*New* Battery Drain thread...
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Joined: Nov 2011
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From: Australia
XJR,
is it ok that I just pulled the yellow relay? As far as I can tell also, the auto elec pulled the cables to disconnect from the bus (although if they did, why would that relay be so warm yesterday when I touched it ?)
I assume that is not something that will keep the network awake.
I really need someone here to have the proper scan tool. I've asked the auto elec to buy the Jag software for their new computer based OBD2 scan tool. I told him I would supplement the purchase. we'll see because I'm out of options (without blindly changing out the RECM and GEMs).
cheers
ps... I do have the backup sensors.
is it ok that I just pulled the yellow relay? As far as I can tell also, the auto elec pulled the cables to disconnect from the bus (although if they did, why would that relay be so warm yesterday when I touched it ?)
I assume that is not something that will keep the network awake.
I really need someone here to have the proper scan tool. I've asked the auto elec to buy the Jag software for their new computer based OBD2 scan tool. I told him I would supplement the purchase. we'll see because I'm out of options (without blindly changing out the RECM and GEMs).
cheers
ps... I do have the backup sensors.
Last edited by leightos; Dec 5, 2011 at 04:02 PM.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 976
From: Indianapolis, IN
XJR,
is it ok that I just pulled the yellow relay? As far as I can tell also, the auto elec pulled the cables to disconnect from the bus (although if they did, why would that relay be so warm yesterday when I touched it ?)
I assume that is not something that will keep the network awake.
I really need someone here to have the proper scan tool. I've asked the auto elec to buy the Jag software for their new computer based OBD2 scan tool. I told him I would supplement the purchase. we'll see because I'm out of options (without blindly changing out the RECM and GEMs).
cheers
ps... I do have the backup sensors.
is it ok that I just pulled the yellow relay? As far as I can tell also, the auto elec pulled the cables to disconnect from the bus (although if they did, why would that relay be so warm yesterday when I touched it ?)
I assume that is not something that will keep the network awake.
I really need someone here to have the proper scan tool. I've asked the auto elec to buy the Jag software for their new computer based OBD2 scan tool. I told him I would supplement the purchase. we'll see because I'm out of options (without blindly changing out the RECM and GEMs).
cheers
ps... I do have the backup sensors.
One other thing comes to mind. In the vicinity of the battery there should be a two wire lead that has a white connector. It will not be connected to anything. It usually comes out from behind the boot sill finisher. Find that and make sure the battery isn't sitting on it, or it hasn't gotten wet and corroded. I know that can cause high parasitic draw.
Baby steps...........you'll get there.
Cheers,
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From: Australia
thanks...yup, located and snipped that wire about 2 days ago.
well the funny thing is that the draw is intermittent. the car goes to sleep.....then wakes up after 8, 14, 22 hours.
replacing the AGM battery doesn't seem to help either.
Also...another thing I've not solved. Is the earthing point for the engine. Remember I had replaced the long motor in Aug...that's when this all started (I think). I've been battling this since Sept.
well the funny thing is that the draw is intermittent. the car goes to sleep.....then wakes up after 8, 14, 22 hours.
replacing the AGM battery doesn't seem to help either.
Also...another thing I've not solved. Is the earthing point for the engine. Remember I had replaced the long motor in Aug...that's when this all started (I think). I've been battling this since Sept.
Last edited by leightos; Dec 5, 2011 at 05:59 PM.
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Indianapolis, IN
The waking up after so many hours, that's a symptom of the voltage loss to the GECM and RECM module terminals I mentioned with the bulletins early on in this thread. You need to be methodical if you are going to get to the bottom of a problem like this. If no voltage loss is found, they need to be isolated individually as with the snipped wire and connector routine. There just won't be any shortcuts.
Cheers,
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From: Australia
yes, actually the auto elec had pulled it to inspect it last week. I read another post that just said to snip it. Its separated and insulated. There's been no change to the charactistics of this battery draw before or after the location of, and removal of the wire.
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From: Australia
Since I have no scan tool, and spent over $1000 troubleshooting w/ the auto elec (who has thrown up his hands) do I now just try replacing the RECM? GEM? Remember - the RECM wasn't warm, and I cant get at the GEM.
Last edited by leightos; Dec 5, 2011 at 06:12 PM.
