I parked my 2006 XKR for the winter and removed the battery. The large battery has been on and off a tender for the cold spell and registered 100% & 13.5V when I planted it back in. Meter said 13.58V without cables but it dropped to 13.08V when hooked up. Not the best voltage but it is still cold out. Turned the key and waited while all the dash lights flashed on and disappeared, then, with a twist of the wrist, nothing. More attempts, nothing. Slipped it into neutral (note, brake light switch circuit working) but still nothing.
Working on Jag electronics can be like peeling an onion, one layer after another to investigate and every slice can make you cry!
Next day I plugged in an OBDII Bluetooth tester, but it wouldn’t communicate with ECU. Traded big battery for newer, smaller Honda battery and it paired with my phone. Fuel pump showed 70PSI and other sensors gave readings. NO CODES, so it seems the ECU is functioning and didn’t reject the key. I’ve started and run Jags on small batteries before but still it wouldn’t even try cranking. I strapped on another large battery to the small one but still no crank. Hooked jumpers to running van to show nearly 14V but nada. Pulled out the big guns, the original, large battery plus roll-around charger onto the false bulkhead stud and it showed 14.4V but still no rolling over. I fired up an XK8 the other day so I think I’ll swap that large battery in just for luck.
The next layer proved the starter and solenoid function… pulled relay and jumpered the socket and it rolled over, slowly. Rats, large battery has seen better days. Another large battery spun the engine rapidly, but after trading in a few good relays into the starter socket, it never cranked via key. I’d hoped with the ignition on and fuel pressure, it might have fired up, but no such luck. I doubt the ECU goes along with such radical procedures.
I checked most all fuses but it was tucked into a corner prohibiting access to many. I’ll check the rest but I doubt there’ll be any startling discoveries.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but a bad brake light switch would prevent shifting out of park, mess with the brake lights and electronic dampers, but not prevent the engine from cranking. I've stepped on the brake when rolling the key but I do not recall if the brake needs to be depressed or not. I think I've reached in the window and fired it up while doing maintenance.
The inertia switch would prevent the fuel pump from charging the fuel rails, so that’s not suspect.
I’ve been through ignition key issues before but can’t recall if it throws a code every failure and I don’t recall a “key” light coming on as other cars do. Am I wrong to rule out immobilizer if the ECU calls for fuel?
My 2002 XKR is doing the same thing. Haven't tried the fixes you have yet, but topped up the battery and still nothing. Er, everything, except the turn over. Other issues (non-Jaguar) currently more urgent, so will eagerly watch for your resolution. Sorry I have nothing to offer right now but rapt attention.
Unfortunately, it is still cold here, wife's got the flu and the XKR sits at our business. Your XKR has the Mercedes trans and 4.0l engine while mine has the 6 speed ZF and 4.2l V8. There's Youtube videos showing the 5 speed ZF roller shifter but scant information on our shifters.
Jaguar-XK-2003 Service Manual is he closest document to my '06 XKR. It provides the following:
System Diagnostics
Engine Fails To Crank
• The most regular occurrence for failing to crank is due to the Park & Neutral start
switches, that is, gearshift not in Park or Neutral. The starter relay configuration is as
follows: low side of relay coil - switched directly from ECM (if conditions correct) high
side of relay coil - direct from transmission P/N position.
• Other likely causes maybe that the CAN / SCP network is malfunctioning, i.e., the CAN
circuit is open/short. This would mean that the IC/ECM or IC/BPM would be unable to
communicate resulting in no authentication being performed to enable the ECM.
• Transponder key may not be programmed, or the KTM has not been taken out of build
mode etc.
I've searched for hours and can't find answers to numerous questions. Like the ECM reads the dual slide switch dual slide switch and identifies shifter position, but is it the electronic SCP signal that determines Park and Nuetral before it permits starting? The switch has no contact for P, so are there microswitches for P & N like older ZFx? There is a sentence stating the ECM directly engages the relay and the solenoid current passes through Park/Neutral?! There's no Neutral limit switch shown in the wiring diagram. There is a "NOT IN PARK" switch to the BCM but no information documented on it. The immobilizer prohibits the fuel pump BUT, does turning the switch to the run position prime the fuel rails or not? OBD tester says I get fuel pressure so did the immobilizer enable the system or not? The ECM reads the slide switch and lights the individual LEDs at the shifter but with 3 Jags, I don't ever recall seeing any LEDs light up. There is a "selector switch" referred to, but not illustrated in the wiring diagram; no explanation, so I'm guessing it is the limit switch for the J gate.
