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Took the car to CoTA here in Austin for a track weekend. I'm experienced on the track so didn't pull any shenanigans. On the third session, 5 laps in, got a message in the center of the dash that the brakes were overheating. However, the brakes continued to perform just fine.
Few questions...
- Where's the temp sensor? Is it at the wheel (i.e. rotor or caliper), or in the brake fluid reservoir?
- What's the temp that triggers this message? I'm still running OEM fluid but wouldn't hesitate to switch to race fluid if needed.
- I'm aware that the racing brake "ducts" have been discontinued. Has anyone located an aftermarket solution?
- I know stopping a 4000 lb car takes some effort, but jeez, 5 laps on a hot day gets them over temp? Have others experienced this with CCBs?
Well, contrary to what everyone wants to believe, a nearly 4000-lb "sports car" is simply, not. It's just physics, and it's going to take serious brakes to drag it down over and over. Look at how long the Tesla Plaid lasts on-track, as it's in the same weight range. As I suggested elsewhere, true brake ducting works wonders to improve things, but I don't know if anyone's actually done it yet, I guess it's easier to throw money at it instead.
Regarding your question about temperature, keep in mind there are several ways to find it, including having no sensor at all. It's a thermodynamics problem that's fairly easy to solve if you know the weight, speed changes, air temp, and frequency of occurrence, and the ECU knows all that. I worked in aerospace and we measured temperatures of things that were hard or impossible to measure with a physical sensor by doing just that. So, there may be sensors, and maybe not, but it can be no less accurate.
I don't know the answer to your questions, but I've been using Castrol React SRF Racing (as recommended in the handbook) and have not had an issues with the brakes overheating on the track.
Well, contrary to what everyone wants to believe, a nearly 4000-lb "sports car" is simply, not. It's just physics, and it's going to take serious brakes to drag it down over and over. Look at how long the Tesla Plaid lasts on-track, as it's in the same weight range. As I suggested elsewhere, true brake ducting works wonders to improve things, but I don't know if anyone's actually done it yet, I guess it's easier to throw money at it instead.
Regarding your question about temperature, keep in mind there are several ways to find it, including having no sensor at all. It's a thermodynamics problem that's fairly easy to solve if you know the weight, speed changes, air temp, and frequency of occurrence, and the ECU knows all that. I worked in aerospace and we measured temperatures of things that were hard or impossible to measure with a physical sensor by doing just that. So, there may be sensors, and maybe not, but it can be no less accurate.
I never called it a "sports car" ;-) But yes, getting the venting done properly would be the goal. I I'm curious if anyone's actually used those original Jag ones. If there are some laying around, it wouldn't be the hardest thing to get them 3D scanned and then printed with some decent quality plastic.
Understood on your comments regarding temp - hoping to actually get a definitive answer on how they did it on this car, however. Would be really great to understand the system overall and how it operates.
I don't know the answer to your questions, but I've been using Castrol React SRF Racing (as recommended in the handbook) and have not had an issues with the brakes overheating on the track.
I assume this is on steels? Does your car also have a brake temp reporting / sensor somewhere?
Sorry, that wasn't pointed at you, but how, in general, it's claiming to be one. I mean, I get it, modern cars are heavy, but physics doesn't change, and "real" sports car are typically much lighter. Even if brakes are made to work, the pads and tires are going to take a beating, really driving up the cost of an on-track experience. I remember taking my then-new Camaro to the autocross. After about 10 laps (`50 seconds each), I later calculated that the outing cost me around $500 in tire wear due simply to the car's weight. No smoking tires, no lurid slides, just scrubbing off rubber. Last time I did that.
Big PCA event VIR years ago and the guy in the garage next to me (got a spot for free due to luck) had a elise...basic lotus. He was a great driver and we got to talking. He had a gt3 but it cost 4-5x as much to track it due to weight....brakes, tires....and he liked to track a lot.
I don't plan to track the F-type...too heavy and too pretty...and too expensive to track (insurance, tires, brakes, etc.). If I was super wealthy I'd buy a lighter car as a toy and leave the gt at home anyway.
Sorry, that wasn't pointed at you, but how, in general, it's claiming to be one. I mean, I get it, modern cars are heavy, but physics doesn't change, and "real" sports car are typically much lighter. Even if brakes are made to work, the pads and tires are going to take a beating, really driving up the cost of an on-track experience. I remember taking my then-new Camaro to the autocross. After about 10 laps (`50 seconds each), I later calculated that the outing cost me around $500 in tire wear due simply to the car's weight. No smoking tires, no lurid slides, just scrubbing off rubber. Last time I did that.
Agreed completely. Even a 911 is easily 500 lbs lighter. Though the f-type is really a gt car more than anything else. I'd take f-type over 911 for a weekend trip any day.
I wouldn't normally take the f-type to a track, but CoTA is local and all that power can actually be used in the long straights. As I mentioned at the start of the thread, the brakes experience absolutely no fade or degradation during my sessions. It was purely a brake temperature warning on the dash. I pushed for two more laps (being careful in braking zones) and car continued to brake perfectly.
Yes, it's an expensive car to track. I run dedicated wheels and tires for the track and that alone is a pretty penny.
Big PCA event VIR years ago and the guy in the garage next to me (got a spot for free due to luck) had a elise...basic lotus. He was a great driver and we got to talking. He had a gt3 but it cost 4-5x as much to track it due to weight....brakes, tires....and he liked to track a lot.