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From: Cote d'Azur
If the drain happens quite quickly, surely whatever is using the power must get pretty warm. By rough calculation to drain 100Ah battery in 24h takes 50W of power, which should show as heat somewhere.
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From: Australia
I was wondering again if its the earthing strap - but, as it goes - a short in the car would probably be constant, not intermittent.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Cote d'Azur
If it happens let's say overnight and the battery is already dead when you next see it, what about leaving charger connected to keep the fault going on and possibly reveal itself by the heat? A bigger charger with amp display might be more suitable that a CTEK in this case.
I am just speculating based on what I know about electronics in general, I have quite limited knowledge about cars so far.
Joined: Sep 2010
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From: Indianapolis, IN
Again, I'm trying to help prevent your throwing money at just replacing parts and modules. I assume the wire you snipped is the one by the battery. That's good, it only causes trouble. I'm talking about diagnosing to pin down the fault. Go back to post 11 and follow it. That's the best way to eliminate possible causes of your dead battery. The only other option is to throw parts and money at it until you find something that stops it.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Thread Starter
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From: Australia
Again, I'm trying to help prevent your throwing money at just replacing parts and modules. I assume the wire you snipped is the one by the battery. That's good, it only causes trouble. I'm talking about diagnosing to pin down the fault. Go back to post 11 and follow it. That's the best way to eliminate possible causes of your dead battery. The only other option is to throw parts and money at it until you find something that stops it.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I am stressed as you can see. I've had to get jumps, borrow cars to work, run extension cords at night w/ my door open just to try and find the component. You can imagine I'm pulling out my hair (saves money on shampoo).
thanks...keep the suggestions coming. cheers,
Scott
UPDATE: XJR the tech guys looked into the forward harness quiescent draw. They didn't see anything in it. And the local Jag guys told them that it was a fault that would have only happened years ago.
Last edited by leightos; Dec 5, 2011 at 07:52 PM. Reason: UPDATE:
Troubleshooting is a lost art and its importance is often forgotten. Your situation is an unusual one that is not part of the norm. OBDII tool will offer information related to many situations but not all, electrical gremlins are one of them. I often find when I am too close to a problem I need to take a break and then return with a clear head to get back on track. This often takes time away and a few beers. We are all trying to help.
Take your time and stay on track you will not regret it, you are so close.
Take your time and stay on track you will not regret it, you are so close.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,114
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From: Indianapolis, IN
I'm trying to keep on a track where you don't need a dealer or someone with dealership equipment, and without muddying the waters any more. Buying a module to replace leaves you in a position where you need someone to configure it. Only a module that came from a car that was literally equipped/configured identically to yours would assure full and correct function.
The steps in the earlier post are the next course of action. If nothing turns up there then we have to move on to the door modules. They have to be eliminated individually after the RECM and GECM have been proven OK.
No generic scantool will be of any assistance here. There is only a very slim chance the Jaguar IDS would be of any value. This one will be a challenge.
Cheers,
The steps in the earlier post are the next course of action. If nothing turns up there then we have to move on to the door modules. They have to be eliminated individually after the RECM and GECM have been proven OK.
No generic scantool will be of any assistance here. There is only a very slim chance the Jaguar IDS would be of any value. This one will be a challenge.
Cheers,
Scott,
Maybe a solar charger would buy you some time to do the troubleshooting? Wouldn't be much help if it's bleeding down overnight but may preserve you a few starts in the evenings. Depends on your driving habits/requirements. Only other thing I can think of to buy you some time for trouble-shooting would be to fit a 2nd battery back there with a disconnect (maybe the solar charger keeping it up) then throw the switch to "connect" for start and drive (get some charging in) and disconnect when you park - the installed batt would keep all settings alive and spare you that trouble associated with disconnecting it(til it gets bled stone dead, anyway...) and you'd have a pre-positioned "jumper-battery" so-to-speak always at the ready. Of course, you'd need to mount it reasonalby solidly and vent it. Con of this is I believe I read earlier in this thread that in your location another batt is on the order of $400? ouch! but just one to mount securely (and vent) in the boot, not necessarily needing to be a grp 49 may be cheaper.
But if interested, Gus fitted a 1.5W solar:
Solar Battery Charger
whilst I went for the med. size option with a 5W:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...-s-type-64372/
15W is available if you can find room for a 36" X 12.5" flat rectangular panel.
