Finally getting the little details wrapped up on the LS Chevy swap
#41
03-10-2018, 06:00 AM
Hello all, this is Andrew from Jaguar Specialties. I just noticed this thread and wanted to add a few comments if that's ok.
First of all, congratulations to Jagolet on this conversion- it indeed came out very nicely. There's no doubt that the LS is a good fit and a nice option to keep one of these cars on the road as opposed to being junked. For those not aware, 95% of our customers for conversions like this have cars that will either go this way or get junked/sold, even if they are are in nice cosmetic condition.
Here in the US where repair costs of the Jaguar drivetrain have continued to stay astronomical (even though the cars themselves have decreased far in value), an LS drivetrain is a good way to go. And anyone who drives a car like this with LS power will understand in a second why this is a good option. This is not a carbureted small block Chevy- it's a modern, smooth, all aluminum sequential fuel injected V8 with very tractable power and impressive reliability. Again, not trying to convince anyone to do anything, just stating the facts.
Resale? Well, this conversion has been around for about 4 years now (we developed it in 2012) and few of the cars have come up for sale since (like single digits). All I can tell you is from personal experience. About a year + ago, a customer of ours who had done an LS swap on his 97 XK8 had a change of family situation and decided to sell the car. It was a nice convertible with good paint and interior and an LS-automatic conversion done nicely. We helped him sell it and the car went for $12k, which is at least 2x what it would have sold for in stock form. Where we are, a similar standard 97 XK8 would, at best, bring $5-6k here (California) and there are plenty of them for sale, looking for new homes. (As a side note, out here, the broken ones in good cosmetic shape sell mostly in the $750-$1500 range- amazing, no?). Again, that one sale is not a trend, just the only data point I have and it is not an encouragement for anyone to do anything. I thought it was interesting to share.
And I wanted to toss out one technical tidbit. In regards to performance, due to the way we handle the driveline in the LS conversions, we have many other differential options available, including some with limited slip. Rather than live with the stock 3.08 open unit, we can use more aggressive 3.27 and 3.58 units (and a few even numerically higher), some with limited slip and all as a bolt in upgrade with no other mods to the car. (same goes for the LS powered XJ8's using our kit- I have a 99 VDP that has a 3.58 instead of the stock 3.08). These units come from earlier Jag models using very similar rear suspensions- we don't sell the parts, but can direct customers on how to go about making it all happen, and the prices are VERY REASONABLE, in fact, surprisingly so). The point is that there is the potential to realize even greater performance from an engine package of even modest output. But these options are open only to the LS converted cars, not to those with stock drivetrains.
Thanks to all of you for a spirited discussion- we all love these models in one form or another and I am glad we're sharing our experiences in an open and respectful way.
Spring is here and in the next few days I plan to roll my LS1-6 speed manual 98 convertible out of the garage for a run after sitting inside for winter. Always a lot of fun....
All the best
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
First of all, congratulations to Jagolet on this conversion- it indeed came out very nicely. There's no doubt that the LS is a good fit and a nice option to keep one of these cars on the road as opposed to being junked. For those not aware, 95% of our customers for conversions like this have cars that will either go this way or get junked/sold, even if they are are in nice cosmetic condition.
Here in the US where repair costs of the Jaguar drivetrain have continued to stay astronomical (even though the cars themselves have decreased far in value), an LS drivetrain is a good way to go. And anyone who drives a car like this with LS power will understand in a second why this is a good option. This is not a carbureted small block Chevy- it's a modern, smooth, all aluminum sequential fuel injected V8 with very tractable power and impressive reliability. Again, not trying to convince anyone to do anything, just stating the facts.
Resale? Well, this conversion has been around for about 4 years now (we developed it in 2012) and few of the cars have come up for sale since (like single digits). All I can tell you is from personal experience. About a year + ago, a customer of ours who had done an LS swap on his 97 XK8 had a change of family situation and decided to sell the car. It was a nice convertible with good paint and interior and an LS-automatic conversion done nicely. We helped him sell it and the car went for $12k, which is at least 2x what it would have sold for in stock form. Where we are, a similar standard 97 XK8 would, at best, bring $5-6k here (California) and there are plenty of them for sale, looking for new homes. (As a side note, out here, the broken ones in good cosmetic shape sell mostly in the $750-$1500 range- amazing, no?). Again, that one sale is not a trend, just the only data point I have and it is not an encouragement for anyone to do anything. I thought it was interesting to share.
