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You could follow his recipe with a very street legal 5.0 X150. It's the engine that's the point here.
You first Mr. Moneybags. Does a 5.0L even fit in an X100? Has anyone done this swap?
Stop living in an internet dream world, where $200K, factory sponsored race cars = street cars.
Whats funny about the article is the Stock XKR is faster than the "525 HP" race car from 80 to 130 "by a full second". Having run at nearly 20 standing mile events, I know its the wing... but still, oops.
That would be a really bad assumption on your part. The LS motors are way more compact than any DOHC V8. Not even close.
AJ33 is DOHC too. Only way to know for sure is to measure the dimensions of both 4.2 and 5.0L.
Pushrod engine in a modern high performance GT car? The Jaguar XK engine had DOHC in the late 1940's. This is a more specific reason why I say these engines are not appropriate in this caliber of car.
That someone could follow the recipe of a unlimited budget race car and build a street motor with that recipe?
That somebody could follow just what they did with the engine, not the rest of the car. Thereby making your $200k number nothing more than hyperbole.
Just to clarify one thing- -almost 100% of the XK8 customers we have come to us with a car that is already broken, and virtually none of them (whether they have owned the car for 5 minutes or 5 years) are at all interested in sticking with the Jag drivetrain. The prospects for the car are one of the following - either it gets converted or sold for scrap.
No one is pulling apart a good running/driving car to do the conversion, so the end result is the process keeps another XK8 on the road vs going to the crusher. That's the reality.
And to follow up on a previous post of mine, below are pics of another converted 1997 XK8, built by Eurosport Auto in Cumming Ga ( a shop outside of Atlanta) . This one runs a slightly modified 5.3L LS and 4L60E transmission, and is actually the fourth XK8/XJ8 LS conversion they have done (including one XK8 LS-6 speed manual). It came to Eurosport in broken form, was converted, and sold to a customer in June 2018. BTW, before you poo-poo this drivetrain as hardly worth the effort, packages like this, properly tuned, are putting out a solid 340-350hp AT THE REAR WHEELS. That's not a typo. There is a huge amount of potential locked up in the LS truck engines so they offer HUGE bang for the buck And that doesn't even touch on their reliability....
This one sold for higher teens just as you see it- the new owner has stayed in touch with me and just LOVES the car. The irony is that both the shop owner and this customer are English....
Just to clarify one thing- -almost 100% of the XK8 customers we have come to us with a car that is already broken, and virtually none of them (whether they have owned the car for 5 minutes or 5 years) are at all interested in sticking with the Jag drivetrain. The prospects for the car are one of the following - either it gets converted or sold for scrap.
No one is pulling apart a good running/driving car to do the conversion, so the end result is the process keeps another XK8 on the road vs going to the crusher. That's the reality.
I get it, your livelihood is contingent upon pushing your conversions. I don't make a penny defending originality on a Jaguar forum of all places. There was a third option that your customers already discarded or did not even know about.
Why all the pushing and shoving? At the end of the day it is completely up to the vehicle owner to decide what choice to make regarding his/her engine and drivetrain. Our Jaguar/Ford-period XK8/XKR models are not and probably never will be museum pieces with astronomical value. If broken examples can be made more performance-oriented as well as more reliable and economically maintainable with an LS swap and that is what you want to do, then go for it....
AJ16er. I have spent many many long hours looking into different engine that can be swapped into Jaguars. (My original interest was S-types. I did a study a year+ ago on if I could put in a 5.0L Jaguar engine into one of my STRs. It would be great to have an 8 speed behind the 5.0 engine. The drive-train can be made to physically fit, but the electrical systems becomes a nightmare. As has been discussed on the forum in other threads, The new Jaguars are highly integrated with their electronics. No one has hacked the ECMs, BCMs and other control modules to make a 5.0 swap-able into another car. There just isn't a market for this! This means you have to purchase an aftermarket ECM to run the engine. Then you lose much of the functionality of the rest of the car's electrical. If you use one of the many great aftermarket controllers, then you have to spend countless hours learning how to set up the controller to work on the engine. (Or if you have the money pay someone who can set up the controller.) (On Deuce 2000s recent rebuild, he had the shop use and aftermarket controller. - He hasn't commented yet on what works in his instrument cluster.) Having to use a stand alone ECM will add $3 to $5K onto your swap. OTOH, The LSx series engines have all the ECM control already available either from the factory or aftermarket suppliers. (The very expensive GT350 engines are still to new and don't have pre-tuned aftermarket controller options.)
