Kaplans has only 2 P450 RWDs, and both are stripped base cars. So no go. But thank you for the heads up.

As far as 'expectations', I don't have any. Several forum members have bought deeply discounted '23s and '24s, but I suspect maybe from dealers that are bowing out of Jag. No details were posted, so no idea. But the only reason I'm looking for one is because they can be had at those discounts. No way I'd pay even close to MSRP for this car, period. I have no local dealer anymore, it depreciates like a rock, and it's not very reliable. Plus I want to minimize my depreciation loss, so don't mind paying more for an LC500 if I have to, which would depreciate way less, and be more reliable for the simple reason it's a Toyota, NA V8, and RWD (only considering the rare touring trim, with full aniline leather seats -vs Alcantara-, with no RWS, variable ratio steering, active rear spoiler, etc). I prefer it over the LC, but would only justify it if I can get deeply discounted. And I don't care if it's a '23 or '24, but I want it fully loaded, coupe, RWD, full extended leather (not black), Meridian Surround, and heated/cooled seats. I'm flexible with other options (either absent or present), wheels, and colors (except black). At this point, I see maybe 10% chances of ending up with a P450, but will continue looking for a new one (and an LC too) until the end of the year, and see what happens. Might start looking at pristine used ones in Jan, and if still no dice, then maybe consider both the C8 coupe and Cayman S. But might just give up buying a car for now. Maybe when I have to sell my sport BMW bike would itch more for a sports car, but for now, I even feel stupid for buying a 100 grand car I don't need. But super happy with the great help I've gotten from everybody here; greatly appreciated.

 

I'm assuming you've searched with Jaguar's online inventory tool? Here are 107 '24 RWDs currently at dealers in the US:

https://inventory.jaguarusa.com/new/...ection%5D=desc

If you sort by highest price you'll find the ones with the most options so you can find the ones loaded the way you want

 

You don't sound like you are in a rush, and you almost sound indifferent about getting one. Good place to be from a financial standpoint. Just wait it out I guess. That's what I would definitely do if I were you. I'm a bit different in that I'm quite passionate about the car. The F-type has always been on my short list of cars. I'm fulfilling one of my dreams here in a way. To the point where I'm one of those crazy ones who will pay MSRP (or slightly under in my case). In my market it would seem we don't have much of a choice, at least for 2024s. If you think you can get one dirt cheap and don't care in the end if you get one with your spec then roll the dice I say.

As for your comments on reliability...Are these things Toyotas? Absolutely not, but most cars are not in terms of reliability. I know people who own these cars, and I've done a fair amount of reading on here. I suspect there will be owners that don't agree with your comments. The latest iteration of the F-type are pretty reliable if you service them properly.

Your comments on the depreciation are probably fair, but I personally could care less about that. All these things depreciate, just at different rates. An LC will depreciate a little bit less, but my reading on those says that they aren't that stellar either (despite their reliability). Porsche would be the king of that department if you have a high emphasis on resale.

The information out there that I'm reading is saying there is likely to be a massive correction in the car market in the US more generally. If you can wait you probably should. You will probably end up getting some crazy deal if you hold out. That would be my best guess.

 

Keep up the good work perpetuating the "it's not very reliable" myth - it makes buying used a real money saver. My 3 previous Jags, and my current F-Type have been super reliable, and certainly haven't let me down like my previous Japanese cars have. Sounds like you've set your heart on a Toyota, so best go for that and learn the facts about reliability.

 

Maybe that's part of the strategy of getting his price

In all seriousness, I get that total cost of ownership from a depreciation standpoint is a factor (more for some than others), but when money becomes the dominant factor in a new sports car purchase I think it may be time to re-evaluate whether this is the car for someone. My opinion only. Most cars are not investments. There are exceptions out there of course...Cars that appreciate and whatnot, but unless you are talking about something like that, it seems kind of pointless to not embrace the car that rings your bell (money aside). This life we are all in here together is short.

Put it this way, a real example: In the end I was between a 911 Carrera S and an F-type R in this recent purchase for myself. Depreciation in this case would say that the better move is the Porsche for sure. The problem with that is that the Carrera does not ring my bell in the same way. Am I going to buy the Porsche anyway? What is the point of doing that if I don't like the car as much? It just seems silly.