When I get back to it, first thing I'll look for will be the LEDs in the console to look for proof the ECM is communicating. I may use 12V LEDs to track voltage starting at ignition switch, ECM, BPM, transmission and starter relay. I've already jumpered the relay and know the starter and solenoid are good.
I don't know for certain, but since the X350 uses the same 4.2L engine and ZF 6HP26 transmission, the X350 Workshop Manual may be relevant to your car. See the section on PATS and "Engine Fails to Crank" beginning on pdf page 704 of the Electrical section of the manual, which you can download here:
Don,
Thanks for the X350 Workshop Manual. I've scored a lot of helpful documents from this BBS and some reference chapter 418:00 but didn't provide it. Your manual has it.
I don't believe my issue is related to the immobilizer as it does not throw a code. it is more than likely in the nuetral/park signal from the shifter but there's insufficient documentation on that subject on it and the wiring diagram if too vague for deriving the circuitry.
I've had more than my share of immobilizer woes and just shelled out $1,400 for 9 spares for some of our cars. I just cut some blanks for a Honda with a dremel tool and programmed them with a cheap SBB programmer, but that programmer usually don't work on most vehicles. While skimming your manual, I was reminded some Jags can input a chip ID from new key via the ignition switch, so I'll see if I can do another key for my XKR before I lose one of my two keys.
To quote the great philosopher from Ann Arbor, Bob Seger “working on mysteries without any clues” (Night Moves). Our shop's about 2 miles from his original studio where he recorded that song. Every time I try something new, more mysteries. I did start it one time today, with a key without the chip. Explain that.
I can condense many hours of detective work into a 5 minute procedure to eliminate most of the unknowns in a NO CRANK scenario, armed nothing more than with a voltmeter (or LED in my case) and a foot long piece of electrical wire. I like to attach a battery charger to insure decent voltage while performing experiments but that's optional- hate to have false flags just from low voltage.
1. Turn key on and run the shifter through the range and see if the LEDs in the shifter surround follow the shifter. If so, chances are good the CAN bus is working.
2. Remove key and pop the hood release. Remove the starter relay and swap it with another relay. Some select a fog light relay so a corrupt starter relay won’t throw a wrench into the works with a different problem plus testing the fog lights will validate the starter solenoid’s integrity. Try starting with substitute solenoid.
3. Remove the solenoid and use the wire to apply voltage from the false bulkhead power terminal to the terminal 5 of the relay socket.* Terminal numbers are not visible in the socket but can be read from the bottom of the relay. This will conduct a tiny current to actuate the starter solenoid and roll the engine over. If engine cranks, then the starter, solenoid and wiring are working.
* Some may prefer to stick a paperclip between socket terminals 3 & 5, but a wire is quicker to disconnect for me.
4. Use the voltmeter to terminal pin 3 in the socket and verify it has 12 volts. It is hot at all times and should provide a reading as it is just wired to the battery.
5. Turn the key on with shifter in Park. Measure socket terminal 1 for voltage. 12V indicates the park/neutral signal is there. Shift to Reverse and voltage should disappear. Shift to Neutral and voltage should reappear and thus eliminate the Transmission Control Module from the list of suspects. (I connect the LED with long wires and stick it under the windshield wiper so I can view the response from the driver's seat and not have to get in & out so often.