And I wanted to toss out one technical tidbit. In regards to performance, due to the way we handle the driveline in the LS conversions, we have many other differential options available, including some with limited slip. Rather than live with the stock 3.08 open unit, we can use more aggressive 3.27 and 3.58 units (and a few even numerically higher), some with limited slip and all as a bolt in upgrade with no other mods to the car. (same goes for the LS powered XJ8's using our kit- I have a 99 VDP that has a 3.58 instead of the stock 3.08). These units come from earlier Jag models using very similar rear suspensions- we don't sell the parts, but can direct customers on how to go about making it all happen, and the prices are VERY REASONABLE, in fact, surprisingly so). The point is that there is the potential to realize even greater performance from an engine package of even modest output. But these options are open only to the LS converted cars, not to those with stock drivetrains.
Thanks to all of you for a spirited discussion- we all love these models in one form or another and I am glad we're sharing our experiences in an open and respectful way.
Spring is here and in the next few days I plan to roll my LS1-6 speed manual 98 convertible out of the garage for a run after sitting inside for winter. Always a lot of fun....
All the best
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
All well and good. But there is just something I'm still not quite understanding, which I already asked but got no reply so far. If Ford sold the LS and T-bird there with the same engine, how can it be so hard and expensive to find parts and do repairs? Can't you just take the car to a Ford dealership or even Ford indie mechanic? Can't you just get used parts from LS and T-birds? Or new parts from the Ford dealership? Do T-Bird and LS owners have the same problems X100 owners have then? This is the part which is still puzzling me.
Also, it seems to me the drive train is not the big problem with the X100. Once you solve the initial design faults with the earlier cars it seems reliable. I have not been hanging around this forum for very long yet. But so far what I'm noticing is that most threads started to address a problem seem to be more electric, electronic or computer related than engine problems. I would think swapping the engine for a Chevy wouldn't make the ABS and other electronic related problems go away, would it? I'm just not seeing the engine as the weakest link here, sorry. Electronics and even rust seem to be bigger problems, if you need to rank them.
But then again if I'm totally off the mark, I would love to learn why.
#42
03-10-2018, 07:20 AM
Not the same engines.
The Lincoln LS and Ford Thunderbird do not use the same engine as the XK. Ford didn't acquire Jaguar until after this car was built.
Believe me, I would have Ford powered it if I could have, but for this car and with my time and ability constraints the Chevy motor was the answer. There will be a Ford Coyote powered XK though. I can guarantee it.
Believe me, I would have Ford powered it if I could have, but for this car and with my time and ability constraints the Chevy motor was the answer. There will be a Ford Coyote powered XK though. I can guarantee it.
#43
03-10-2018, 08:00 AM
Senior Member
The Lincoln LS and Ford Thunderbird do not use the same engine as the XK. Ford didn't acquire Jaguar until after this car was built.
Believe me, I would have Ford powered it if I could have, but for this car and with my time and ability constraints the Chevy motor was the answer. There will be a Ford Coyote powered XK though. I can guarantee it.
Believe me, I would have Ford powered it if I could have, but for this car and with my time and ability constraints the Chevy motor was the answer. There will be a Ford Coyote powered XK though. I can guarantee it.
#44
03-10-2018, 08:15 AM
Veteran Member
hope that the more knowledgeable will correct if wrong, but Ford did own Jaguar long before this car was built and their suppliers were involved in its production. the great part was that they did not interfere with Jaguar's development and independence. Ford was interested to a degree in learning about this luxury and performance segment and applied to their later models. the AJ engine design did actually get used in the Ford products mentioned, built elsewhere. the performance v6 of both corps is to my knowledge extensively similar in base design.
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#45
03-10-2018, 08:43 AM
Senior Member
#46
03-10-2018, 10:24 AM
Veteran Member
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_AJ-V8_engine
"The AJ-V8 is available in displacements ranging from 3.2 L to 5.0 L, and a supercharged version is also produced. Ford Motor Company used this small V8 in other products as well, including the Lincoln LS the 2002-2005 Ford Thunderbird as well as in several Land Rovers and the Aston Martin V8 Vantage."
"The AJ-V8 is available in displacements ranging from 3.2 L to 5.0 L, and a supercharged version is also produced. Ford Motor Company used this small V8 in other products as well, including the Lincoln LS the 2002-2005 Ford Thunderbird as well as in several Land Rovers and the Aston Martin V8 Vantage."
