You may need to enlarge the opening but chances are it will be ok. As for the drain and refill good idea. As for the air in the lines it is a self purging system so do not be upset or concerned if the system operates slowly or stalls the first, second or third time let the fluid do the work. You just make sure you did not leave a leak and that the tank is full.

 

Somewhere in one of these threads a suggestion was made to remove the black trim over the windshield to inspect the hoses and connectors - before the dreaded "shower". Sounds like a good idea, and I'm trying to figure out how to get it off. There is a philips screw on each side of the latch opening, and I removed them, but the panel is still attached to some rubber trim at each end - how to get into that without destroying it - or bending the black panel?

I found this on Gus's website - On the top of the window where the locking mechanism is you will need to have access. To the right and left you will have a screw under the rubber seal. I only unscrewed one side. You will also see 2 screws on the top to the left and right of the latch. Then move the cover out of the way. Keep in mind that it is still connected on the other end and do not bend.

Can anyone shed a bit more light on this for an inept novice? Any pics of these two screws under the rubber seal? Thanks all - DaleD

 

There really are screws at each end under the rubber seal. The cover has small tabs extending over the ends to provide that connection. Just peal the seal back a 1/4" to get to them. My '00's seal was glued down over the screws. My '02 has plastic push pins, visible on top of the seal securing this point.

 

SUCCESS!! Now to put all the interior trim back.

Thanks to everyone here, I couldn't have done it without the support. And excellent tutorial Gus, I studied that for a long time.

Dave

 

good job dave, when you're done, take the rest of the day off.

 

In my opinion, you and Gus are the de-facto experts on the convertible top system and ways to address the problems. There is a heated discussion on Roadfly now were the OP is proposing a system that uses resistors to cut current to the pump motor. I am instinctively leery about doing anything that impacts the electrical system on these already electrically quirky cars.

I was thinking that you guys might like to chime in on the discussion going on now at Roadfly re: LSI approach versus resistors.

Doug

 

Doug,
I have been watching and reading the posts on RoadFly with an open mind. You know that in a situation like this and many others I will take the info available and do my homework before I make a serious response. I want to see how the battle ends on the use of resisters. The way I look at this right now is that this motor is designed to produce a certain torque to produce a certain quality of results. Reduce the voltage and the operating time could be compromised. Like taking a car up hill, reduce the power and see how long it takes you to get to the top and at that you will need to change gears to keep from choking out the motor. I want to see how this goes without me getting involved. As for the comment on the other page that our valve extends the operating time of the roof, I would say look at the graphs. Walt and I did all we could to produce a quality product that the both of us could stand behind. We took the time necessary to test and evaluate to give you the quality you so much expect. We did that and we stand behind it and I think that means something to all of you that use it. You know that Walt and I have been there for you! I do not know what Walt is doing but I will sit and watch for now.

 

The same with my '99. I took a worn out flat head screwdriver and gently moved the gasket away (it was glued over the screw) then held it there so I could get the phillips in to unscrew.

 

Thanks for all the good info - but I am still looking. I found the phillips screws at each side of the center latch, I found the phillips screws under the rubber windshield gasket, and I found the plastic pull out plugs (mine is a 2002 also) - removed all, and still no movement of the black trim plate. Am I just to scared to force it? I thought I read that it came right off?

Perhaps I should just wait till my warranty is up in November, and have my tech install the pressure relief valve... DaleD

 

Dale, there is probably a little gooey adhesive on the end tabs still. Gently pry up one end at a time, being very careful not to tear the weatherstripping.

I checked mine a year ago, and saw the some of the outer hose jacket peeling away, but no fraying of the nylon wrapping. I let it go a year, and just replaced my hoses this weekend. I was on borrowed time and was lucky to avoid the green shower.

 

This was the exact same problem i had 3 weeks ago!!!
It cost me $2,000.oo+ to fix it!
The Jagaur dealer told me it was either bad luck or due to high heat, then again it has been in the 3 digits here in Miami...

Sorry to hear about this, made a big dent in my wallet though . . .

