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Next Gen F-Type Misdirection

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Old 01-14-2019, 08:35 AM
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I'm concerned that a new, driving-agnostic generation at Jaguar will finally do the company in.

Before continuing, "doing the company in" means one of two things: bankruptcy, or abandoning drivers' cars in favor of manufacturing models for the masses.
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The first disturbing rumor is electric. Problem: electric cars are an unfunny joke. Tesla has failed to turn a profit dispite hundreds of billions in taxpayer subsides for a host of equally deadly reasons. They are in the early process of bankruptcy (junk bond ratings paying extreme interest rates on new capital, infinite P/E, exausted cash position requiring bait and switch pre-pays, etc. ) not because because of their horrible overall quality, but because electric does not work. Lithium batteries fail often and quickly, making warranty claims vastly exceed profit margins. Plus, it is hardly acceptable in 2019 to throw away a new car after ten short years of lithium life, assuming best case ,especially considering many young stretch-buyers have 72 to 144 month loans. Lithium laptop and phone owners understand.

There are countless, less critical problems with electric, like high charging costs from rapidly rising utility bills as e-cars start to spike home electricy rates, poor range, no infrastructure, long wait times to recharge, quiet operation, violence at recharging stations, heavy weight, and dangerous lithium fires destroying homes and out on the roads. Drivers dislike electric because they are more informed than most, which is not good for a company like Jaguar

Another too-trendy, potential mistake are the mid-engine rumors. Can a mechanical engineer please tell me the advantage of a more costly mid-engine design, especially on the maintance and corresponding poor resale side, over our current 50/50 weight distibution? Chasing expensive fads is pointless and counterproductive.

I'm afraid the facebook generation doesn't get cars, as most would rather uber. Where will this leave driver enthusiast brands like Jaguar in the near future?
 

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Old 01-14-2019, 09:09 AM
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Interesting post. Certainly electrics are not for me for all the reasons you stated.
I just heard that Jag may do a temporary shut-down due to Brexit issues, Trump issues and tariff (read tax) issues.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:55 AM
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Thanks for the interesting topic. Not sure I agree with your take on electric vehicles. Had a chance to drive the I-pace at the OC auto show and that instant torque from electric power is highly addictive, and every ICE vehicle I drove afterward felt like a dinosaur. Audi, porsche, Ford, Rivian and many others have numerous new electric models coming out soon, some with charging times under 15 mins. Like most newer technologies, there is room for improvement, but solid state battery technology is not far away and once commercialized may solve most of the problems with lithium batteries currently in use. And with technology improvements, cost will come down and profitability for automakers will not be elusive for ever.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:03 AM
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Mass produced driver cars will be a thing of the past within 20 years. (Even now, Porsche is beginning to abandon -the 2 door sportscar in favor of 4 and 5 door passenger buses). The overwhelming number of people and politicians view vehicles as unavoidable tools for convenient transportation only. Within a couple decades, driving enthusiasts will need to source their fun from specialty manufacturers and kit car builders at an extreme cost. That's assuming , of course, that people will still be allowed to pilot vehicles rather than turning control over to a computer. Then all driving will have to occur at a track. At that point, it'll be time to park the F-Type under a tombstone.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:01 AM
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I have no problem with the automotive market becoming bifurcated.

What's the problem with e-cars for those that are seeking pure mass transit with little to no emotion, and others (like us) seeking cars with some sort of emotion and experience? Does a Honda Civic owner (commuter, not enthusiast) really care nor know anything about their inline 4 engine? Doubt it -- so why not go all electric?

Same thing can be said with those purchasing a Jaguar XF or XE. To be honest, I've sat in those cars, and the interior quality, fit and finish it quite poor. People buying those cars do not necessarily care about what's under the hood. They want the brand and a power train that makes it move forwards and backwards. (Either I4, V6, or E)
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaggyx View Post
I have no problem with the automotive market becoming bifurcated.

