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Intercooler Upgrade.....laminova

 
  #21  
Old 08-19-2015, 02:36 PM
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For the past couple of years, Ive been researching many alternative ways to improve the supercharging system on the 4.2 STR engines. What Ive learned is that the way Jaguar had to fit in the Eaton M112 onto the 4.2 motor was one big compromise. Very limited space on top of the engine, the back of the engine is tucked below the windshield cowl and very close to the firewall. To top it off, the design of the AJ-V8 engine has 2 big coolant ears coming out of the heads that use up most of the space in the front of the valley in the area where they chose to stick the water pump coolant inlet. They did a fantastic job of fitting the supercharger considering the block design they had to work with.

I have tried fitting several different superchargers onto the engine to no avail. What AVOS has done, fitting the KB supercharger and his other changes is about the best one will be able to achieve without performing major surgery on the block and heads.

I am contemplating modifying a pair of heads by cutting off the projections, and then running a remote electric water pump. This way I can open up the area in the front top of the engine.

Jaguar changed the design on the AJ-133 engine so that they could use a front fed supercharger. More direct intake air into the SC rather than the 2 very restrictive 90 degree bends in the back of the 4.2L SC engines.

Attached is an image of the parts that have to be modified in order to fit a front feed SC, or use other more common off-the-shelf superchargers.

(By the way, I believe you purchased the longer Laminova cores. They do make short ones that almost fit into a modified Jaguar intercooler. I looked into this over a year ago and decided it was too much work, versus the miniscule gain these intercoolers would provide.)
Redesigning the intercoolers would be a fun project, but it solves only one of the problems with the stock design.
 
Attached Thumbnails Intercooler Upgrade.....laminova-aj34-front.jpg  
  #22  
Old 08-20-2015, 08:34 AM
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more reason for twin turbochargers, and intercoolers.

far less machining and modifications.

properly done turbos do work very well, turbo technology has come a long way in recent yrs!
 
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  #23  
Old 10-28-2015, 10:35 AM
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Any updates on Laminova based cores for the intercooler?
 
  #24  
Old 10-29-2015, 09:26 AM
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Not yet. I have some crazy planned. I have to work out the details.
 
  #25  
Old 01-22-2016, 06:28 AM
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Any updates GGabriel?
 
  #26  
Old 01-23-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Panthro View Post
Any updates GGabriel?
Progress has been slow. I've been working 6 days a week and have been too burned out by I'm I get home. Even with Sat being a half day, my free time is limited with my weekend time with my children.

I did pick up the next few piecesof my Jaguar SVDP puzzle. One being the under blower splitter that guides the compressed air into the intercoolers. The other (drum roll please is a big TVS supercharger!

It tool awhile to find the right one but I finally have one. The only thing it needs is a new coupler, which are reasonably priced and easy to replace. Techs won't rebuild them when they become loose, just order a new one and discard the old ones.
.
I'll try my best to get a rear wheel dyno figure before i install the engine. The TVS is taller than the old Roots one that's on now. I just need to decide which direction to go, under or over the blower?

I really like the look of the intercoolers that came out on the later models (F Type, XJR), but like the factory 2001 intercooler look. We'll see.
 
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2016, 01:26 PM
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You know I did a very cheap and very effective intercooling upgrades with simply adding a water mister spraying on the intercooler radiator and a 10" pusher fan. This made a HUGE difference and was very simple, cheap, and reversible. The misting of the radiator lowers the air temp passing over the radiator by more than 30 degrees F.
 
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  #28  
Old 06-10-2016, 09:11 AM
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I love that idea Waterdragon.

It's funny when you can only see a solution though a narrow lens, missing out on the simplest. Thirty dregees...Lol...That's a huge difference! I bet a 30 temp drop is as good as you could get from the most efficient intercooler (aftercooler) design.

You seem to have some drag racing background. I remember hearing about intercooler and radiator sprayers in Mustangs & Fast Fords magazine that I used to follow back in the (Telegraph road 351 Mustang) years of my youth. This mag did the best build ups with before and after testing, including drag test afterwards.

I bet a 30 temp drop is as good as the most efficient intercooler (aftercooler) design. Thanks for reminding me the most complex ideas are not the only way to attain the same results.