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#47
03-10-2018, 11:03 AM
Senior Member
#48
03-10-2018, 01:28 PM
Sponsor
That XK8
It's funny that you found that pic. The maroon XK8 in that pic is a 97 coupe owned by a customer of ours down in Florida. He had been a Jag (XJS convert) owner and Corvette (2000 LS1 powered coupe) owner for years when we connected. He liked the LS motor and came across this beautiful 97 coupe that needed mechanical help. With our kit, a spare LS1 (with LS6 cam and other upgrades) he put together the XK8 as you see it.
Fast forward to a year after the build- he sells the Corvette and XJS because neither of them to him is as great a car to drive and enjoy as the XK8.
And now, 4 years or so later, he has basically driven the wheels off that XK8, racking up some 50,000+ trouble free miles- it's his daily driver. He continues to do upgrades on the car and loves it (most recently he was upgrading to Brembo brakes- I wonder why?????)
Attached is a pic of the whole car now that you're already seen the engine.... (small hint there with the LS6 badge on the fender...)
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
Fast forward to a year after the build- he sells the Corvette and XJS because neither of them to him is as great a car to drive and enjoy as the XK8.
And now, 4 years or so later, he has basically driven the wheels off that XK8, racking up some 50,000+ trouble free miles- it's his daily driver. He continues to do upgrades on the car and loves it (most recently he was upgrading to Brembo brakes- I wonder why?????)
Attached is a pic of the whole car now that you're already seen the engine.... (small hint there with the LS6 badge on the fender...)
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
#49
03-10-2018, 04:36 PM
Senior Member
Cut and pasted from the article posted by Paul above and comparing just the two motors. Jag 4.0 vs Ford 3.9 Motor:
Jaguar
The 4.0 L (3996 cc) AJ26 engine was introduced in 1996. The number "26" comes from 12+6+8 (cylinders), because when the first ideas were sketched, a family of 6-, 8- and 12-cylinder engines was contemplated, although only the 8-cylinder version was produced. It has a square 86 mm (3.4 in) bore and stroke. It was updated in 1998 as the AJ27 with continuously variable valve timing. The AJ-V8 was updated again in 2000 as the AJ28. The naturally aspirated version produces 290 hp (216 kW) in the 2000-2002 XK8.
Vehicles using this engine:
AJ26
1997-1998 Jaguar XJ8
1997-1998 Jaguar XK8
1997-1998 Daimler V8
AJ27
1999-2003 Jaguar XJ8
1999-2003 Jaguar XK8
1999-2003 Daimler V8
AJ28
2000-2002 Jaguar S-Type 281 hp (210 kW), 287 lb⋅ft (389 N⋅m)
Ford
The 3.9L (3934 cc) AJ30/AJ35 variant is a unique displacement used only by Ford and Lincoln and is built in Ford's Lima, OH engine plant. Bore is 86 mm (3.4 in) and stroke is 85 mm (3.3 in). The AJ35 version introduced for the 2003 model year added variable valve timing of the intake camshafts and electronic throttle control. While the block, crankshaft, pistons, and connecting rods are all unique to this displacement, many other parts are shared with the AJ-V8 engines produced in the UK by Jaguar.
Vehicles using this engine:
2000-2002 Lincoln LS, 252 hp (188 kW) 267 lb⋅ft (362 N⋅m)
2002 Ford Thunderbird, 252 hp (188 kW) 267 lb⋅ft (362 N⋅m)
2003-2006 Lincoln LS, 280 hp (209 kW) 286 lb⋅ft (388 N⋅m)
2003-2005 Ford Thunderbird, 280 hp (209 kW) 286 lb⋅ft (388 N⋅m)
Ford Forty-Nine concept
The last AJ35 was produced in March 2006 after only 3 years. Total run of AJ30/35 was nearly 250,000 units
Jaguar
The 4.0 L (3996 cc) AJ26 engine was introduced in 1996. The number "26" comes from 12+6+8 (cylinders), because when the first ideas were sketched, a family of 6-, 8- and 12-cylinder engines was contemplated, although only the 8-cylinder version was produced. It has a square 86 mm (3.4 in) bore and stroke. It was updated in 1998 as the AJ27 with continuously variable valve timing. The AJ-V8 was updated again in 2000 as the AJ28. The naturally aspirated version produces 290 hp (216 kW) in the 2000-2002 XK8.