I don't plan to track the F-type...too heavy and too pretty...and too expensive to track (insurance, tires, brakes, etc.). If I was super wealthy I'd buy a lighter car as a toy and leave the gt at home anyway.
That's the way to do it. Or even a miata.
I mostly track my mev rocket (kit from the uk, similar idea to an atom, but cheaper and simpler).
To the OP:
Assume you had SRF. Suspect the system is going by the standard temp calc as noted and not what SRF can take....who knows. Here is what I used to use on the track. Silly P car tax....another reason I prefer the F-type. Not so great on speed bumps...lost a few of them and ultimately changed them out just for the track as never got the brakes hot on the street anyway. I only use SRF on track.
Last edited by jcb-memphis; Jun 26, 2022 at 05:18 PM.
To the OP:
Assume you had SRF. Suspect the system is going by the standard temp calc as noted and not what SRF can take....who knows. Here is what I used to use on the track. Silly P car tax....another reason I prefer the F-type. Not so great on speed bumps...lost a few of them and ultimately changed them out just for the track as never got the brakes hot on the street anyway. I only use SRF on track.
Fair point, maybe they never recalibrated it for CCBs and/or SRF. Do those fins sit on the LCAs? The SVR already has something like this installed, but I think there was a dealer item that went beyond that which was discontinued.
Yes, the 996GT2 parts go on the LCA's...but probably won't work on an F-type as the F's parts are much bigger/stronger (LR spec of hitting a curb at 45mph per Harry Metcalfe and his type 7 wheels/suspension...mentioned in one or two of his youtube videos).
But they might...it is just an expensive might. What may work is to "rivet" something to the bottom of the jaguar's OEM plastic piece like Porsche did to the stock gt3 piece (that is about an 2-3cm of more depth...so it will scrape.....I'd likely start low like at 1". And if you find out more on the SVR optional part..please post!!!
To be honest, the parts on my F-type look different....car is not near me at the moment but from the Savageese youtube on the R here is a screen capture:
The duct and the channel built into the tray to help it with more air.... That is the front left on an R but my type S seems pretty much the same as this. The SVR probably has way better stuff stock is what it looks like but the actual surfrace areas look different...the "pseudo" NACA duct in the undertray that I pointed to may be very different on the SVR...so like all other things it is a system....who knows.
Upon reflection, if I got that message I'd bring it in too....to loose brakes on a high HP heavy car...not a good day. I think adding a lower air flap might be the trick like Porsche did...it just may take some experimentation.
Last edited by jcb-memphis; Jun 26, 2022 at 05:47 PM.
Since SRF can take it "wet" I used it for a full season back when tracking....seemed fine. I am NOT a super fast guy so take that with a grain of salt. I worked really hard to be smooth and just worked hard on treating my high HP car like a momentum car. The instructors got a kick out of it but I could get way more tire and brake life that way too....and it was more fun since we were not "racing".....a gt2 is a very fast momentum car....I was in an advanced group but I always asked for an instructor....rotated throgh them. I figured I was doing ok if they would still get in the car day 3.
Last edited by jcb-memphis; Jun 26, 2022 at 05:49 PM.
These are the optional parts, found on another post. Actually these are newer (superseded an older item) part numbers which appear to be available, albeit pricey for a piece of plastic.
Ducts: T2R10498 and T2R10497
Clamps for them: T2R10496 (4 total needed to fasten the two ducts)
Might pick them up just to see how much (if any) difference they make. The clamps are insanely expensive (~$60 apiece) and I think a sturdy pipe clamp would do just fine if you measure the diameter of the sway bar it clamps on to.
190 for each air duct and 240 in clamps.....never thought I'd see that happen.
620 or so total.... I may just try to do my own thing.....get some "stock" parts for my regular brakes and then do "rivet" sculping with some plastic....or may just not worry about it. On some very spirited drives have never had an issue with the steelies....I use SRF to this day...since not tracking I just use it instead of normal fluid...peace of mind...over 500F boiling wet seems like a great thing to have on the car...call me spoiled. Black calipers make....so cannot tell if the paint got "burned"....on an prior car the "yellow" brembo paint turned orange/gold with heat cycles.....sort of ugly....front>> rear...uneven...but you got to see what got hot... I did not bother ot fix it...cosmetic only. Do the CCB calipers show paint color change after your "brakes got too hot" message? (to the OP)?
One thought...used temp stickers back a long time ago..you could put those on different parts of the calipers and perhaps lower temp ones on the rservoir and see if anything interesting can be learned....etc. Old school....I think they are one time use only....
Calipers look perfectly fine. No discoloration whatsoever. Rotors show no wear either and pads bare wore at all. Good call on the stickers, but honestly I'm less worried about what temp I'm hitting rather than how the car thinks the temp is too high.
In dedicated track cars (enduro race cars) we normally run RBF600 which I've never been able to get anywhere near boiling (585F) even when beating on it for 8hours in a day.
I edited out the stickers and paint idea as did not want it to cause any issues if it came off.....RBF600 is goos stuff dry...the wet part of things is what I care about as I wanted a fluid that was really good if not changed out every darn weekend.....
Sorry for the typos...had not intended for that to live on in eternity. Oh well.
You are about as safe as can be with the SRF...
DRY BP :: WET BP
RBF 585F (found a 594F too ) :: 401F
SRF 608F :: 514F
Please keep us posted. SRF is just a little pricey to use every weekend...but I just love the stuff.
Last edited by jcb-memphis; Jun 26, 2022 at 08:15 PM.
CCB brakes overheating dash message - on track