I also considered an LC, but going that direction in my case would definitely not be satisfying what I'm looking for. It would have been a Carerra S before that for sure. I am a Toyota guy, I have 2, so the reliability end of an LC crept in at one point. Then I shook some sense into myself. This is a "dream car" purchase, so as long as reliability is reasonable it doesn't really matter. If I look at used Lc500s on the market in Canada they don't look that much different in terms of price to used F-types to me, but it's been a while since I looked.

In the end, I suppose that the important thing is that one focuses on what is important to them in the purchase. If money is the driving factor then it is.

 

What kind of discounts have you seen or read about members receiving on 2023 and 2024 models?

 

I'd be curious to know as well, simply out of my interest in seeing how different the markets are between Canada and the US. Up here if you went with the types of negotiating approaches he is talking about they would literally laugh you out of the showroom, but that means nothing. These markets are very different so it would not necessarily surprise me if 10k off could be achieved in the US? It would interesting to understand whether this 10k and 12k ideas are fantasy or achievable. I don't see the incentive for them to sell cars with that level of discounting, but maybe there is enough margin for these things to occur down there. Not sure.

In Canada we actually can buy these cars for cheaper right now than Americans (after conversion). A loaded R in Canada after removing the luxury tax is 137k CND. That same car in the US costs 120k US, or approx 162k CND dollars. With this said, perhaps there is a bit more margin in a US sale vs. a Canadian one?

I mentioned this in another thread: I was told by my dealer that the margins on 2024s were much thinner than for 2023 and previous years. In that same thread a US Jag salesman commented that there was truth to that. If this is true I think 2023s might be a better target. But who knows...No offence to salesman, but they are not ranked as the most trusted folks out there on the employment ladder ;-) Sorry, but this is kind of an accepted thing...lol...Not gonna paint them all with the same brush personally, but I have had more bad experiences with them than good up here in these parts.

 

I'm in the Canadian market and I'll pick on two cars currently for sale.

2023 P450 no options MSRP $94,000 CAD. Dealer had it for a couple of months
2020 P380 Checked Flag CPO for $80,000 CAD. Again dealer had it for a few months.

looking at KKB wholesale values...the P450 should be $70,000 and P380 should be $40,000. Very curious how both these cars will sell.
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Even at the best of times, don't think cars sitting on dealers lots ever necessarily followed those values to the letter.

Is the 2023 a "new car"?

 

Yup the 2023 is New Car.
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Just for laughs, here are the price cuts another dealership posted on a 2019 P380 they've had for over a year.

 

I check the national inventory often, and there's NONE that meets my minimum requirements (either '23 or '24), except those 2 recent arrivals at Tampa. As far as reliability, I've done extensive research, and even if you love your car like a child, and yours has been reliable, doesn't mean all are. It's just the way it is. I'm not a fan boy of any brand, so I always look at cars objectively, and coldly. Also remember I have NO LOCAL JAG DEALER, so that is a very significant drawback on a P450. I know the Jag is not the best financial decision, even at a deep discount, but I do NOT have to have one. And also decided it'd be stupid to buy one without even driving it, so I won't consider one until I do (hopefully in 2 weeks in Austin). And will drive the other contenders too, before making the decision of which order I like them, independent of price. Then factor in price, and re-arrange that order, if needed. Bottom line is if I have to pay MSRP (or near it), I'm sad to say it absolutely won't be a Jag in my garage, just for the dealership situation. Even if something stupid happens to my new Jag, it'd be a MAJOR PITA to fix, with closest dealer over 500 miles away. It just wouldn't be a very rational decision, even without considering the big depreciation, and lack of safety features, compared to the other cars. So will stop looking for anything until I have driven all 4 contenders, hopefully before the end of the year, but lack of availability is not making that easy at all. Will keep you posted. Thank you for the comments. And sorry if I insulted some of you with some truths, but again, I'm not a fan of anything, let alone a brand, or even a model. I've owned almost every brand available, and almost all of them make (or have made) great and awful cars, and also a model has been crap and great over time, so even being a fan of a model makes no sense to me. Ha ha. So pardon me for not being a Jag fanboy.

 

Fan boy...lol...Says the guy that is even considering buying this car with a dealer 500+ miles away. I would never consider that, even though I have a history of noticing this car over the years and having it on my list of interest. It would be done right there. I would not buy the car. Add to that the amount of time you seem to spend on this forum, it is clear you have an interest in the car. Of that there is no doubt, despite the apparent indifference you are displaying in your commentary at times.