Originally Posted by WaterDragon View Post
You know I did a very cheap and very effective intercooling upgrades with simply adding a water mister spraying on the intercooler radiator and a 10" pusher fan. This made a HUGE difference and was very simple, cheap, and reversible. The misting of the radiator lowers the air temp passing over the radiator by more than 30 degrees F.
 
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2016, 07:13 PM
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it has been used for years on rally cars, misting intercooler rad!

water/alky injection since WW2 german aircarft.
 
  #30  
Old 06-28-2016, 07:28 AM
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Piston engine development seemed to reach its zenith in WWII days. It seemed like they were trying anything and everything to to hp power. I was big into WWII before cars and motorcycles.

Once I started getting hot rodding cars, my friends and I were always amazed about how advanced WWII fighter plane engine design was. With everthing that we dreamt of putting on our cars that could increase power had already been invented and used.

It's been since the 90's since I've seen him on the ground but still remember listening to the soft spoken Jack Roush that about his Mustang (the one with wings).

With his massive background in engine building I had asked what were some of the biggest improvements he did to the engine, since technology has improved by leaps and bounds (thinking he must have changed and improved every part).

How long ago was it, that the R.R. engine was released? Was it in the late1930's or early 40's? Either way it's one OLD design. I was thinking Jack would start talking about improving flow, different cams, coating every moving parts, ext...

Spark plugs. That's the only thing he could find after tearing it apart. And I don't even think the new custom plugs were any better, they were just cheaper.

I was stunned. I really thought he'd go off talking about all the things he saw inside the massive Merlin that he could improve on.



Nope. Just spark plugs. Saying everything was already done back then so well that there was nothing left to improve on.

I still find this hard to believe. I'm not sure if there were little things (high performance coatings and such) he just did without thinking but as far as improving flow, he was pretty clear the original designers were exceptional.

My father was a WWII Veteran from the European Theater and my mother a Rosie the Riveter (first on the P-47 canopy then on the B-24 Belly Turret). So I grew up with lots and lots of cool first hand stories.

Talking to Jack Roush about his P-51 years and years ago....and then seeing him fly overhead in it once or twice a year is still really cool. Last time it was when I was putting in gas while in Northville. Really distinct sound.

 
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  #31  
Old 06-28-2016, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GGabriel View Post
I love that idea Waterdragon.

It's funny when you can only see a solution though a narrow lens, missing out on the simplest. Thirty dregees...Lol...That's a huge difference! I bet a 30 temp drop is as good as you could get from the most efficient intercooler (aftercooler) design.

You seem to have some drag racing background. I remember hearing about intercooler and radiator sprayers in Mustangs & Fast Fords magazine that I used to follow back in the (Telegraph road 351 Mustang) years of my youth. This mag did the best build ups with before and after testing, including drag test afterwards.

I bet a 30 temp drop is as good as the most efficient intercooler (aftercooler) design. Thanks for reminding me the most complex ideas are not the only way to attain the same results.



The 10" pusher fan made a difference.

I used a pressure switch set to I think 4 psi to trigger the water spray onto the intercooler. Very simple and cheap set up. I can't imagine better bang for the buck.
 
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  #32  
Old 06-29-2016, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by WaterDragon View Post
You know I did a very cheap and very effective intercooling upgrades with simply adding a water mister spraying on the intercooler radiator and a 10" pusher fan. This made a HUGE difference and was very simple, cheap, and reversible. The misting of the radiator lowers the air temp passing over the radiator by more than 30 degrees F.
I don't want to detract from what you posted, but you have posted absolutely no supporting data of what a "HUGE" difference is.
Where was the 30 degree drop measured? Back of the radiator air temp? or the outlet air temp of the inlet port air going into the cylinders. Did you put the car on a dyno before and during spraying water and then see the power gain? Do you use water on a cold day or hot? Did you measure the actual differential coolant temperatures between the outlet of the radiator, inlet of the intercooler, and then outlet water temp. of the intercooler? How is the water sprayed in front of the radiator? Is it distributed evenly across the total surface area of the radiator? Are you using tap water or distilled water?
I hate to think of the mineral deposits on the radiator fins using my tap water.
- What size water container do you use and what is the flow rate?
- Do you spray continuously or only during hard acceleration. Seems like one could go through a lot of water...
- If the water spray automatic base on pressure, what pressure? water or manifold?


Provide technical and supporting data and I might believe what you posted.
 