Vehicles using this engine:
AJ26
1997-1998 Jaguar XJ8
1997-1998 Jaguar XK8
1997-1998 Daimler V8
AJ27
1999-2003 Jaguar XJ8
1999-2003 Jaguar XK8
1999-2003 Daimler V8
AJ28
2000-2002 Jaguar S-Type 281 hp (210 kW), 287 lb⋅ft (389 N⋅m)
Ford
The 3.9L (3934 cc) AJ30/AJ35 variant is a unique displacement used only by Ford and Lincoln and is built in Ford's Lima, OH engine plant. Bore is 86 mm (3.4 in) and stroke is 85 mm (3.3 in). The AJ35 version introduced for the 2003 model year added variable valve timing of the intake camshafts and electronic throttle control. While the block, crankshaft, pistons, and connecting rods are all unique to this displacement, many other parts are shared with the AJ-V8 engines produced in the UK by Jaguar.
Vehicles using this engine:
2000-2002 Lincoln LS, 252 hp (188 kW) 267 lb⋅ft (362 N⋅m)
2002 Ford Thunderbird, 252 hp (188 kW) 267 lb⋅ft (362 N⋅m)
2003-2006 Lincoln LS, 280 hp (209 kW) 286 lb⋅ft (388 N⋅m)
2003-2005 Ford Thunderbird, 280 hp (209 kW) 286 lb⋅ft (388 N⋅m)
Ford Forty-Nine concept
The last AJ35 was produced in March 2006 after only 3 years. Total run of AJ30/35 was nearly 250,000 units
Last edited by Scottsgreenjag; 03-10-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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#50
03-10-2018, 06:53 PM
Veteran Member
All well and good. But there is just something I'm still not quite understanding, which I already asked but got no reply so far. If Ford sold the LS and T-bird there with the same engine, how can it be so hard and expensive to find parts and do repairs? Can't you just take the car to a Ford dealership or even Ford indie mechanic? Can't you just get used parts from LS and T-birds? Or new parts from the Ford dealership? Do T-Bird and LS owners have the same problems X100 owners have then? This is the part which is still puzzling me.
Also, it seems to me the drive train is not the big problem with the X100. Once you solve the initial design faults with the earlier cars it seems reliable. I have not been hanging around this forum for very long yet. But so far what I'm noticing is that most threads started to address a problem seem to be more electric, electronic or computer related than engine problems. I would think swapping the engine for a Chevy wouldn't make the ABS and other electronic related problems go away, would it? I'm just not seeing the engine as the weakest link here, sorry. Electronics and even rust seem to be bigger problems, if you need to rank them.
But then again if I'm totally off the mark, I would love to learn why.
Also, it seems to me the drive train is not the big problem with the X100. Once you solve the initial design faults with the earlier cars it seems reliable. I have not been hanging around this forum for very long yet. But so far what I'm noticing is that most threads started to address a problem seem to be more electric, electronic or computer related than engine problems. I would think swapping the engine for a Chevy wouldn't make the ABS and other electronic related problems go away, would it? I'm just not seeing the engine as the weakest link here, sorry. Electronics and even rust seem to be bigger problems, if you need to rank them.
But then again if I'm totally off the mark, I would love to learn why.
Lincoln LS's pretty much have all gone to the junkyard. They might be still driven in the bad parts of the inner cities the US media shows the world, but when they break there, they go to the junkyard there. When I go to the junkyards in the bad parts of Dallas (my battery was stolen last summer while I was in the junkyard), I trip over LS's with bad tint jobs and vanilla airfresheners.
T-birds are "girls cars" and don't have an enthusiast following like an XK8/R. Girls in the US are used to paying people $4000-8000 to fix there cars when they run it without oil or back into something. It's what they do. If it was a "guys car" there would be a motor swap kit for that, too.
MX-5 Miatas are the perfect example of a "girls car" that became a "guys car" when 302 Fords were swapped in them back in 1991 to make Monster Miatas. My dad has a 2005 Chrysler Crossfire roadster (girl's car) that he swapped in a Supercharged AMG 5.5 V8. Now it is a proper guy's car.
Guys that drive 20+ year old cars don't take their $5,000 cars to a guy that charges $4,000- $8,000 to fix it and look for alternatives when they find a cool car on Craigslist that a girl has run without oil.
The 4th gen Camaro/Firebird that originally housed the LS1 Motors are awful cars. The ergonomics are bad, they are made out of plastic and T-tops were almost mandatory which make the chassis flexy while dumping rain in your lap. They were fast, and motors and transmission are good, however and the parts that make make modern Corvettes and Camaros so fast, bolt on to the older versions.