Good luck. Hope you get it sorted, soon.
Maybe a solar charger would buy you some time to do the troubleshooting? Wouldn't be much help if it's bleeding down overnight but may preserve you a few starts in the evenings. Depends on your driving habits/requirements. Only other thing I can think of to buy you some time for trouble-shooting would be to fit a 2nd battery back there with a disconnect (maybe the solar charger keeping it up) then throw the switch to "connect" for start and drive (get some charging in) and disconnect when you park - the installed batt would keep all settings alive and spare you that trouble associated with disconnecting it(til it gets bled stone dead, anyway...) and you'd have a pre-positioned "jumper-battery" so-to-speak always at the ready. Of course, you'd need to mount it reasonalby solidly and vent it. Con of this is I believe I read earlier in this thread that in your location another batt is on the order of $400? ouch! but just one to mount securely (and vent) in the boot, not necessarily needing to be a grp 49 may be cheaper.
But if interested, Gus fitted a 1.5W solar:
Solar Battery Charger
whilst I went for the med. size option with a 5W:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...-s-type-64372/
15W is available if you can find room for a 36" X 12.5" flat rectangular panel.
Good luck. Hope you get it sorted, soon.
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From: Yorkshire, England
I agree that a scan tool has only a small chance of finding codes. What I'd want would be one that can be passive (i.e. sending no packets at all) on the bus (your car has only J1850 PWM aka SCP as a bus in this regard) but stay listening and then capture the first packets after a long silence. I hope IDS/SDD can do that (since it's an obvious requirement). I don't believe most tools are set up to do that (but they're cheap whereas IDS isn't).
The module that sends the very first packet should not be doing so. You'd then go right to that module to see why it does (check its inputs, check its functioning, its power & ground, etc).
The module that sends the very first packet should not be doing so. You'd then go right to that module to see why it does (check its inputs, check its functioning, its power & ground, etc).
Last edited by JagV8; Dec 6, 2011 at 02:13 AM.
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From: Australia
I'm not convinced reading codes will be much help in this instance, but it's possible.
The first thing you need to have your electrical guys do is read through these two bulletins. down after the required period so the battery is not run down.
The bulletin says to just connect a DVOM between a disconnected battery cable and the battery. I'm not fond of that method; I use a battery disconnect so I can hook it up so it starts and runs normally, then when I shut it down to test parasitic draw, I just have to connect my ammeter across the switch and open the switch. Then all current is going through the meter. One good trick is to set the car with the driver window down and the sunvisor pulled down. Shut the car down and remove the key, then open the visor mirror. The visor lights will stay on until the Switched System Relays drop out, about 45 minutes. If they go off as expected, the Switched System is working, if they don't, the hunt begins for the cause. I suspect yours is not shutting down correctly, so the lights never go out.
The most likely cause is power loss to one of the body modules, one front [GECM] and one rear [RECM]. They are both powered by the same fuse and BOTH, NOT JUST THE FRONT need to be checked for power equaling battery voltage like the one bulletin says. [Download the S1 S-Type electrical guide for pin numbers and wire colors, etc.]
If that proves out, the next most likely cause is one of those modules themselves. That means you have to isolate them ONE AT A TIME. That is not as easy as it sounds. Have your guys look at diagram figure 1.5, there is a connector bus that has a wire going to each module. That allows either one of those modules to power up the Switched System. [Terminal FH9-21 at the front and CA101-4 at the rear.] What I do is find a spot where each wire has a little slack and I snip the wire and put a shielded flat spade connector in. Set it up for another 45 minute power down and pull one of the connectors apart. If the visor lamps go out, that's your offender; if not, try the other one.
!
The first thing you need to have your electrical guys do is read through these two bulletins. down after the required period so the battery is not run down.
The bulletin says to just connect a DVOM between a disconnected battery cable and the battery. I'm not fond of that method; I use a battery disconnect so I can hook it up so it starts and runs normally, then when I shut it down to test parasitic draw, I just have to connect my ammeter across the switch and open the switch. Then all current is going through the meter. One good trick is to set the car with the driver window down and the sunvisor pulled down. Shut the car down and remove the key, then open the visor mirror. The visor lights will stay on until the Switched System Relays drop out, about 45 minutes. If they go off as expected, the Switched System is working, if they don't, the hunt begins for the cause. I suspect yours is not shutting down correctly, so the lights never go out.
