Next Gen F-Type Misdirection
#61
01-16-2019, 09:19 AM
A very interesting and thought provoking thread with lots of diverging thoughts!
History tends to repeat itself so let's begin with a bit of a historical perspective: Back in the day of "horse and buggies" the "horseless carriage" was considered a grave threat and wasn't exactly embraced with open arms. There were all sorts of rumors about the "evils" of mechanical vehicles and how they would hasten the demise of the then entrenched organic modes of transportation. If they had websites and forums back then you would probably hear very similar concerns.
Fast forward to today. We are currently in the age of fossil fuels which is again rapidly transforming to other cleaner forms of propulsion. Do some people on this forum feel threatened about this? Are we not unlike the folks back in the day who were challenged by the notion of a horseless carriage? I think so. Whether we like it or not, times and the world have changed. The popularity and convenience of fossil fuel powered vehicles has grown far beyond anyone's expectations. As a result we have clogged roadways and whether we like it or not, we are damaging the very environment in which we live (not just vehicles).
So, where do we go from here? I have heard the term "to each his own" mentioned on numerous occasions on this forum. There are those of us who love the sounds and smells of our ICE's. There are others who choose alternative methods of transportation that are "cleaner". Can the two cultures coexist? I think so. Folks, it will be awhile before the multi billion dollar fossil fuel automotive industry and its associated infrastructure is considered obsolete and other cleaner methods of propulsion are developed and optimized. So I wouldn't be too concerned today that we are on the crest of an EV revolution.
So enjoy our F-Types and don't worry that they will be considered obsolete any time soon. I personally applaud and embrace the new technologies of today. For one there is a potential silver lining to it all for ICE owners. If you subscribe to the economics of "Supply and Demand" then the proliferation of alternative fueled vehicles will inevitably decrease the current demand for fossil fuels which is falling by the day and are currently being produced at record levels. So if some of that demand goes away - what do you think will happen to the price of gas?
If all else fails, we can all become curmudgeons like those before us who (to this day) totally rejected the "horseless carriages" and remained with the tried and proven horse and buggies of yesteryear. Then we will all be referred to as the current day F-Type "Amish" or "Quakers".
It's going to be okay. Change is inevitable so get used to it!
Just my simple perspective...
History tends to repeat itself so let's begin with a bit of a historical perspective: Back in the day of "horse and buggies" the "horseless carriage" was considered a grave threat and wasn't exactly embraced with open arms. There were all sorts of rumors about the "evils" of mechanical vehicles and how they would hasten the demise of the then entrenched organic modes of transportation. If they had websites and forums back then you would probably hear very similar concerns.
Fast forward to today. We are currently in the age of fossil fuels which is again rapidly transforming to other cleaner forms of propulsion. Do some people on this forum feel threatened about this? Are we not unlike the folks back in the day who were challenged by the notion of a horseless carriage? I think so. Whether we like it or not, times and the world have changed. The popularity and convenience of fossil fuel powered vehicles has grown far beyond anyone's expectations. As a result we have clogged roadways and whether we like it or not, we are damaging the very environment in which we live (not just vehicles).
So, where do we go from here? I have heard the term "to each his own" mentioned on numerous occasions on this forum. There are those of us who love the sounds and smells of our ICE's. There are others who choose alternative methods of transportation that are "cleaner". Can the two cultures coexist? I think so. Folks, it will be awhile before the multi billion dollar fossil fuel automotive industry and its associated infrastructure is considered obsolete and other cleaner methods of propulsion are developed and optimized. So I wouldn't be too concerned today that we are on the crest of an EV revolution.
So enjoy our F-Types and don't worry that they will be considered obsolete any time soon. I personally applaud and embrace the new technologies of today. For one there is a potential silver lining to it all for ICE owners. If you subscribe to the economics of "Supply and Demand" then the proliferation of alternative fueled vehicles will inevitably decrease the current demand for fossil fuels which is falling by the day and are currently being produced at record levels. So if some of that demand goes away - what do you think will happen to the price of gas?