Above being written, Note that Andrew's conversions work well with LS1 and perhaps LS2 engines, because he created an interface kit that lets these engines communicate seamlessly with the X100's electrical. I put a 2010 LS3 engine into one of my S-Types years ago, became stuck on the modern GM electrical conversion/interface to the jaguar electrical, so I put the project on hold. Haven't touched the project in years. (Mainly due to a job change and move, then the complete remodel of my house that I have been doing all on my own.)
From my perspective, one can swap in almost any engine/trans combination you want into any car, The older the car the easier its is, the newer the car, (CAN based) The more difficult and expensive it becomes.
As an example, the 5.0 has variable valve cams for both the inlet and exhaust cams. Using an aftermarket controller, you will have to learn and understand all the advance/retard tables and program this into the controller. Plus, I don't know any aftermarket controllers that are street legal in the "Smog states" Passing emissions is a big deal in many countries and states here in the US. Another plus for a Chevy LSx conversion. One can readily set up the engine/control system to pass emission and hardware tests. (Lets see you do that with a 5.0L engine in a X100...)
If you follow logic, The best option to get more performance out of a tired old XK8 is to put in a LSx swap. If you are a purist and want a stock ho-hum car, get the 4.0 rebuilt.
Last edited by Tijoe; 05-05-2019 at 10:06 AM.
Reason: add word
That somebody could follow just what they did with the engine, not the rest of the car. Thereby making your $200k number nothing more than hyperbole.
Read the R&T article closer. The NA 5.0L motor in the article is an ITB, custom Race crank, Dry sump race motor with no low end, no accessories, no emissions controls and an 8,000 RPM HP peak.
A motor like that would be $30K minimum and would be a dog in an X100. Do you know where one could get 4.30:1 gears for a X100 so the car would not get beat by a Camry to 60 mph?
I get it, your livelihood is contingent upon pushing your conversions. .
No one is pushing anything here.
That's where you maybe have missed the point of this whole thread. It was not started to convince anyone to do anything. Instead, it was just a sharing exercise for info on a topic the forum maybe knows little about and perhaps some readers may find interesting, regardless of whether they are about to pull the Jag engine out, now or ever.. Now they can see some of the cars, understand what's involved, and do what they want. With all due respect, I'm not sure what great service you are doing for the forum here by trashing the option altogether, and repeatedly. What purpose does it serve???
Have you ever had the opportunity to see and ride in one of these cars in person? If not, truly, any conclusion you come to is from just reading what others have written, and is really just supposition. The originator of this thread, by the way, not committed entirely one way or the other, actually took the time to drop in and see the genuine article first hand. There is someone, and others also with first hand experience, who can come to an informed conclusion, in my opinion.
used to go to car shows. we would see perfectly restored specimens parked right next to modified and customized of the same make and model. there was a tremendous amount of pleasant exchange, admiration and mutual assistance among all. even among the Corvette guys who had a reputation for wanting to tar and feather any person who dared to change some paint over-spray or not use some part that would oxidize in about three minutes. there were also the survivor specimen presenters such as my family. interestingly there was healthy debate as to whether the restoration crowd went too far or if better than factory was a true restoration. how does one award best paint in the restoration class to a base coat, clear coat when the original was essentially a single stage application of different chemistry. yet, no one did or felt anything other than admiration of each person's hobby.
in another thread we discussed that these cars have an almost resto-mod feel to them which is a major part of the appeal. would it not seem logical that the ownership group would continue this? Jaguar was targeting in two ways. the car evokes one of their most beautiful designs capturing modern and classic in a timeless shape with excellent practical design. it is also meant to feel like a "banker's Camaro," a sixties car modernized. they knew whom they were targeting. as someone who grew up in a sixties car, this car reminds of the same in a very good way. if we had a non-special version of the sixties car that we owned with perhaps the regular 326 engine, there is no doubt that the car would have modern subframe and control arms front, an IRS conversion rear, different cam, custom computerized fuel injection with catalytic converters, etc. would not do the LS motor; after all it was a Pontiac engine with a particular feel. just would make it better and with a good transmission.