The most likely cause is power loss to one of the body modules, one front [GECM] and one rear [RECM]. They are both powered by the same fuse and BOTH, NOT JUST THE FRONT need to be checked for power equaling battery voltage like the one bulletin says. [Download the S1 S-Type electrical guide for pin numbers and wire colors, etc.]
If that proves out, the next most likely cause is one of those modules themselves. That means you have to isolate them ONE AT A TIME. That is not as easy as it sounds. Have your guys look at diagram figure 1.5, there is a connector bus that has a wire going to each module. That allows either one of those modules to power up the Switched System. [Terminal FH9-21 at the front and CA101-4 at the rear.] What I do is find a spot where each wire has a little slack and I snip the wire and put a shielded flat spade connector in. Set it up for another 45 minute power down and pull one of the connectors apart. If the visor lamps go out, that's your offender; if not, try the other one.
!
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,114
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From: Indianapolis, IN
The two wires to test for CONSISTENT voltage that exactly matches the current battery voltage are at terminal FH59-6 [that's Connector FH59 Pin 6] for the GECM in the front, and terminal CA101-3 at the RECM in the boot. You'll need to put a voltmeter on those terminals and watch that the voltage never drops. After that 8 or 10 hours, when the visor lamps come on, check that voltage if it has dropped, that's a reason for the system to wake up, that should not happen. If the system woke up and that voltage still matched the battery voltage, the next step is to snip the one wire at each module and put a connector in so you can take them apart one at a time.
[there are connector and pin location pictures in the front of the wiring diagram to help find the correct wire]
Then we are back to the paragraph I wrote earlier:
If that proves out, the next most likely cause is one of those modules themselves. That means you have to isolate them ONE AT A TIME. That is not as easy as it sounds. Have your guys look at diagram figure 1.5, there is a connector bus that has a wire going to each module. That allows either one of those modules to power up the Switched System. [Terminal FH9-21 at the front and CA101-4 at the rear.] What I do is find a spot where each wire has a little slack and I snip the wire and put a shielded flat spade connector in. Set it up for another 45 minute power down and pull one of the connectors apart. If the visor lamps go out, [or in your case, the system never wakes up] that's your offender; if not, try the other one.
If the car never wakes up with one of those connectors pulled apart, then that is the failed module. If you STILL have the system waking up, then it is on to the door modules, disconnect them one at a time to see if it stays asleep with one disconnected.
Good luck!
[there are connector and pin location pictures in the front of the wiring diagram to help find the correct wire]
Then we are back to the paragraph I wrote earlier:
If that proves out, the next most likely cause is one of those modules themselves. That means you have to isolate them ONE AT A TIME. That is not as easy as it sounds. Have your guys look at diagram figure 1.5, there is a connector bus that has a wire going to each module. That allows either one of those modules to power up the Switched System. [Terminal FH9-21 at the front and CA101-4 at the rear.] What I do is find a spot where each wire has a little slack and I snip the wire and put a shielded flat spade connector in. Set it up for another 45 minute power down and pull one of the connectors apart. If the visor lamps go out, [or in your case, the system never wakes up] that's your offender; if not, try the other one.
If the car never wakes up with one of those connectors pulled apart, then that is the failed module. If you STILL have the system waking up, then it is on to the door modules, disconnect them one at a time to see if it stays asleep with one disconnected.
Good luck!
Last edited by xjrguy; Dec 6, 2011 at 08:47 AM.
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From: Australia
During my holiday, I disconnected the battery. It was disconnected for about 7 days. When I returned, I've noticed no more battery drain.
What I mean by that is that since my return, I've been using the visor light mirror method to observe when the car sleeps and when it awakes. I've driven the car to work the last 3 days and during my 12 hours shifts - i keep going out to check if the light comes back on (it turns off after 45 min as designed). Each day the light stays off during the whole 12 hours ...which is pretty good. I've been double checking by measuring the voltage of the battery when I go into work and come back out 12 hours later. I'm seeing about a 0.2V drop from about 12.85 to 12.65. That's fine.
I'm wondering if having the battery disconnected for 7 days did something to reset the modules or the ECU. I'm sure it means the capacitors probably are depleted. Don't know how long this will last.
cheers
Scott