 

That seems very high for this repair. Most are reporting repairs at the dealer at $1400 to $1600.

 

I've FINALLY finished documenting the process I went through to replace my hydraulic hoses. I may have not taken the best route at times, but this process does work.

This is the first time I've attached a document, so let me know if anyone has problems accessing it. It is saved in Microsoft Word 2003 format.

Send me a PM if you have specific questions for me.

Steve

 

I glanced at this quickly and it looked to be expertly documented and illustrated!

Thanks,

Doug

 

Great writeup Steve, that's going to be a great resource for years!

 

Great job Steve! This pretty much follows what I did for my '99. And yes, that front kick panel is a PITA to remove.

There was one thing I did differently, when refilling the pump with oil I bought one of those pump style oil cans with a flexible hose to fill it up. That way I didn't have to mess with removing the pump unit to access the fill cap.

 

Doug

My recent comment;

I made every effort to stay away until a conclusion and facts were posted to support the findings. Let me first say that the valve set that was designed and created for the existing system by LSI is in operation and seems to be working well. A great deal of effort, design, durability and reliability went into the design from beginning to end and the results speaks for itself. Facts and figures are posted on my page for everyone to see and understand. What is not understood will be explained in detail if necessary. I am not an expert in this area and that is one of the reasons that I depended on a person of hyd background to take the lead in the LSI design and creation.
What I do understand at this point is that I am not seeing supporting information for the recent findings for this proposed voltage reduction to reduce the hyd system pressure. Abouts and the maybes do not tell me much about what you accomplished. I do know that in most cases motor and motor operators are matched to pumps or the application to supply what is necessary to do the job.. When mismatched, in the case of under torque can and in most cases result in an application failure. For example a Volkswagen pulling a trailer on level ground then imagine it pulling it up hill. My example is a bit absurd but to the point. Please show the supporting information supporting your process. A motor failure could cost $1500.00 to save a few $$.

 

I made the mistake of trying to help out with the series resistor discussion on Roadfly but was completely unsuccessful. I reluctantly got into it when I saw erroneous comments being posted by the individual who is advocating series resistors. I'll make some comments here because things being said on that forum are very misleading and I am concerned that some owners will do this to their cars. It is difficult to teach about a subject in this format, that I have spent a lifetime learning, but I'll try again. For the record I am an electronics engineer, have owned my own embedded controls company since 1979, and count among my customers Manitowoc Crane, Jerr-Dan, JLG, and Ingersoll Rand. These companies are all about hydraulics and my company has designed and manufactures a number of hydraulic control products that are embedded in their heavy duty construction equipment and wreckers.

Pressure is a measure of force. If you apply 100 pounds of force to a 1 square inch piston in a cylinder you are exerting 100psi of force. The force required to operate the top is a factor of weight and friction. If you look at the curves that I captured with a data logger on my 2000 XKR, and Gus has posted on his site, you will see representative pressure curves for the roof going in both directions. This shows (on the Y axis) how much force is required to move the roof. The X axis (time) shows how fast it is moving.

The pressure required to operate the roof is what it is. If the system is incapable of generating this pressure the roof will not operate. Therefore it is not correct to say that reducing the motor speed has reduced the operating pressure. When you change the speed of the motor all you are doing is affecting the flow rate (the x axis of the graphs) of the oil and therefore the speed that the roof will move at. The pressure remains the same with a small variable due to the pressure drop at different flow rates through the hoses.

When you press the roof button the pump switches on and starts pushing oil. The pressure ramps up until the roof hopefully begins moving. At this point flow causes the roof to move at whatever rate is possible with that pump and motor. The relationship between pressure and flow is such that higher pressure results in less flow and visa versa. If you carefully watch the roof operate (or study the curves on Gus' site) you can see how the speed varies according to the pressure. The maximum operating pressure occurs in top up just before it reaches the apex. On my car this was in the neighborhood of 900psi. Please note that the measured pressures are approximate because our roof systems have lots a variable factors.