This should narrow the focus down to the Engine Control Module (ECM) is not grounding the starter solenoid. The ECM is not necessarily to blame as it receives the Engine Start Request from the Body Control Module (BCM) that waits for it’s signals from the ignition switch and the Key Transponder Module (KTM). The KTM is paying attention to the reader/exciter coil in the steering column that calls to the key chip and waits for a good answer back. The ECM also communicates with the body control module via instrument cluster for "security." So the list of suspects starts with the chipped key, inside a functional ignition switch, talking to the reader/exciter coil attached to key transponder module, whispering to the body control module that communicates via CAN bus through the major instrument cluster to the engine control module and when all are happy, the engine control module tickles the starter solenoid, injects fuel and fires spark plugs. It is that simple.
My XKR showed up with a valet key only, dead battery, valet mode engaged, partially burned up wiring harness in the trunk and quarter inch of slop in passenger side front suspension. “Baptism by fire” for my introduction to Jaguars. My trusty locksmith for decades quit doing cars due to immobilizers and current keyman didn’t do tibbe keys or Jags. Nobody would touch a Chryselr/Mercedes Crossfire and dealer wanted $850 apiece for keys that were unavailable. I dug out the 13 chip from the valet key and tried in vain to plant it in the steering column but the ring wouldn’t fall for that trick. The valet key had to do for a few years until recently when a keyman said he could do Jags & Crossfires. Last fall, I wound up with another 5 keys for the 3 Jags and spares for the Crossfire to the tune of $1400. He had a hard time with the XKR but finally succeeded. I drove it once and parked it for the winter and now, a few months later, it refuses to crank. The two new keys weren’t getting it so I pulled out the original valet key and discovered the chip disappeared back when it was copied. It was sort of a blessing in disguise as I wanted to test the ignition to see if a bogus key would generate a fault. Tried the chipless key and then checked the cell phone OBD program but, as usual, it said there were no stored codes. Why are there no codes? I turned the key one more time, it fired right up! I drove it around until it warmed up and then parked it for the summer. None of the keys get it to crank now and still no codes. Immobilizers have cost me dearly over the past decade, time and money wise.
FWIW, our key/immobilizer setup was fully cracked/reverse engineered a few years back, there are no secrets left.
For us specifically, physical locks need tibbe keys. While few locksmiths have the proper attachment to their key cutting machines, there are several online vendors that provide these keys at a very fair price, based on a good quality picture of an existing key.
For the crypto chip, you need a megamos id 13 for a pre 2001, or a megamos id 48 for 2001 forward. The chip itself is generally cheap and available (check eBay).
For "programming" the chip to the car, you either need a scanner capable of it (Foxwell, probably others too) or IDS/SDD on a laptop with the USB cable.
FWIW, I am not sure that any of the crypto failures would show as standard OBDII codes. IOW, you likely need a JLR scanner to see them.
So my car was driving great last night parked it and went to go start it up today and wont turn over noting no lights cold...
any indication of what it could be?
just got a new battery...'
ive had a lot going on with the cr lately
replaced the fuel pump now my gas gauge doesnt work properly
ran out of Gas a few nights ago
also my radio wasnt working so replaced the battery
just a week ago that seemed to reset everything
my mechanic is going to come by tomorrow to look at it
im probaly going to end up getting rid of this car.
To quote the great philosopher from Ann Arbor, Bob Seger “working on mysteries without any clues” (Night Moves). Our shop's about 2 miles from his original studio where he recorded that song. Every time I try something new, more mysteries. I did start it one time today, with a key without the chip. Explain that.
I can condense many hours of detective work into a 5 minute procedure to eliminate most of the unknowns in a NO CRANK scenario, armed nothing more than with a voltmeter (or LED in my case) and a foot long piece of electrical wire. I like to attach a battery charger to insure decent voltage while performing experiments but that's optional- hate to have false flags just from low voltage.
1. Turn key on and run the shifter through the range and see if the LEDs in the shifter surround follow the shifter. If so, chances are good the CAN bus is working.
2. Remove key and pop the hood release. Remove the starter relay and swap it with another relay. Some select a fog light relay so a corrupt starter relay won’t throw a wrench into the works with a different problem plus testing the fog lights will validate the starter solenoid’s integrity. Try starting with substitute solenoid.
