i've recently installed a 123ignition distributor in my other vintage sports car, an MG TD, and have found it to be quite an improvement. and am considering one for my '67 mk2, if and when i EVER get it back from the engine rebuilders, that is.

soliciting opinions... first hand experience not required.

 

See post No 14.

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/m...remove-271981/

 

thanks, Glyn.

 

"soliciting opinions... first hand experience not required"

I researched the distributor options some time ago to get away from the points in OEM distributors. Early electronic kits and distributors were just points elimination and did not offer true improved ignition.
After 1967 you started to have OEM distributors and carburetors configured to pass smog rules. I picked a Mallory unilite distributor for my 3.8s and a Pertronix distributor for my 1968 XKE, was happy with both.
Later on my 1984 XJ6, still to this day needing a bi-annual smog check in California, I overhauled the OEM distributor and the Ignition amplifier. Installed the Pertronix upgraded GM 4 pin ignition module (P/N D7200) and the Pertronix .60 ohm coil. I am very satisfied with this setup. Was able to open spark plug gap by .05 over book.

1. The key to ignition system performance is the lowest ohm coil you can run without burning up the points or electronic pickup in the distributor. With points, a 3.0 ohm coil was as low as possible. Modern 123 systems recommend a 1.4 ohm coil and Pertronix (II or III) a .6 ohm coil.

2. Next is the advance curves; they were the best performance Jaguar could do on the dyno before 1968 smog rules . Compression ratios came down and Octane was lowered over time. 123 has two distributors; one you select from 6 or 7 preloaded curves; the programable unit requires you to determine the vacuum advance and mechanical advance from OEM data, making allowances for your compression ratio and fuel octane availability, you input the desired curves into the distributor. (if you are a tuner at heart, you will love this feature.). The HP Pertronix Distributors have been preprogramed, and very close to Original Jaguar 1967 curves, with final adjustment of (1 or 2 degrees) in your initial static timing.

My opinion is that 123 advance curves (selectable) are too retarded between 1200 and 2400 RPM and too advance between 2800 and 3600 RPM,,, Some have reported pigging on any curve but 0.
The programable unit doesn't advance soon enough leaving transition from idle to acceleration too retarded,
I have attached some curves from previous reviews.
Any one that has upgraded from points to a 123 system, with a better coil, should, see the improvement of the higher current flow thru the new coil.
Rgds
David

 

Thanks for that. Most interesting. I run a Pertronix Ignitor with their low impedance coil (debranded) but a stock fully rebuilt Lucas 22 D 6 distributor set up on a good old Sun machine that I will not change for concours reasons. (still positive earth). SA Judges never seem to notice the coil now with it's correct Lucas sticker on it correctly positioned





Work in progress. Many corrections after this & pre correct decals which I still have not finished attaching but I had to show the Judges that I had all the correct ones to satisfy them which was achieved. Even have the correct fan motor markings thanks to to Alan Wiedie who is a member here but spends most of his time on the S Type Register. He even found me the correct terminal cover for the washer bottle that is now rotated to correct position.

 

ditto.

 

Refresh page for edits.

 

It's funny. Some people frown on Pertronix as a brand & swear by Lumenition. Maybe in their early days the quality of their products was suspect. Not today IMHO.

 

It's going to take a long time, if ever to trust Pertronix and Lumenition ever again.
All eventually failed and left me stranded, one Pertronix unit was dead out of the box.
Maybe one day, I don't know, but I will always carry the points and hardware so I don't get stranded.

When they were working, the timing light was not stable, the Pertronix unit being the worst when compared to the Lumenition set up.

Both were on my Bentley, and when I put the duel point set-up back in, the timing light was stable _ or as stable as things were going to get with the advanced weights and springs.
There was some shaft wear on the advance weights, but with new springs, some cleaning up and lubrication, things worked well enough.

On my Jag, the distributor is worn, but the car idles nice at 600 rpm, just keeping things clean and lubricated is most important.
The car will not run properly with sticky and dirty weights.

You've probably seen this video.

 

I went for the full monty and fitted a distributorless ignition system with a crank triggered pickup and coilpack. Timing is rock solid and fully programmable. It's based on the Ford EDIS system then never seems to fail. I see plenty of 30 year old vehicles in the junkyard with their original modules. Compared to the original distributor the torque increase was noticeable.