BTW in stock form our cars are not ho-humm. a lot of the reviewers got it wrong with their criticisms of the car. a GT cannot be a sports car, neither the other way.
Last edited by CorStevens; 05-06-2019 at 06:36 AM.
Reason: typo
BTW in stock form our cars are not ho-humm. a lot of the reviewers got it wrong with their criticisms of the car. a GT cannot be a sports car, neither the other way.
Anyone that makes the claim that 290hp is underpowered or ho-hum needs to drive a Fiat 126p. It was the 26hp commie Porsche 911.
I remember reading a Car & Driver article in '97 or '98 comparing the XK8 convertible to the DB7 Volante. I remember they lauded both cars and were questioning whether the Aston was worth the extra money.
I have been reading this thread with interest. I am old enough to remember when Buddy Holly was on the hit parade and nobody had ever heard of the Beatles The GM LS engine is a VERY good engine by any measure. I love my XK8 just the way it is, but if I was put in a situation where I had to replace the engine and could get a new LS conversion vs a 15 year old Jag engine for a similar price ( or worse scrap a beautiful car ) I would be going for the LS.
This chap is providing a service for folks who want it. No one is forced to make use of his work , no more than anyone is forced to buy an X100 vs an X150. I can't understand the negativity. In my opinion installing one of those Arden body kits, using those fancy red or blue coolant hoses, fall into the same area.
Anyone considering 290hp impressive should drive any number of modern, performance-oriented cars with 500 hp...or more !
Nowadays grandfather's new Toyota V6 sedan will outrun many of the performance cars of yesterday.
It all depends what you're accustomed to, what you're happy with, and what you're seeking.
If you want more power, the LS-series of engines is a great way to get it.
Personally, I think anything more than 400hp is wasted on a street car....but that's a different and very subjective debate .
Cheers
DD
Yes, I know that various manufacturers are putting out more and more power and often from smaller engines. The Alfa Romeo Giulia has a 4cyl that makes 280hp. The whole point, at least to me, of driving older cars is to enjoy them for how they were when new; it's the nostalgia experience. This is especially important for an iconic high-end marque like Jaguar.
The 4.0L is not underpowered by any sane measure even if new engines are more potent. Does anyone here have a problem merging onto freeways or cruising comfortably at 75mph? The mid 90's Ford 5.0L V8 didn't even break 200hp.
Andrew, Ungn, Tijoe, and Jon89 are all right as the do read and are following the point of this thread. On the other hand AJ16er, said it himself, "defending originality on Jaguar forum"; that is NOT what this thread is about nor any of his rants doing any service to anyone. That is not what this thread is about.
Not everyone is a purist whom is against anything that is stock being changed. Everyone can do what they want with their car and that is their right. This thread is about sharing experiences and knowledge of those whom have first hand experience in converting, owning, driving an LS Jaguar. If you are a person without that background then you are NOT what the original poster nor anyone whom is discussing this topic should have to be bothered with. I have converted my Jaguar 3.8s with an LS and have rode in XK8 LS Jaguars. Both my older era and the XK8 have great body styles but they do both share common benefits when an LS is used instead of the stock engine. The performance on all areas is greatly improved and the car becomes what many non-purists want the Jaguar style but a more powerful performance experience that has a lower cost of maintenance and better longevity. There is a reason why of the many engines that the GM aluminum block LS V8 has become one of the most popular engine swap choices for so many cars and that is because of their small size for a V8, light weight, incredible power both stock, with minor tweaks, and potential while also being so reliable, low maintenance, good mileage, and has the longevity that engines with all of these qualities that few engines can compare.
The XK8 engine is an ok engine but it never produced the performance of many V8's today nor can it compare to the LS in reliability/longevity. That is the reason I chose the LS v8 and am completely happy with the result. My Jaguar like the XK8 is very similar it is underpowered in today's world of automobiles and since both engines have that commonality there is no big market for any performance options, etc. That makes a true rebuilding of those engines where you bring them to at least factory or better condition, meaning all new pistons, rings, bearings, valves, cam, everything machined/balanced/blueprinted, etc. and not a cheap change the rings type of rebuild will cost you a lot of dollars and the end result as Tijoe said, a "hoe hum car". That may be fine for purists but for others whom want to know what an LS will provide, which is the point of this thread, the benefits are amazing. My Jaguar is over 50 years old yet with the LS V8 it now handles and out accelerates many new cars and is a night and day in both performance and reliability compared to the stock engine. My car will now accelerate in 0-60 in 3.95 to 4.05 seconds and in three years has over 100,000 miles and will be able to continue with that performance over 250,000 + miles as I have experienced first hand with other LS V8's I own.