If all else fails, we can all become curmudgeons like those before us who (to this day) totally rejected the "horseless carriages" and remained with the tried and proven horse and buggies of yesteryear. Then we will all be referred to as the current day F-Type "Amish" or "Quakers".
It's going to be okay. Change is inevitable so get used to it!
Just my simple perspective...
#62
01-16-2019, 09:30 AM
Agree, the cost of electricity is a non issue! Rooftop solar panels can provide 100% of your daily needs as they do for me - including charging a Tesla Model 3 that is driven 100 miles per day at least, home needs and a 240V pool pump that runs 6 hrs. a day. The next argument will probably be "what about at night?" Answer: I generate surplus power from the panels that is held in "trust" by the utility from which I draw after the sun goes down. I always generate a surplus. There are Tesla and other brands of Powerwalls too that store electricity. The comments about charging infrastructure could be an issue for apartment and condo dwellers however, grant you that. But for homeowners my wall charger powers up the Model 3 at 48 miles per hour charged. Also, I have used the Superchargers before and the longest wait was 15 minutes - that's here in San Diego. Progress gentlemen, it's progress.
#63
01-16-2019, 09:55 AM
Veteran Member
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#66
01-16-2019, 10:38 AM
Senior Member
Rooftop solar panels can provide 100% of your daily needs as they do for me - including charging a Tesla Model 3 that is driven 100 miles per day at least, home needs and a 240V pool pump that runs 6 hrs. a day. The next argument will probably be "what about at night?" Answer: I generate surplus power from the panels that is held in "trust" by the utility from which I draw after the sun goes down.
The reason that electric costs are an issue is that the upcoming huge invest costs of upgrading the grid to accommodate electric car charging and more residential solar (feeding backward into the system at peak solar hours), plus the high costs of silly subsidies for rooftop solar is significant. The new Audi and porsche fast charging systems can charge the car in 12 minutes - but require 900 volts and 500 amps of power! This will be expensive to build a network with this kind of power demand.
Glad you enjoy your solar, but keep in mind you likely benefited from generous tax credits that made the system less ridiculously expensive than it really costs, and you may also be getting a sweet net meter deal that is does not reflect the true costs that others getting systems now pay. I don't hate solar at all, and I too took the free money to install my silly rooftop system, but let's be realistic - it belongs on large scale efficient commercial projects, not hugely cost inefficient, taxpayer subsidized rooftop systems. Everyone purchasing $20,000 rooftop solar systems and expensive $5000+ battery backup systems is not a practical or cost effective way to produce power.
Last edited by Chawumba; 01-16-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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SinF (01-16-2019)
#67
01-16-2019, 11:26 AM
Veteran Member
#68
01-16-2019, 11:52 AM
https://www.globalresearch.ca/28-sig...ushima/5355280
This is a direct consequence of meeting increasing electric power needs.
Last edited by JIMLIGHTA; 01-16-2019 at 11:55 AM.
#69
01-16-2019, 12:08 PM
Agree, the cost of electricity is a non issue! Rooftop solar panels can provide 100% of your daily needs as they do for me - including charging a Tesla Model 3 that is driven 100 miles per day at least, home needs and a 240V pool pump that runs 6 hrs. a day. The next argument will probably be "what about at night?" Answer: I generate surplus power from the panels that is held in "trust" by the utility from which I draw after the sun goes down. I always generate a surplus. There are Tesla and other brands of Powerwalls too that store electricity. The comments about charging infrastructure could be an issue for apartment and condo dwellers however, grant you that. But for homeowners my wall charger powers up the Model 3 at 48 miles per hour charged. Also, I have used the Superchargers before and the longest wait was 15 minutes - that's here in San Diego. Progress gentlemen, it's progress.
Regardless, I can't buy a car with a 10 year battery life that is cost prohibitive to replace, dragging my out of warranty resale value close enough to call $0. Look at the awful stats of the aging Nissan Leaf.