What's the problem with e-cars for those that are seeking pure mass transit with little to no emotion, and others (like us) seeking cars with some sort of emotion and experience? Does a Honda Civic owner (commuter, not enthusiast) really care nor know anything about their inline 4 engine? Doubt it -- so why not go all electric?
For those that haven't driven an electric, you gotta try one. To say they are not for the enthusiast is nuts. And as battery technology improves, weight can come down and electric cars could have great power to weight ratios. The P100D beat a dozen "driver's cars" in motor trend's world greatest drag race last year, and if Tesla doesn't go out of business before they build their roadster (alleged 8 sec quarter mile car) that will be an interesting option. Currently, I have a deposit down on the Rivian R1-T, a truck that has a 400 mile range and goes 0-60 in 3 seconds. So cheer up mates, electric doesn't have to mean boring....
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Chawumba View Post
For those that haven't driven an electric, you gotta try one. To say they are not for the enthusiast is nuts. And as battery technology improves, weight can come down and electric cars could have great power to weight ratios. The P100D beat a dozen "driver's cars" in motor trend's world greatest drag race last year, and if Tesla doesn't go out of business before they build their roadster (alleged 8 sec quarter mile car) that will be an interesting option. Currently, I have a deposit down on the Rivian R1-T, a truck that has a 400 mile range and goes 0-60 in 3 seconds. So cheer up mates, electric doesn't have to mean boring....
"Enthusiast car" to me is NOT simply point A to point B as rapidly as possible. It definitely does not include paddle shifters and a car with poor range requiring that I find somewhere to plug it into the wall. It DOES mean three pedals and the ability to shift when I want to shift and to be able to ease out of certain situations that might require slipping the clutch in third gear. Those options are non-existent in any manner of electric or slushbox vehicle...

I like loud exhausts when done tastefully...electric lacks THAT ability as well.

Some of us have to be on the road and want to have fun while doing it. I need a vehicle that ensures I can do my travel in a very long day...and a car with less than a 500 mile range that requires plugging in will never work for me. While gas stations may be sparse in West Texas, at least I know I can find one...
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:01 PM
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I may not agree with your analysis, but I agree with your conclusion. Sports cars are a dying segment of the automotive industry and have been for a long long time. At one time the industry had a plethora of mostly accessible sports cars. The MGs, Triumphs, Sunbeams, Alfas, Lotuses, Alpines, Lancias, OSCAs of the world. But times and tastes change. Maybe if we are lucky we will see sporty versions of some personal cars like the Miata.
 

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Old 01-14-2019, 12:18 PM
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There's a whole lot to agree/disagree with in this thread.

I like my three pedals, but I drove the i-Pace and liked it too. Infrastructure is not so scarce here in the Bay Area, and while i would plan a road trip carefully, range is now at the point that it's theoretically a week's worth of commuting, given my current commute and assuming reasonable driving habits (a questionable assumption). The sales representative wanted to show off the acceleration but I passed on that. I took the same route I used when test driving the F-Type and the handling was pretty good. It pushed a little when I pushed as much as I thought prudent, but under similar circumstances the V8S I drove engaged the nannies and cut power. With the nannies off I might have ended up going backwards into the bushes though, so no complaints.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:26 PM
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Watched a video some time ago of a Tesla sedan taking on all Mustang comers, stock or modified, and the Tesla prevailed against all of them. The driver of the Tesla remarked that the only sound inside the cabin was the gravel hitting against the inside of the fenders. Wow, how stimulating to the auto enthusiast! NOT
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fujicoupe View Post
Watched a video some time ago of a Tesla sedan taking on all Mustang comers, stock or modified, and the Tesla prevailed against all of them. The driver of the Tesla remarked that the only sound inside the cabin was the gravel hitting against the inside of the fenders. Wow, how stimulating to the auto enthusiast! NOT
If that's the same video I saw, it was at a drag strip. I'm fortunate that I live in an area with many wonderful driving roads. The closest drag strip to me is more famous for its road course. I expect the outcome would be different there. Neither is the most reasonable comparison though. What's better, my torque wrench or my jack plane? Different tools for different jobs.

I don't think electric will kill the driver's car. Self-driving and driver apathy will. We're dinosaurs in a changing world.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:41 PM
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In a world where non self-driving cars are banned.....
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
Mass produced driver cars will be a thing of the past within 20 years. ... Then all driving will have to occur at a track. At that point, it'll be time to park the F-Type under a tombstone.
I am optimistic about electric performance. I think within 20 years F-type will belong in a museum because electric cars would wildly out-perform anything currently available. 2040 all-electric Corolla will blow the doors off today's Bugatti Veyron. Getting sports car in the future will be a question of taking vanilla electric drive train and putting into aerodynamic frame.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Unhingd View Post
Mass produced driver cars will be a thing of the past within 20 years. (Even now, Porsche is beginning to abandon -the 2 door sportscar in favor of 4 and 5 door passenger buses). The overwhelming number of people and politicians view vehicles as unavoidable tools for convenient transportation only. Within a couple decades, driving enthusiasts will need to source their fun from specialty manufacturers and kit car builders at an extreme cost. That's assuming , of course, that people will still be allowed to pilot vehicles rather than turning control over to a computer. Then all driving will have to occur at a track. At that point, it'll be time to park the F-Type under a tombstone.
I agree with this. 95% of cars on the road are basically used for transportation to get us from A to B. We can do this in a Toyota Prius or any number of options which will cost in the order of 10...100 times more than a Prius today. Economics always determine the direction we take. Enabling technologies are redefining basic transportation as an utility. Autonomous transporters in the future will feature different levels of luxury and amenities to satisfy our transportation needs from A to B with no ownership required in 20 to 30 years. Your transportation costs will be billed like a utility. Basic motor car ownership will be a burden and too expensive. Car manufactures which don't embrace the utility model will go bankrupt and die a slow death. All of that time spent on the freeways in California setting behind a wheel will become productive time in a mobile office transporter. There will be no need for massive amounts of parking because the transporters will only stop for maintenance. This is my vision. Enjoy your dinosaurs while you can... Great discussion.
 