Last edited by Tijoe; 06-29-2016 at 11:29 AM. Reason: add more questions
  #33  
Old 06-29-2016, 05:45 PM
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HUH ? WTF.

like said ,, been used for yrs by Euro/ Rally cars, and drag race cars(water mist spraying the intercooler core).

there is much information on net, search!!
 
  #34  
Old 06-29-2016, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
HUH ? WTF.

like said ,, been used for yrs by Euro/ Rally cars, and drag race cars(water mist spraying the intercooler core).

there is much information on net, search!!
Yes, used for years, doesn't mean it works or does much overall for the average supercharged car.

Yes, there is a lot of information on the internet. More negative than positive, other than people trying to sell snake oil.
Very little published about actual power gains for street cars. Found only a few real numbers posted for drag racing on hot days under specific conditions.

Post some links to published data and you might sell me on it. Just saying it has been used for years, doesn't mean squat!

WTF back to you!
 

Last edited by Tijoe; 06-29-2016 at 09:26 PM. Reason: spelling
  #35  
Old 06-30-2016, 09:32 AM
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Hey Ronbros,

I've read all your post and respect all the mods you've done in the past. Thanks for sharing that tip. I'd completely forgotten it (my ex wife threw out all my car mags, especially my Mustang & Fast Ford magazine collection that had data like that.

Freon and No2 was also used as medium to take down intercooler temps. They have specialized plates that attach to the radiator to give optimal dispersion.

I don't remember anything special about the water, but it seems like mixing it with alcohol was one thing they tried. It could even have been windshield washer fluid? Does that sound familiar?

Wish I had those old magazines. Much more fun to page though them then searching online on my phone. Can't do it on my work computer and that seems to be were I live.

I did just get my stretched driveshaft back for my 900 to 1,400 engine swap project for my 900 Eliminator this morning. Planning on swapping the engine this 3 day off weekend.

Then I can get back to my Big Jag Project. Modding the TVS blower to fit my SVDP 4.0 Jag

Originally Posted by ronbros View Post
HUH ? WTF.

like said ,, been used for yrs by Euro/ Rally cars, and drag race cars(water mist spraying the intercooler core).

there is much information on net, search!!
 
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  #36  
Old 06-30-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by GGabriel View Post
Hey Ronbros,

I've read all your post and respect all the mods you've done in the past. Thanks for sharing that tip. I'd completely forgotten it (my ex wife threw out all my car mags, especially my Mustang & Fast Ford magazine collection that had data like that.

Freon and No2 was also used as medium to take down intercooler temps. They have specialized plates that attach to the radiator to give optimal dispersion.

I don't remember anything special about the water, but it seems like mixing it with alcohol was one thing they tried. It could even have been windshield washer fluid? Does that sound familiar?

Wish I had those old magazines. Much more fun to page though them then searching online on my phone. Can't do it on my work computer and that seems to be were I live.

I did just get my stretched driveshaft back for my 900 to 1,400 engine swap project for my 900 Eliminator this morning. Planning on swapping the engine this 3 day off weekend.

Then I can get back to my Big Jag Project. Modding the TVS blower to fit my SVDP 4.0 Jag
.

sounds like you having fun!

i been at Roots supercharging since 1962(small block chevy).

then went into a regular job,boring,, but around 1969/70, turbod a 351 ford was amazed at the power potential, times changed and so did i !

1984 good job came along,plenty money available!

a big block 540 cu.in" twin boat engines, twin turbos and twin INTERCOOLERS water to air all custom made.

anyway testing boat made the factory props useless, give it throttle and they would just spin and cavitate.

new bigger wheels on her and owner was very happy. paid well and i learned a lot more about forced induction systems.

then on to Hi-performance Diesel engines, lots more knowledge to be learned!

but in todays performance engines, the internet teaches things so fast and so many people into it, of course Electronics have really made old ideas practical/usefull.

funny you mention R/R merlin,, old stories say the USA Packard Merlins were better engines because of GB factories getting bombed and slowed production.

plus our factories were new and more up to date and manufacturing methods.

plus a big breakthru was a better carburetor than GB/UK had.

but thats another story for another day!

the usual BS about mine is bigger than yours!!.. LOL.

couple pix of 1710 Allison engine ,old P40, i really liked that engine, after war, they found it was as good as Merlin 1650, just needed proper turbocharging system!