3. Remove the solenoid and use the wire to apply voltage from the false bulkhead power terminal to the terminal 5 of the relay socket.* Terminal numbers are not visible in the socket but can be read from the bottom of the relay. This will conduct a tiny current to actuate the starter solenoid and roll the engine over. If engine cranks, then the starter, solenoid and wiring are working.
* Some may prefer to stick a paperclip between socket terminals 3 & 5, but a wire is quicker to disconnect for me.
4. Use the voltmeter to terminal pin 3 in the socket and verify it has 12 volts. It is hot at all times and should provide a reading as it is just wired to the battery.
5. Turn the key on with shifter in Park. Measure socket terminal 1 for voltage. 12V indicates the park/neutral signal is there. Shift to Reverse and voltage should disappear. Shift to Neutral and voltage should reappear and thus eliminate the Transmission Control Module from the list of suspects. (I connect the LED with long wires and stick it under the windshield wiper so I can view the response from the driver's seat and not have to get in & out so often.
This should narrow the focus down to the Engine Control Module (ECM) is not grounding the starter solenoid. The ECM is not necessarily to blame as it receives the Engine Start Request from the Body Control Module (BCM) that waits for it’s signals from the ignition switch and the Key Transponder Module (KTM). The KTM is paying attention to the reader/exciter coil in the steering column that calls to the key chip and waits for a good answer back. The ECM also communicates with the body control module via instrument cluster for "security." So the list of suspects starts with the chipped key, inside a functional ignition switch, talking to the reader/exciter coil attached to key transponder module, whispering to the body control module that communicates via CAN bus through the major instrument cluster to the engine control module and when all are happy, the engine control module tickles the starter solenoid, injects fuel and fires spark plugs. It is that simple.
My XKR showed up with a valet key only, dead battery, valet mode engaged, partially burned up wiring harness in the trunk and quarter inch of slop in passenger side front suspension. “Baptism by fire” for my introduction to Jaguars. My trusty locksmith for decades quit doing cars due to immobilizers and current keyman didn’t do tibbe keys or Jags. Nobody would touch a Chryselr/Mercedes Crossfire and dealer wanted $850 apiece for keys that were unavailable. I dug out the 13 chip from the valet key and tried in vain to plant it in the steering column but the ring wouldn’t fall for that trick. The valet key had to do for a few years until recently when a keyman said he could do Jags & Crossfires. Last fall, I wound up with another 5 keys for the 3 Jags and spares for the Crossfire to the tune of $1400. He had a hard time with the XKR but finally succeeded. I drove it once and parked it for the winter and now, a few months later, it refuses to crank. The two new keys weren’t getting it so I pulled out the original valet key and discovered the chip disappeared back when it was copied. It was sort of a blessing in disguise as I wanted to test the ignition to see if a bogus key would generate a fault. Tried the chipless key and then checked the cell phone OBD program but, as usual, it said there were no stored codes. Why are there no codes? I turned the key one more time, it fired right up! I drove it around until it warmed up and then parked it for the summer. None of the keys get it to crank now and still no codes. Immobilizers have cost me dearly over the past decade, time and money wise.
If you turn the key to the ON position and force/jump the starter relay, will the car start?
That was one of the first things I tried. Ignition on and jumper starter solenoid- rolled over with no fire.
As I mentioned, it started for me one time when I used my valet key with no chip. I wanted to turn the ignition on with a known bad key to see if I get any reaction but nothing, no codes and no alarm.. Forgot I left valet key chip and other pieces in the coin tray while experimenting last year, so the valet key is still a viable key. Chip for 2006 is a Megamos 48, not 13.
At this point, I'm trying to track down the module that killed SCP + at pin 2 on the Data Link Connector. While checking out the seat modules, I'm taking a moment to repair the driver's seat module circuit board and broken case.
I feel like this dance is the two step, one step forward and then one step backwards, repeat...
Armed with a voltmeter and a weak grasp of SCP network, I measured near zero on data link connector pin 2, the SCP (+) side and near 5V on the pin 10, SCP (-) and jumped to the conclusion there was a problem on pin 2. After digging deeper, pin 2 sits at 0V and goes high to 5V for data while pin 10 sits at 5V and goes low.