Andrew is a great guy whom gives honest straight forward advice. He helped me with my LS swap with many great tips and connected me with places to buy parts to help me that did not benefit him financially as he does not make an LS kit for my old Jaguar. I have seen and been in LS Jaguars that used his conversions and I highly recommend them. I wished he did have a kit for my old Jaguar as I had to solve so many engineering obstacles with my conversion without any such luxury. His kits make the conversion so much easier since it solves all of the fitment, and integration issues for you. When there is no kit for an engine swap it makes it much harder but for me at least I was fortunate choosing the LS V8 as that provided an enormous array of aftermarket products all designed for making the engine swap easier. Putting say a Ford as some might think cool to keep it more aligned with the Jaguar/Ford name will be difficult to say the least. Why? the LS has hundreds of vendors that make things like performance starters, many options of pully's to help with different space needs to fit all of the accessory items like alternators, etc., many options for narrow headers, many performance induction options, low cost for race quality internal parts, options for shift cable adapters & products to covert speedo gauge inputs to different outputs, the many array of ECU products, the many engine mount options, and the list goes on, not to mention the ease of finding car tuners that can remap and provide custom performance tunes for the factory ECU as well as the many speed shops that can work on the LS and build custom engines and other options at a fraction of other brands due to the popularity of the LS. I also own Datsun Z cars and there is a strong market for customizing the Nissan engines which can make great power reliably as well but while I opted for Nissan power for my cars the LS is even an option in that segment as the cost of building an LS that is 1000 HP is less than my Nissan which can also make 1000 HP reliably with a Nissan Skyline but the cost is about double. The Jaguar engine cannot come close to the LS in power even when money is no object as the one example of a 550 HP is nothing compared to an LS which can make a reliable 1000 HP and can go over 2000 HP in race trim.
I showed up in this thread to give the other side a voice. We know that a rebuild of the factory X100/308 engine will cost just under five grand. This is doing a service to anyone contemplating either option because the numbers are out there for the owner to decide.
Perhaps this isn't the right thread for you. It appears the readers here want to understand the LS option- they already know where they can go to find a huge amount of info on the Jag engines (the rest of the forum....). This thread is not about Jag engines- why push it???
Again, with all due respect, now that motives are clear (and yours seems to be to do nothing more than negatively interject on the LS option where others just want to discuss it openly), this would be a good time for you to step away???
Originally Posted by AJ16er
I showed up in this thread to give the other side a voice. We know that a rebuild of the factory X100/308 engine will cost just under five grand. This is doing a service to anyone contemplating either option because the numbers are out there for the owner to decide.
I started this thread to expand upon the LS option, not to argue for it over a rebuild. I make no normative claims or suggestions about what one should or shouldn't do.
Just because I would consider an LS swap doesn't mean that anyone else should. Everyone values originality differently. Trying to argue for one over the other is kind of an apples/oranges comparison, and it's futile to attempt to do it objectively. And you can dismantle any argument by taking it to its extreme.
And--I'm not sure why this is such an issue with the car community, but it is--it's your car. Do with it what you want. There's no actual, mature reason that the two sides can't coexist. Just be happy that there are other people who care about cars. Because those people are dying out.
Perhaps this isn't the right thread for you. It appears the readers here want to understand the LS option- they already know where they can go to find a huge amount of info on the Jag engines (the rest of the forum....). This thread is not about Jag engines- why push it???
Again, with all due respect, now that motives are clear (and yours seems to be to do nothing more than negatively interject on the LS option where others just want to discuss it openly), this would be a good time for you to step away???
There has also been a lot of negative sentiment expressed here towards the factory powertrains. But that's okay, right? Try going on an Aston or Porsche forum, bashing their engines, pushing lumps, and telling purists to get lost. Let me know how it goes.
05-04-2019, 06:56 PM
The GM LS engine is a VERY good engine by any measure. I love my XK8 just the way it is, but if I was put in a situation where I had to replace the engine and could get a new LS conversion vs a 15 year old Jag engine for a similar price ( or worse scrap a beautiful car ) I would be going for the LS.