#2 pic is the actual Roush P-51 at Oshkosh air show.
 
Attached Thumbnails Intercooler Upgrade.....laminova-pix-oshkosh-air-show-012.jpg   Intercooler Upgrade.....laminova-pix-oshkosh-air-show-015.jpg  
  #37  
Old 06-30-2016, 10:32 PM
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Cool pix of Jac's Mustang. He's another character filled with amazing stories. My co-worked is his age and used to live down the street from him.

He had a Cobra (the 2 seater) that he brought home and offered my friend the keys to take his wife out in. My friends a super cool guy, French Russian but in the States since he was a kid.

Really into cars and was overwelmed Jac trusted him enough to loan him the keys. Something was wrong with it and Vlad couldn't shift out of second gear so he just drove around the block and returned, which surprised Jac, who thought Vlad didn't like it.

After hearing he couldn't shift it, Jac took off his jacket, parked it half on a curb and crawled under it. He did something to the linkage fixing it and then insisting Vlad take it out again . Vlad lover it of course but the real story was how down to Earth he is, for such a famous and wealthy man.

I know I'm spelling his name improperly

I heard that story about the Merlins years ago . I met a cool old black guy that had worked the (Hamtramck line?) He said the same thing. Not only more power but a heck of a lot more of them. As in a shocking amount.

I think he mentioned the plants in England being bombed constantly and needed a new-safer place to build them. It was years ago and I just got back from my 4th 13 hour day. I'm not thinking clearly....

The people in charge of this American built Merlin program (very vocally) doubted that the black American line worker could build such a technological engine that was hand built by skilled English builders.

Back then the Merlin was like a Jet engine from a Blackbird.

The Americans did it the Henry Ford way using the (considered wild) line building method. He said not only did the (made by black Americans) make more power on the engine dyno but that they were smother running.

I guess the real shocker was the huge production increase using a line asembly method. It was something crazy like a 4 or 5 fold increase. Neat old man.

He was laughing softly as he told it. Like he was rembering the "fu♡☆ You" him and his friends showed everyone that had argued it couldn't be done.

I don't know the history of the American made Merlins but it sure made me want one

Doesn't Leno have one in a Hot Rod? You can't mistake the sound they make.
 
  #38  
Old 07-01-2016, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GGabriel View Post
Hey Ronbros,

I've read all your post and respect all the mods you've done in the past. Thanks for sharing that tip. I'd completely forgotten it (my ex wife threw out all my car mags, especially my Mustang & Fast Ford magazine collection that had data like that.

Freon and No2 was also used as medium to take down intercooler temps. They have specialized plates that attach to the radiator to give optimal dispersion.

I don't remember anything special about the water, but it seems like mixing it with alcohol was one thing they tried. It could even have been windshield washer fluid? Does that sound familiar?

Wish I had those old magazines. Much more fun to page though them then searching online on my phone. Can't do it on my work computer and that seems to be were I live.

I did just get my stretched driveshaft back for my 900 to 1,400 engine swap project for my 900 Eliminator this morning. Planning on swapping the engine this 3 day off weekend.

Then I can get back to my Big Jag Project. Modding the TVS blower to fit my SVDP 4.0 Jag
.

quick follow on the N20 nitrous or Freon on the intercooler rad, is the almost instant temp change, you had better have a good ECU, and controls, that can change the A/F ratio and make the engine smooth between temp changes rapidly, along with ignition timing changes, also control boost all things at same time!

again its all about the tuning.
 
  #39  
Old 07-01-2016, 05:33 PM
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interesting you mention a black friend who worked at Packard for Merlin engines!

i was only 17yrs old 1952, and black guy who liked cars, talked and showed me how the new Chysler HEMI chambered engines worked , was amazed at his knowledge, mechanical things etc.

back then in north east, i was not aware of any racisl problems, it seems it came to be in the 1960s and onward! dont know who started it and pushed into the terrible mess it is today

he was i nice guy and went on to be an engineer in Boston Mass.
 

Last edited by ronbros; 07-01-2016 at 05:39 PM.
  #40  
Old 07-19-2016, 02:32 AM
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"Provide technical and supporting data and I might believe what you posted."


News flash, We don't NEED to prove anything to you.
 

Last edited by WaterDragon; 07-19-2016 at 01:12 PM.

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