Has anyone seen this yet????

The BMW guys have been using a Valvoline product in the 5HP30 and the 5HP24 with good success.


http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/509016

Regards,

Tom

 

What do Manufacturers make thier transmissions out of that they all need a different type of trans fluid? clutshes,belts, ball bearings, tubing etc. are all made of the same metal. They all run in the same temp. range so, why can't we mix and match fluids?[sm=bangbang.gif]

 

Hmmmm, let's see. The ZF 5HP-24 holds 10 litres of fluid when filled from dry. The designer and constructor of this extremely complex and delicate assembly specifies a particular fluid, with the exact vicousity to handle the range of operating temperatures the vehicle will induce, and still yield the required fluid pressures.

So you drop the pan, yank off the filter, and wait for the dripping to stop. And you get out 5 litres of old fluid, on a good day. Want to drain the torque converter? Pull the transmission out, turn the torque converter upside down a few times, and wait some more.

Nah, that's too much work. Let's clean out the pan, put a new filter on and add 5 litres of what somebody else says should be OK. Does Jag say there is a substitute for the Esso fluid? Does ZF? If it's a rebuilt transmission and the rebuilder says it's OK, then it's on him. The one I know says to use the right stuff. So does Jag, and ZF.

So we pump in 5 litres of Pep Boy's deluxe, and let it mix with the five litres ofold Esso fluid for a few thousand miles. Sounds like a money saving plan to me.

How about a transmission flush method? That will renew all the fluid, but costs a fair bit when you multiply $50.00 per litre by, say, 12 to make sure it's fully flushed? Then you still should drop the pan and change the filter on top of that. If I was going to take a chance on using another fluid, that would be the only way I'd do it.

The Esso fluid is sold at the Jag parts counter for about $50.00 per litre. Other manufacturers use it, maybe you can source it elsewhere. You can buy a 20 Litre jug through Jag for maybe $400.00, although the parts guys will look at you as if you were from another planet. If that's the planet where I can get paid $1000 to perform a trans service, point to the sky and I'm gone.

Paying a skilled mechanic two hours of labor to renew the filter, filter O ring and pan gasket and refilling the trans is fair. If he wants a little more, that's OK as long as he knows what he is doing. Topping up the level properly takes some time, it's not like a car where you dump stuff in and check the dipstick. Parts should be about $60.00 max, and the fluid costs whatever you can make it cost. I charge $150 for 5 litres of the correct fluid, straight from the jug that says Jaguar.

These transmissions are sold as "Sealed for Life". That means sealed until its' life is over, which is 90K to 120K as a general average....IF they were not maintained. How long can you make them last if you pull the maintenance at 50K intervals? I don't know that yet, I'm still finding out. I know that the best price I can find from a reputable rebuilder with a decent warranty is at least $2500. installed. Probably more like $3k retail.

So the other question is, if my trans already has 100K on it, should I do the maintenance? My guess would be that it has probably never been done before, unless you have records or a rebuilt trans already in the car. There is a VIN sticker affixed by the factory when the car was built, it is on the left rear of the transmission main case. If the sticker is there and it matches your VIN, be sad. If the sticker is there and it doesn't match your VIN, be curious: it's a used tranny, who knows how many miles it has gone or how old the fluid is. If you see no sticker at all, there's a possibility that it is a rebuilt unit. There are no identifiers of which I am aware that will prove it is. Maybe FJT, jag_genius, or ibjags can tell us different. I'm putting a factory rebuilt in a '98 today, I'll have a close look myself.

Change it at 100K for the first time and you might get a good return for your dollar, you might not. I would do it. But if I use a different fluid, and it blows at 120K, did the mixed fluid contribute to the failure? Nobody knows, not even on another planet. If you fill it properly with the right fluid, you'll know for sure that you got the most out of the transmission that it was going to give you. That's the way I look at it.

NOTE: all of the above is based on my experiences with the 5HP-24 as installed in XJ8 and XK8 vehicles. It specifically does NOTapply to the Mercedes trans used in supercharged vehicles. I don't work on S Types, so it does not specifically apply to them either, although the later (2001?) use the 5HP-24. Andrew Bernstein, British Auto Care, Powell, OH U.S.A.

 

I take it the only source for proper fluid is the dealer?

 

right behind you on that page.. everything you said is true and all customers shud read that . and stypes 03 and up useZF 6HP.

 

Hey genius,

Thanks for that, if you ever see anything I put up that you don't agree with, call me on it. I'm fact-driven, not ego-driven. Just want to make sure I get it right so I can give my customers the best possible advice. Your posts tell me you and FJT have the same outlook, and I appreciate being able to hang out here and learn from you guys.

 

GREAT INFO!!!

 

Thanks Ikon, great car collection!

 

When you look in the ZF ( Manufacturer of this Transmission ) manual, they listEsso LT 71141 as the fluid.Manufacturers of cars with this transmission will have the Esso LT 71141 repackaged and sell it as Spare Parts. BMW is the most expensive for the OTC version, VW is the most economical. You can buy a 20 liter drum of Esso LT 71141 from Jaggi Transmissions for less than $10 per liter. But, it you decide to start using the Castrol or Valvoline aftermarlet version, you must continue to do so until the car dies.