A long thread about it and ignition maps for 3.8 and 4.2 engines here: https://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=437

 

I understand that Jeff. It can take years to build a brand & one f-up to destroy all that equity. I have a spare built up distributor with new points, capacitor etc that I don't carry in the car but admit to carrying a towing service card in my glove box. Flat bed towing costs F/A in SA it's so competitive. Not much more than the Jag would guzzle gas wise.

 

Jeff, I shared your early skepticism; I still have the spare Mallory pickup in original package that I carried in my Glove Box. With the XKE went all in with AAA 100 mile towing option, which I had to use several times. Did not want to be on a Sothern California freeway side, fussing with the distributor on a 100 degree day.

Most of the bad reports I was reading about were from the new electronic pickups put into a tired Lucas distributors to eliminate the points; still had the corroded advance mechanisms and the stretched springs. Additionally, people were not paying the extra for the recommended coil, they went cheep with any brand, any rating.

The Mallory unit was quite advanced with adjustable Vacuum advance, adjustable max Mechanical advance stops, and three different spring sets to adjust the Curve rate.

Many of the early Pertronix igniter models installed into OEM distributors were fried, just like the points, if you left the ignition on without the engine running.

I think all the electric units are much improved, with desirable features and protection for adverse voltage or wrong polarity.

Rgds
David

 

I left this out of earlier post: 123 tuning options for programable distributor.... : automatic transmission jaguars need to be set up differently than manual transmissions.

The automatic transmission curves require peak torque to be reached at a lower RPM than the Manual transmissions. Distributors may have same model number, but different part number.
123 special tuning vacuum advance input should use jaguar data: 4 speed transmissions used a 7 - 14 - 8 vacuum advance curve,
and the automatic transmission used a 5 -12 - 8 vacuum advance curve.
Rgds
David

 

This really worries me. It's basically saying that we have something significantly wrong in the engine and/or transmission management.

The only way ignition timing should be set for an engine under any sort of load is at minimum advance for best torque (MBT). The only exceptions to that are (1) if it takes the engine into a condition where it knocks and (2) achieving a good stable idle. MBT gives best economy and performance. Adjusting timing to move the peak torque is actually reducing torque below the best the engine can deliver at some speeds and thereby reducing economy and performance.

These compromise systems are acceptable if you want something that looks original and probably does a little better, but if you want a genuine improvement follow Jagboi and with his 'full monty' distributorless, crank triggered electronics.

 

"but if you want a genuine improvement follow Jagboi and with his 'full monty' distributorless, crank triggered electronics."
That's fine if you know what you're doing!

 

You could say that about any task on an old car from adjusting dwell to rebuilding an engine, knowledge is needed. However, the thread I linked to has all the detail you need. This isn't a new idea, people have been using the Ford EDIS in other cars for at least 20 years, so there is much information on it out there.

 

"This really worries me. It's basically saying that we have something significantly wrong in the engine and/or transmission management."

50 years ago Jaguar was cutting edge on low cost performance cars/engines.. 10 years behind GM in automatic transmissions.

Automatic trans were for US sales and with the reduce number of gears, torque converters, with lock up. (not serious enthusiast). Still the economy was from early shifting, while driver was otherwise preoccupied.
The 4 speed manual transmission, armature Grand Prix Driver " Hair on fire - redline shifting " was getting the most out of the engine possible.
So there were compromises Jaguar made to keep things affordable and appealing to variety of drivers.

With 20 year old Ford ignition Technology, active exhaust analyzers, hooked to a MegaSquirt engine management system, you can have it personalized for your taste.

Yes, I bought all, but didn't get it installed as got distracted with family and moving twice.
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Rgds
David

 

If I can learn how to produce a passable butt weld, then most folks should be able to wire up a processor, drivers and coils and install a good enough map to drive it to a chassis dynamometer for fine tuning. If not, there's a big choice of companies that will do it for them. The hardest part for me on one of our cars is probably the lack of space for a trigger wheel on the front of the crank.
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The Chrysler TorqueFlite was probably the finest non electronic auto transmission ever built. The GM Traumatic (as we called it) was an awful transmission in SA conditions where it frequently dumped it's guts on the road. The British manufacturers had a bad habit of using poor Auto transmissions from the US. The Borg Warner DG (Detroit Gears) 250 was a rotten transmission at best.

 

I turned a shoulder on the front pulley, then cut the trigger wheel off a Ford Escort 1.9 and turned the inside diameter to match the pulley shoulder I cut. I made a slight interference and heat shrunk the trigger wheel onto the pulley. I made a bracket to hold the coilpack at the back of the head, it's hidden behind the air filter when everything is back together.