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Old 01-14-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Suaro View Post
I may not agree with your analysis, but I agree with your conclusion. Sports cars are a dying segment of the automotive industry and have been for a long long time. At one time the industry had a plethora of mostly accessible sports cars. The Triumphs, Sunbeams, Alfas, Lotuses, Alpines, Lancias of the world. But times and tastes change. Maybe if we are lucky we will see sporty versions of some personal cars like the Miata.
You let nostalgia cloud your objectivity. Today we have FR-S, STI, GTI, Civic Type-R just to name few accessible offerings. Yes, top-down roadsters are becoming rare, but this does not mean that sports cars in general share this fate. 2 doors and no roof is not a hard requirement for a sports car.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:30 PM
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I agree that part, if not all of Jaguar's challenge as an enthusiasts brand, is the general reality that driving enthusiasts are dying. The upcoming generation views transpo as uber and ride sharing in a new era of strict government control. It's not looking good for our heroes.

Still, with what time may be left, I hope the old heads (assuming it is plural) at Jag will continue to cater to their 80 years' worth of proven customers. F-Type sightings are on the rise, and my local dealers cannot keep any in stock despite being $10K overpriced, IMO.
 

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Old 01-14-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chawumba View Post
Thanks for the interesting topic. Not sure I agree with your take on electric vehicles. Had a chance to drive the I-pace at the OC auto show and that instant torque from electric power is highly addictive, and every ICE vehicle I drove afterward felt like a dinosaur. Audi, porsche, Ford, Rivian and many others have numerous new electric models coming out soon, some with charging times under 15 mins. Like most newer technologies, there is room for improvement, but solid state battery technology is not far away and once commercialized may solve most of the problems with lithium batteries currently in use. And with technology improvements, cost will come down and profitability for automakers will not be elusive for ever.
I agree that electric has great straight line performance, but so would gasoline if we stipulated the same unbalanced technical trades, like a much heavier propulsion system for straight line umph.

As far as costs coming down, they need to come way down to find MSRP parity. And there is no doubt electricity rates would soar if more people adopted these power hungry cars, causing great pain to the entire population as well as EV adopters. Gasoline is only about a third more expensive to operate with essentially zero EV market share. Imagine the economic impact of 50% EVs. We'd be paying thousands more per month for all electricity, as cars, at 300W to 500W/mile driven, are more hungry than homes. If half the market had 2 EVs, it would be something like 3x the electricity demand. In struugling places like Cailfornia, it would be the death knell for affordable home utilities.
 

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Old 01-14-2019, 01:51 PM
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Again, you are confusing "can't afford sports car" and "not interested in a sports car". Young people are really got f***ed over - huge student loans, outsourcing, underemployment, and wage stagnation leaves most without any discretionary income to spend of sports cars. Look at any successful millennial, they buy and enjoy sports cars.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SinF View Post
Again, you are confusing "can't afford sports car" and "not interested in a sports car". Young people are really got f***ed over - huge student loans, outsourcing, underemployment, and wage stagnation leaves most without any discretionary income to spend of sports cars. Look at any successful millennial, they buy and enjoy sports cars.
Millennials might, though in far lower numbers IMO. I have two driving age kids, one boy, one girl, and neither desire a drivers licience. They uber cheaper.
 
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:45 PM
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Obviously those of us here represent a small number of car buyers. We don't want to drive toasters! But the future is what it is, batteries will get cheaper and last longer. The Tesla/Panasonic battery plant in Reno is on it's way to 5 million sq ft, 10 million later, and will make enough batteries for the whole world. Hopefully sports cars will be hybrids with turbo engines and quicker than anything now. the Le Ferrari is the future but in mass to make it affordable.
 

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