 

Hi Tom,

Thanks for sharing that excellent source. I read that they were dropping out of the ZF loop, but I'll look into them as a supplier. It's probably the same blue plastic jug that Jag sells, without that expensive sticker.

 

We carry and use a fluid from BG. Far cheaper than Jaguar and all the others. Ohio-tech been around long enough to remember the old Castrol Rolls Royce mineral oil. For years Castrol and the Rolls dealer claimed that it was not the same a Jaguar mineral oil. The price was more than double and you better not use the Jaguar stuff or you would destroy your Rolls.

Well.....low and behold. Castrol finally came out and said it's the same stuff and no longer offers the Rolls "labeled" stuff as a separate product. Hmmm.....wonder what's up with the transmission fluid?

 

will the wrong trans fluid in any way affect the automatic transmission pan gasket? im trying to figure out what caused my pan gasket problems.

 

I have used several different brands of Mercon V spec fluids, mostly of the high mileage variety. I started at 111k and at 138 k mi the transmission is fine.
Many failures are attributed to the A-drum breaking up. This is probably a manufacturing defect and lubrication independent.
If the ESSO stuff is so good, why did so many transmissions fail at a relatively early mileage?
Most transmissions seem to last the "average" amount of time for an auto box.

 

I am finally going to do my tranny filter this weekend. My plan is to drop the pan, clean, change the filter, and refill. I bought the Pentosin AFT1. I know that this method changes only 60% of the fluid. But, I figure that 60% new fluid is better than the old fluid that is in there now.

I looked through the board and did a search but didn't find an answer. The question I have is the refill procedures and if there is any particular order in cycling through the gears.

My understanding is :

1. reassemble the pan.
2. fill pan through fill hole without the car running.
3. once overflow, cap and run the car.
4. cycle through the gears.
5. while car still running, open the fill cap and top off until overflows at 40C.
6. cap close and done.

Do I have the procedure correct? If not, what am I missing and what is the correct refill procedure. What is the correct gear cycling procedure.

Thanks in advance.


98 VDP, 174,000

 

Finally got around to doing my transmission filter. Sat the car for a few days to get as much ATF into the pan. Drained out the ATF and unbolted the pan. However the pan did not drop but was held up by the bolt flange where the catalytic is joined to the exhaust. headers.

The research and postings did not mention any obstruction in dropping the pan. So, to the people who are going to change the transmisson filter, please take note. I elected to unbolt the connection from the passenger side of the engine compartment and took off the air filter and air mass tube assembly for easier access.

I sprayed wd-40 on the 4 exhaust header bolts and used a breaker bar with a deep well socket. Unfortunately, I broke one of the bolts. After removing the header bolts, I went under the car and remove the two bolts holding the catalytic and exhaust. I spreaded the catalytic and worked out the pan.

Remove the old gasket and clean. Took off the filter and installed the new filter and o-ring. Cleaned the pan and magnets. Reinstalled and handtightend the pan bolts (22 bolts). Reassembled the catalytic to the exhaust and headers. Torqued the pan bolts at 10 nm and the drain plug at 27 nm.

Used a breaker bar, a one inch extension and a hex socket to remove the fill plug. With a hand pump I bought at Harbor Freight (about $7), I pumped in about 3 quarts ATF before it started to drizzle out. Loosely capped the fill plug and started the car. Cycled the gears from P to D, D to R, and R to P.

Removed the fill plug and pumped in about 3 1/2 more quarts. Used an infrared temp. to monitor the temp. When it reached 35C, I capped the fill plug and turned off the engine.

Beware, the fill plug is next to the exhaust pipe and it gets #$@& hot. Wrap a towel around the pipe near the fill hole which makes it easier to cap the hole since you can rest your hand on the exhaust pipe to steady the installation of the plug. Torque down the fill plug to about 35 nm.

 

My mechanic and I are in the process of changing the Trans Fluid on my 01 XJ8 with 97000 miles. We're looking for a good price on the fluid and refuse to get it from Jaguar at their prices. However looking around I did find this: http://www.automaticchoice.com/new_parts.html (Scroll Down a bit)

It says that there is a new name for the Esso 71141-Mobil LT71141. It says it is exactly the same except it says mobil instead of Esso. So I presume this is ok for the Jaguar boxes?

 

Have you ever taken apart an old filter from a 5HP24? It could tell you a lot more than a clean pan might lead you to beleive. I was surprised when I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJuNdR0wkd8

 

Can you explain that a bit more? WTF is an "infrared temp." and how did you monitor the fluid temperature during this process?

Otherwise great post, thanks!

 

If it were my Jag, it would get the Esso fluid. Not worth it imo to take a chance with another fluid.

A response is better late than never, an infrared temperature scanner/sensor is what they are talking about. You can buy them at most auto parts stores. They can tell you the temp of something by it's infrared/heat signature. Simply point it at what you want to take a reading of, and it tells you what the temp is.