

 

LOL.
By your logic you would be better served with a nice Camry- in your words bulletproof/ foolproof.

But you are right, if you cant handle a $3k expense, you should avoid any ultra-high performance car, including the Lexus LFA.

If one still has to have it because they want the best Jaguar ever made, I have shown you how to double the life from your timing chain and it cost very little.