An LS swap in America is like a Lowrider thing, a Donk thing, or a Jeep thing or a VW Microbus thing or pretty much any "old car" thing.
Many times it's hard for someone on the outside to figure these "Things" out, but the people on the inside understand them.
#52
03-10-2018, 09:35 PM
Veteran Member
An LS3 should work work fine as the external dimensions are the same as the LS1
#53
03-10-2018, 09:44 PM
That seems more appealing than the LS1. I have an XKR so if it came to it I'd be much more interested in the LS3 or LSA...!
#54
03-11-2018, 12:08 AM
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#55
03-11-2018, 01:04 PM
Veteran Member
Personally I wouldn't do it. If I didn't have the $$$ for a proper Jaguar engine I'd park the car and start saving up. There are still plenty of e types running around that have the dubious distinction of the "lump" moniker. I didn't like it on them and still don't.
Z
Z
Have you tried to change the trans fluid in a '97 XK8?
This should be a 25 minute job. Try it. By the end of the day with burned hands and zero patience left, you'll want to rip the motor and trans out right then.
#57
03-12-2018, 10:45 PM
Veteran Member
Good thing modern cars almost never need the spark plugs changed.
#58
04-03-2018, 06:59 AM
It's funny that you found that pic. The maroon XK8 in that pic is a 97 coupe owned by a customer of ours down in Florida. He had been a Jag (XJS convert) owner and Corvette (2000 LS1 powered coupe) owner for years when we connected. He liked the LS motor and came across this beautiful 97 coupe that needed mechanical help. With our kit, a spare LS1 (with LS6 cam and other upgrades) he put together the XK8 as you see it.
Fast forward to a year after the build- he sells the Corvette and XJS because neither of them to him is as great a car to drive and enjoy as the XK8.
And now, 4 years or so later, he has basically driven the wheels off that XK8, racking up some 50,000+ trouble free miles- it's his daily driver. He continues to do upgrades on the car and loves it (most recently he was upgrading to Brembo brakes- I wonder why?????)
Attached is a pic of the whole car now that you're already seen the engine.... (small hint there with the LS6 badge on the fender...)
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
Fast forward to a year after the build- he sells the Corvette and XJS because neither of them to him is as great a car to drive and enjoy as the XK8.
And now, 4 years or so later, he has basically driven the wheels off that XK8, racking up some 50,000+ trouble free miles- it's his daily driver. He continues to do upgrades on the car and loves it (most recently he was upgrading to Brembo brakes- I wonder why?????)
Attached is a pic of the whole car now that you're already seen the engine.... (small hint there with the LS6 badge on the fender...)
Andrew
Jaguar Specialties
Well, more funny to me is that he stuck the word Jaguar on top of a Chevy engine. Why do that?
But my main question is still being missed, ignored, avoided or what have you. Does the swap correct the bigger problems with these cars, which is all the electronics and computer related stuff? Like false warnings, faulty sensors, broken electronic stuff and all the stuff which people are constantly asking for help around here? That seems to be the weak link with the X100. Not the engine.
#59
04-03-2018, 10:49 AM
Totally forgot about this thread.
Well, more funny to me is that he stuck the word Jaguar on top of a Chevy engine. Why do that?
But my main question is still being missed, ignored, avoided or what have you. Does the swap correct the bigger problems with these cars, which is all the electronics and computer related stuff? Like false warnings, faulty sensors, broken electronic stuff and all the stuff which people are constantly asking for help around here? That seems to be the weak link with the X100. Not the engine.
Well, more funny to me is that he stuck the word Jaguar on top of a Chevy engine. Why do that?
But my main question is still being missed, ignored, avoided or what have you. Does the swap correct the bigger problems with these cars, which is all the electronics and computer related stuff? Like false warnings, faulty sensors, broken electronic stuff and all the stuff which people are constantly asking for help around here? That seems to be the weak link with the X100. Not the engine.
Right now there are 500 people viewing this forum, of which around 50 are registered members. That leaves around 89,564 Jaguar X100 owners who are not reading or posting about their cars breaking down.
You really need to go out and buy one of these cars rather than just reading about them.
#60
04-03-2018, 12:54 PM
Veteran Member
The same reason the Toyota Camry engine in an Evora says "Lotus"
It makes the swap look more factory, more finished.
LS1's are pretty ugly motors and need something covering the exposed coilpacks. Factory options are "Corvette" or "GTO".
Last edited by Ungn; 04-03-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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