Also, it's not because I'm a "fan boy" that I'm blind to the realities around the reliability of vehicles...Which seems to be the suggestion. I assessed the car based on information directly from both family and friends that own them, as well as reasonably deep research. I came to the conclusion that it met the bar for reasonable reliability balanced out against other attributes I'm looking for, otherwise I too would have taken the car off my list. The newest gen car that you are looking is quite reliable despite what you say, as they have all the revisions and fixes. Why in the world would you be looking at this car if you didn't think so??!?!?

To say that all cars have problems is stating the obvious, but it is possible to get a sense of the degree of reliability issues. This car is deep into its development cycle. There are certain advantages that come along with that. These are NOT horrid for reliability. Period. They just aren't. It almost seems as if you're looking to use "the lack of reliability of the F-type" as some sort of bargaining chip or something in your mind for getting your price or something. That may or may not work out for you. All this said, there may be no cars for you to buy if your mentality is that they are all basically problematic. Of course they are. Even Porsche has some horror stories out there with their fabled 911 that is supposed to be next to perfect. Nick Murray (YouTuber into Porsche, look him up) had a modern 911 that was so bad that Porsche had to buy the car back from him. Porsche have had many other bad outings that could be talked about, this is just one real bad specific one that comes to mind.

In any case, I wish you well in your search...Whatever it is that you are looking for...It's really not clear to me what that is at this point. Your posts seem all over the map as far as I can tell.

Best of luck

 

Of course I'm interested on the P450, or I wouldn't waste my time here. And I never said the reliability was 'horrid'; just not the best, which is true. But unfortunately for the Jag, the bar is higher, due to my (no) dealer situation. And being at the end of the cycle means nothing for reliability. Case in point (out of several other examples) was my brand new '08 BMW M3 V8 had engine issues. It was a mistake to buy it the first year, even though I waited until the end of the first year (before I learned of the bearing issues). Anyway, BMW fixed all the problems with the engine and new DCT (mine was manual) in the next year. By 2010, it was basically trouble-free. But in '11, it had even more engine failures than '08, because BMW decided to save a few cents on a new bearing supplier. And THAT is a very common mistake I see over and over again with all vehicle manufacturers. Anyway, all the cars I'm looking at have problems, so will also have to weigh which one is the least likely to give me trouble. The Jag doesn't scare me that much mechanically, even though it has a supercharger I wish it didn't, but its main vulnerability is electric/electronic issues. And it also depreciates the worst by far. And since I'm not a fan boy of any of the contenders, I'm going to make my purchase somewhat rational, meaning no way I'd pay close to MSRP for the Jag due to no dealer, AND massive depreciation. Hope this is enough to explain my rationale. Otherwise, just move on from my thread; easy peasy.

Moving on, I drove the Porsche Cayman S, and it's out. I drove it after a C8, and was actually surprised how nice it was. It was a non- Z51, 3LT (all leather everywhere, with Alcantara roof liner), and magnetic ride control, which is exactly how I'd order mine. It also had front lift, which I'd pass on, but it didn't have sport exhaust, which is a must for me, since I want a 'Jekyll and Hyde' kind of car. It was surprisingly quiet, with a very refined ride. So the touring side was perfect. It just needed to be louder with everything in sport mode. Unfortunately, the engine sound is a big negative for me; it sounds agricultural. Hemis sound way better, and are push-rods too. But I could live with that. The HUGE problem is the # of DCT failures is having even after 4 years of production. And now that it was redesigned a little for '24, they're having even more problems, so I'm bummed by that, since it felt special inside, and the driving experience as well. I didn't care for the massive blind spot with the huge tail, but not a huge deal. The Porsche felt pedestrian by comparison, and also sounded unrefined, nothing like my ex-GTS with an H6. And already had rattles everywhere. It did nothing for me, so it was an easy decision to drop it. Then drove a Lexus RC-F, since there was no LC500, and it was an equal disaster. I had a 2015, and this one wasn't any better. Ultra noisy inside (yes, a noisy Lexus), but the worst part was the transmission: It literally took a full second to execute downshifts, so that alone was a deal-breaker. I'm almost positive the LC won't have that problem, but the issue with it will be the seats (and the weight). I tried one with the sport seats, and they're a deal-breaker. If the touring ones (which is what I want) are better, then I'd take it on a test drive. And of course the Jag. Austin has an AWD one, so would have to drive that one, so hope they're comparable, especially the ride quality and tranny downshifts. But the comfort and cabin noise levels should be the same. My main concern with the Jag is the stiff ride most reviewers complain about, even in 'soft' mode. My other concern is a laggy transmission on downshifts with the paddles (which I use most of the time on my vehicles). By the way, the Tampa GM called me and offered $2K off MSRP (well, $4K off... but +$2K fees), so in a month or two he still has them (or one), he'd probably go much deeper than that, but I sense his limit is probably around $5K, so the car would have to blow me away to even consider that. We'll see.