EV is the nightmare scenario for a typical F-Type use case.
Last edited by JIMLIGHTA; 01-16-2019 at 12:10 PM.
#70
01-16-2019, 12:39 PM
Eh, not so much, Solar panels, without artificial subsidies, have a 25 year payback and a 25 year lifespan. They are cost neutral outside of legislative cronyism. Maybe they'll improve over time, but so will alternatives.
Regardless, I can't buy a car with a 10 year battery life that is cost prohibitive to replace, dragging my out of warranty resale value close enough to call $0. Look at the awful stats of the aging Nissan Leaf.
EV is the nightmare scenario for a typical F-Type use case.
Regardless, I can't buy a car with a 10 year battery life that is cost prohibitive to replace, dragging my out of warranty resale value close enough to call $0. Look at the awful stats of the aging Nissan Leaf.
EV is the nightmare scenario for a typical F-Type use case.
#71
01-16-2019, 01:35 PM
Veteran Member
I might have agreed before this. The reactor's Cesium 137 fingerprints don't lie...
https://www.globalresearch.ca/28-sig...ushima/5355280
This is a direct consequence of meeting increasing electric power needs.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/28-sig...ushima/5355280
This is a direct consequence of meeting increasing electric power needs.
I do however understand why Global research at the bottom of the article writes:
"Disclaimer: The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible for any inaccurate or incorrect statement in this article."
Last edited by Arne; 01-16-2019 at 01:40 PM.
#72
01-16-2019, 01:51 PM
Veteran Member
Over here the subsidies amount to probably 20% or so of the cost of a PV system from memories (they are actually credits that are traded like shares, so it depends on how they are trading at the time), and the system will usually pay for itself in about 6 years. Battery cost is improving and so is panel performance, ultimately the market is bearing a 6 year payback so the suppliers are pretty much adjusting profit to deliver that. In my case, I overspent to get a battery which doesnt makes as high a return but I was sick of paying about $4K a year in power so I thought to take all of the punishment at once. My bills have dropped by about $3500 a year, so the payback should be 5 to 6 years, but some of that is by putting in LED lighting as well. I'm a big fan, and can see one electric car in the family eventually if only because it is nice to be part of a solution, but I would still prefer noise and gears for my driving.
#73
01-16-2019, 02:57 PM
Over here the subsidies amount to probably 20% or so of the cost of a PV system from memories (they are actually credits that are traded like shares, so it depends on how they are trading at the time), and the system will usually pay for itself in about 6 years. Battery cost is improving and so is panel performance, ultimately the market is bearing a 6 year payback so the suppliers are pretty much adjusting profit to deliver that. In my case, I overspent to get a battery which doesnt makes as high a return but I was sick of paying about $4K a year in power so I thought to take all of the punishment at once. My bills have dropped by about $3500 a year, so the payback should be 5 to 6 years, but some of that is by putting in LED lighting as well. I'm a big fan, and can see one electric car in the family eventually if only because it is nice to be part of a solution, but I would still prefer noise and gears for my driving.
#74
01-16-2019, 03:05 PM
This contradicts every facts that I have read about this issue, and I am not shure this former attorney Michael Snyder, that makes a living of scaring people with his doomsday prophecies, are telling the true facts.
I do however understand why Global research at the bottom of the article writes:
"Disclaimer: The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible for any inaccurate or incorrect statement in this article."
I do however understand why Global research at the bottom of the article writes:
"Disclaimer: The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible for any inaccurate or incorrect statement in this article."
#75
01-16-2019, 03:13 PM
Veteran Member
#76
01-16-2019, 03:31 PM
Veteran Member
https://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiat...g-sources.html
I can't see how we can produce enough electricity for future needs, when/if we stop using oil/gas/coal, without a high increase in the production of nuclear energy.
It's not perfect, but few things are. Without nuclear energy, the math simply don't add up. It's the least bad of all possible options.