The problem in our cars is related to what happens when everything has finished moving and the control holds the pump on while nothing is moving. At this point the pressure spikes to about 1600psi, which is the maximum pressure the pump is capable of with no flow. This pressure amounts to an extra 600 psi of force on the seals and hoses. This is a lot of stress. Imagine hanging a grand piano from your hydraulic hose.

The pressure in the relief valve kit is factory calibrated to about 1000psi. This means that when the high pressure, that has nothing to do with moving the roof, occurs the excess flow is routed back to the tank rather than putting and additional 600 pounds of force on the components. This is the standard way that all industrial grade hydraulic systems are done. The other way of dealing with this, that Gus and I discussed, would be to modify the controller. This is something I could do but the ultimate cost to owners would have been much higher due to a significant amount of reverse engineering and then there are the warranty and liability factors. We decided on a solution that offers the highest reliability possible.

Now we have the "resistor solution". I think it is reasonable that the dead head (zero flow) pressure from a reduced capacity pump will result in somewhat lower pressure. However, I don't know what that pressure is other than knowing how this pump works, and the fact that the motor continues to turn the pump, the zero flow pressure will nearly as high as the 1600psi I measured. I say this because the pump continues to push oil into the zero flow hoses even with the resistors in the circuit. I asked the individual on Roadfly to measure that pressure and he claimed that the slow movement of the roof was proof of low pressure. He became very upset when I (and others) told him that was not true. Hopefully you guys can follow the description above to understand this.

There are side effects to reducing motor speed beyond the top operating much slower. The slow rate means that the motor will be on longer. This means that the hot spots in the DC motor will get hotter. The normal failure point in that type of motor is the brushes because the brush commutator junction is the point of highest resistance and therefore the highest heat. A very high percentage of DC motor failures are related to brush/commutator breakdowns. Motors also rely on rotational speed to generate internal air circulation that helps relieve the hot spots. If the motor is turning slower the internal hot spots will get hotter. Slower speed also means that the solenoids are on longer. Solenoids have the same heat issues (or worse) as DC motors.

A final point regarding operation with the car engine on or off. There is no significant difference in pressure from doing this. The pump draws about 12A and over time this puts additional stress on the battery, despite what has been posted to the contrary. In particular, a battery that is nearing the end of life will be hastened to that end. Jaguar recommends that the car be on when operating the roof for good reason because when the engine is on the alternator is supplying the bulk of the load current.

I don't intend to engage in any debate over my comments. You can take them or leave them and make your own informed decisions.
Walt.

 

Walt,
Well said!

 

Walt, obviously your pressure relief system is well thought out and works well. I have only read through the Roadfly debate once, and the guy who is advocating the resistors seems to have a chip on his shoulder. The one thing I'd like to point out, however, has to do with the peak pressure on the latch hose at the end of the cycle. You use the example of the 100 pound force on the 1 square inch piston. That makes sense when we're talking about a hydraulic system where there is always a weigh pushing down on the piston. But in the hydraulic latch above the mirror, the normal state is zero pressure. The hose to the latch is only pressurized for the few seconds when the latch is operating. As you described above, the overpressure occurs when the latch reaches the end of its cycle but the pump motor continues to run. I think resistor-guy's method has some merit because the reduced voltage to the motor will prevent the motor from developing the torque necessary to generate the1600 PSI that it develops when the lacth is closed but the motor is still running.

Having said that, I agree with all of your points above about premature motor failure. However, most manufacturers are going to design some tolerance into the system. Without knowing the specs of the motor, it's difficult to say whether or not the reduced voltage/current is going to affect motor life. Over all, the motor is going to be developing less power because some of the energy that was formerly used to run the pump is now going to be heating up the resistors.

And in regards to another poster's point that reduced voltage to the pump is going to result in more current, that is incorrect. You have to look at the resistance of the entire circuit to determine the current, not just the resistance of one component. Reisitor Guy is adding resistance to the circuit as a whole. That will mean there is less current, even though the Ohm's law equation on the motor itself makes it look like there should be more current.

By the way, I'm also an EE, but I'll admit that I have very limited knowledge of hydraulics.