At any rate, I do NOT need another car, and even though I could do it tomorrow, I'm in no hurry to buy one. The other option I'm contemplating if I'm not convinced any of the 3 make sense for one reason or another, is buying a new manual BRZ, fix it up with exhaust, a short shifter, etc., and enjoy one of the reportedly best driver's cars, and keep my basically new (fully-loaded) '23 G70 RWD, so my wife can drive it when I take her SUV on a bike trip (hauling it in a trailer). I'd save about 20 grand doing that. But first, hope to finally drive the P450 and LC500 in 2 weeks in Austin. Then will post my final thoughts, and which direction I plan to go. The LC is the most expensive ($102K), but the most reliable. The C8 is the cheapest ($85K), but at least for now, the least mechanically reliable IMO. The Jag is in-between in cost and reliability (to me), but worst in resale, and no dealer. In looks, I like the P450 the best overall, but by a very small margin, so any of them would be perfectly fine. I think what will define which one I go with is the driving experience. The C8 was awesome, and with NPP (valved exhaust), it'd have the dual-personality I'm looking for. But I'd have to wait at least a few months to buy it, until GM get its act together with the DCT. The LC would have to blow me away to choose it, but I really doubt it with its porky 4,350 lbs. Plus my only choice with touring seats would be a red interior, so a BIG detraction. My final decision will combine driving enjoyment and value. The Jag at MSRP would absolutely be out... but might consider a $5K discount if it drives super nice, with crisp and aggressive downshifts, not too noisy inside when cruising, and ride is acceptable when touring. Will post my findings in a couple of weeks.

 

Sounds like you should be asking for way more than $5k off.

New car inventory

 

Sounds like you’re pretty busy checking out the options.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the idea that a car being deep into its development cycle means something towards how well worked out a car is. The F-type has essentially been tweaked and refined since it came out 10 years ago. No sweeping changes, just constant refinements and improvements, and the use of that engine predates the F-type. That’s a very different thing then a complete re-design or whatever. This contributes to less surprises.

In reference to your concerns about the electronic concerns of the f-type…I have read that a few years back they switched to Bosch as the supplier, and since then things are greatly improved. I’ve read this numerous times.

In reference to your comment about the ride being harsh. I have seen references that the stock tires play into that. Apparently a new set of Continentals or Michelins makes a big difference. After spending that kind of money on a car, the idea of then shelling out for replacement rubber is kinda gross ;-0 The stock tires seem to be universally hated, as I’m sure you know.

It really doesn’t sound like you will need to pay MSRP on anything you are looking at in your market, especially if you wait it out a bit longer.

I have read that Porsche often has rattles. Seems odd/surprising, but I have read that.

They keep saying how amazing that magna ride in the Corvette is. Never drove one. I just could never buy that car myself. I find the styling atrocious. Very boy racer overstyled to my eye. The proportions are off. The amount of problems since that car launched are absolutely huge too, and the problems just keep coming. That is an example of a car that is NOT “worked out” yet. Too many unknown Easter eggs waiting in that car. People can say what they want about the F-type, but it’s problems are understood.

The real funny one for me on those Corvettes is that the paint, in many cases, is chipping off around the headlights. This has been going on since the beginning and it is still happening on 2024s. It is a well known issue that lots of people encounter and they’ve done nothing about it. They need to put a redesigned gasket or something around the light so it won’t occur, but GM is essentially ignoring it. Just what every car enthusiast wants with their new expensive sports car, to have to paint it. Read stories of people repainting and the paint not matching well and all that kinda crap. Not ideal. I remember when the F-type first came out they had a similar issue near the back bumper..They corrected the problem immediately on the line. Manufacturers who ignore issues like that, I ignore them.