Since my oscilloscopes have died over the decades, I made a quick cell phone oscilloscope out of ear buds + 2 resistors and stick pins. ...viewed good signals running on the SCP, CAN & serial.
On a brighter note, the drivers seat module circuit board is repaired and, like Lazarus rising from the dead, the seat back ascended from its prone position. With seat & head restraint modules unplugged, still no crank. Didn't expect a mini miracle, just going down the check list. from ear buds/microphone to oscilloscope with 2 resistors an two pins. tapping into data link connector with OBD2 splitter chatter on the networks
No-crank SOLVED! There was nothing at all wrong with the car. Finally put the hints together and found out I got scammed by a flim-flam key man. I paid for 5 keys cut (my own key shells, two for 97, one for ‘99 and two for ‘06) , chipped and programmed. That was over $1400 - 9 keys for 5 cars in total. I informed him there was likely no chip in the ‘97 keys but he said there was. Also informed him the only ‘06 key, the valet key, was already cut open and the chip planted on the immobilizer ring but it wasn’t reliable on these cars to trick the immobilzer and I wanted two regular backup keys for it anyway. He tried programming the XKR over and over again, then finished saying it was a problem but it took.
I fired up the XKR only one time afterwards and moved it a few miles to park it for the winter. After snow disappeared, I had to move it, but no crank. I tried both of my new keys and nothing. I pulled out the valet key and noticed the chip was missing and thought maybe it fell out. That should’ve been the first hint. Tried using the valet key without the chip to set off the antitheft alarm, but it didn’t. By all rights it should’ve made a racket as it had chirped when the door was locked. Turned the valet key one more time and the engine fired up. That made no sense and should’ve been hint #2. I’ve probably spent a hundred hours tearing the car apart, checking & repairing everything suspicious. At one point, I’d checked out the immobilizers in the ‘97 & ‘99 to compare responses with a cheap little LED/coil test ring. The ‘99 blinked just like the ‘06 when the key was turned from off to accessories. The ‘97 never blinked which confirmed there’s no immobilizer. Popped open on of the new ‘97 keys and there was no chip. He lied to me about inserting chips in them. That should’ve been hint #3. I’d discovered some Megamos chips and key parts in the coin receptacle. I’d been dealing with Megamos 13 chips on a Honda and the older Jags so it wasn’t hard to imagine there were some extra glass chips floating around. I didn’t remember leaving them there. Key man and myself were the only ones who would’ve handled the keys. That should’ve been hint #4. Out of curiosity, last night I popped one of the new XKR keys apart to compare that chip with the ‘99’s chip… low and behold, there was no chip in it. I couldn’t remember ever dissecting an XKR key and I either forgot about it or it never had a chip. Now THAT was a hint that couldn’t be ignored. When I got to the shop today, I opened the other new ‘06 key and there was nothing inside. BIG hint. I pretty much knew what was going on. When I removed the steering column cover, there was the missing chip from the valet key jammed into the immobilizer ring. I got bamboozled by the key guy! I told him that trick was not reliable but that was his quick patch job to take the money and run. And to think, I was the one who carved up the valet key making it all possible.
I’m waiting for a cheap Mongoose cable clone on a slow boat from China, but I’m done with key programmers on the XKR. I’m going to remove the immobilizer ring, tape the chip in the center and tuck it away where it is safe and sound. note the valet key Megamos 48 chip JAMMED between ignition cylinder and immobilizer ring original valet key with the only programmed chip
Thank you very much for your offer, that is very generous. But my mystery is solved. I'm looking forward to playing with the Mongoose look-alike for educational, not desparational purposes.
Thank you very much for your offer, that is very generous. But my mystery is solved. I'm looking forward to playing with the Mongoose look-alike for educational, not desparational purposes.
ah got ya
if you want to get the extra keys the scammer made you working conventionally instead of your delete method just contact me and i’ll send it out.
Now that you have all these chewed up key handles, you might want to move to a flip key like the S-Type. In short, you use the flip key body as a remote (2001 and later cars), mount the existing key stem to the flip mechanism (basic sawing/filing required, nothing sophisticated) and mount the crypto chip if needed.