Last edited by Arne; 01-16-2019 at 03:52 PM.
#77
01-16-2019, 04:29 PM
Veteran Member
We (in Australia) had a point where the government subsidised huge feed in tariffs for solar electricity put back into the grid, in fact it was about double what you were paying so a lot of people even with small PV systems who werent using the power in the day were getting credit bills, and those prices were locked in for a number of years. Of course the government underestimated the takeup, so all of the sudden they have had to increase power prices to cover what they are paying at the subsidised rate until it is grandfathered out (d'oh!) and really I dont think it was as much of a success as it should have been, because of lot of the systems are 3 - 5kw systems which arent really contibuting a lot to the grid. With mine (12kw system) the cost was about $18K with a battery which was really just an indulgence because the numbers for batteries dont work yet (but then we on the F Type forums shouldnt be critical of indulgences, should we, hmm?), I pay abouyt 28 cents a kwH for power from the grid and get about 15c a kwH for what I put in. It is a really interesting exercise, and it actually does make you feel like a bit of a green hero. For the first year I was monitoring it closely as you get tracking ability and charts, it drove my wife mad "Hmmm, I see you had a cup of tea at 1.25 and 3.20PM and ran the whole house airconditioner until 5 - you know that drains the battery, right?. And can you run the dishwasher in the middle of the day - just put up with the smell". Frosty silence.
#78
01-16-2019, 04:34 PM
Senior Member
You don't even need to step out in the sun. There are plenty of natural irridation sources in nature - from soil, different kind of rocks and food - bananas being one of the best known.
https://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiat...g-sources.html
I can't see how we can produce enough electricity for future needs, when/if we stop using oil/gas/coal, without a high increase in the production of nuclear energy.
It's not perfect, but few things are. Without nuclear energy, the math simply don't add up. It's the least bad of all possible options.
https://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiat...g-sources.html
I can't see how we can produce enough electricity for future needs, when/if we stop using oil/gas/coal, without a high increase in the production of nuclear energy.
It's not perfect, but few things are. Without nuclear energy, the math simply don't add up. It's the least bad of all possible options.
I am with Arne. Nothing is 100% safe and Nuclear energy isn't this horrible nightmare. Would I want a home next door to a nuclear power plant? Nope, but there are plenty of safer places to put them.
So I just looked at my electric bill, my house uses 89.7kWh daily. With CT rates, that runs $19.73 daily. or $7202.91 a year
I invested into a 20KW system (70X300W panels) and a 20kW storage cabinet. Total finished cost was $21,000
I am 100% self sufficient in terms of electric needs, I have the grid as backup or for peak needs.
That investment is fully amortized in 3 years.
#79
01-16-2019, 05:58 PM
What about how these batteries are made????
The elements needed for lithium batteries needs to be mined & happens in countries with no labor laws. I personally have no problem with e-cars, heck I imagine I’ll eventually own one. Living in California I just love the hypocrisy of the tree huggers who look & talk down on you for owning a sports car but could care less that in many cases children are working the mines (no different then diamonds). Imagine the cost of the batteries if they actually paid living wages to the poor people mining the elements.
#80
01-16-2019, 06:29 PM
Veteran Member
Sorry to keep this up, but actually Australia is a huge supplier of lithium, as I understand it we supply around half of world consumption of lithium. I know way more about it than I'd like to because one of my brothers bought shares in Australian lithium companies and craps on about it at every possible opportunity and then some. Most Australian mining workers earn a lot more than the average wage, around $110K per annum against the average wage of somewhere under $70K, and now that the boom has settled a bit they are still doing well and have the protection of particularly virulent (and occasionally violent) unions. I can tell you that you dont need to waste your sympathy on these Australian miners' conditions although the "fly in fly out" lifestyle wouldnt be my cup of tea. If you have morality concerns about the conditions of lithium miners, then make sure that you buy batteries made with Aussie lithium!