 

Removed.

 

Thank you for the comments. Have an update. The Cayman and C8 are out. The Cayman did nothing for me, plus was baffled by all the rattles it had with only 2K miles. And ultra noisy inside; I don't want that anymore. The C8 drives awesome, but even after 5 freaking years of production, '24s are having DCTs replaced left and right, when it was supposedly improved, so it's a hard pass, at least for a year. That leaves the That leaves the LC500 and P450, but I'm not going to go over my self-imposed limit of 100 grand, so the LC is most likely out by price alone, but will still drive one. If I like the P450, then have to decide how much I'm willing to pay for it. Just finished reading an interesting thread over the XK forum, and it's looking really bad for Jag, so not sure if it'd be smart to plunk that kind of money on one, even heavily discounted. I could wait for the $12K+ discounts several folks got for their '23s, but so far there are only TWO cars I'd buy with the specs I want, and if they sell, then it's over for me... unless I find more. So even if I like the P450, would have to wait several months to see what happens with prices. I don't need a car, so no rush. Will keep you posted.

 

More power to you with your self discipline. If I could drive a car and hold off buying in the hope of a discount months down the track, then it isnt the car for me.

 

I've read several of your posts and have the following to offer...it seems to me as if you're being overly didactic in your assessment. Perhaps intuiting your way there, as well, would add a nice balance to your approach.

Over the years, I have know hundreds of car enthusiasts and understand how many of us go crazy doing research [after all, that's part of the fun, right?], but the final decision should be between you and your heart. For most people here, the F type speaks to us in a way no other car could [at this price point, anyway]. The only other car I would consider is a GT3/RS, but that's ridiculous for all kinds of reasons.

Even with a "lowly" base v6 [tuned and lowered], the car is an absolute joy to drive. To me, driving an F type is similar to being with a really beautiful, incredibly kind woman [perhaps a classic California blond who looks absolutely gorgeous in jeans/T-shirt]. Beauty is shape and proportion, and Ian Callum nailed it [inside and out]. Power-wise, you can have it any way you like. IMO, handling improves dramatically with lowing/stiffening the springs [but also roughens the ride], as compromising a car's handling [compensating for crappy roads] never made much sense to me.

Reliability-wise, fix a couple of issues and you should be all set...but remember, if you were guaranteed that nothing would ever happen to your car, much of the excitement in driving it would be lost. It is the taking of chances that create excitement, and is why almost all really wealthy people become bored with their toys in short order. After all, if there is no risk, there is no reward. OTOH, you don't want to be broken down on the side of the road either [and you shouldn't be if you do what maintenance needs to be done]. But...you never know...and thank God for that!.

 

Yep, the test drive will be crucial to decide what to do. I wanted to drive exactly the specs I'd get, but it's not possible, so it'll be an AWD. I'm not going to push it, so hopefully the AWD has the same steering, suspension, and ride of the RWD when driven sedately. And go from there. And yes, I make rational decisions nowadays, but if the car blows me away, I'd be more willing to make 'concessions'. Ha ha. So far the C8 has met my expectations, with a quiet and compliant ride with everything dialed down, with obviously higher sportiness than I was expecting, in exchange for a quiet ride when touring. It doesn't have the prettiest rear, but the interior, features, and how it drives, are top notch. It blew the Cayman S completely out of the water (even with its stellar DCT), which I didn't expect, so the Porsche was almost immediately dropped from consideration, to the point of cutting the test-drive short. But also cut the C8 from consideration, due to a lot of tranny failures happening right now with '24s, after 5 years of production. So if I like the Jag next week, my approach would be to buy one at the right price (still to be determined), or a '25 C8, if GM gets its act together by then, whichever comes first. I have the cash on hand, so it could happen at any time. I'm also watching what Tesla does at the end of the year. If they go crazy with the discounts, might get a M3P in the mean time. Drove one and it has a superb sound system, it's stupid fast (3.1 0-60), handles vert well, and it's very comfortable. In fact, was surprised it beat a Porsche GT3 to win a European autocross competition. I didn't expect that from a 4K-lb car.