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Daughter's 2007 S-Type 3L 95K miles dead in parking lot and towed home.
Found a wire from harness behind alternator that looks like it goes to starter solenoid was broke. See pic. I fixed wire and I'm sure its a good fix but car still acts like starter is dead. Turning key sucks power (lights dim) but nothing. No click or any sound. There is 12 volts at the starter.
What tests can I do without removing starter which I know is a pain?
go To to page 1593 in the manual. The pinpoint test are described there for the problem of none cranking engine.
The manual can be downloaded from jagrepair.com
Thanks but when i went site saw no manual with page numbers only one electric schematic saying there is constant power and key power which we all know? Do you have a better link, or can you just say if the solenoid can be tested in situ so I know what to buy or must I remove starter for diagnosis? When I fixed the wife that I showed broken it 4.6 volts on it which I bought was a bit strange. Battery power is good and replaced battery as precaution. The page I did find on that site mentioned there is a wire in the trunk that often gets broken from tire removal. I don't see anything like that. ALSO anyone know what the wire I fixed is as no other problems were evident before the started went dead.
Norri; Last night my daughter borrowed my XK8 to take to work and the oil cooler hose ruptured and we needed tow her home. Do you a simile link for the XK8 manual. I searched the site but seems there is no site index.
The Official Workshop Manual that I was given a link to for the S-Type is not linked from the jagrepair.com home page. There are links but not to the interactive manual link the S-Type as given me by Norri?? Really look at it. Norri's link is real and works but there would be no way to find that link by starting at the home page that I can find. Just need a similar link on that site but to the XK8 workshop manual.
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see it. Like the "real" links to the interactive manuals are hidden
Mike, from the home page look under " Electrical, OBD Codes,Tech Guide & Spec Book" click on "Jaguar XK8 XKR 1997-2006 " then " XK Vehicle Maintenance 1999 - 2000 " I think that's the one if not check out the other links, they are all accessible from the home page.
It does not look like he has a copy of the manual there I am afraid to say.
either you ask on the XK8 part of the forum or you will have to buy a copy from a site such as this https://www.emanualonline.com/Cars/Jaguar/XK.htm
I'm a little concerned about the damaged wire. Did something physically damage it, such as a piece of road debris flying up? Or was it overloaded electrically and melted?
Assuming (Danger! Danger!) the wiring has been restored to original, here's one way to check the starter. Please note these checks won't conclusively prove the starter is good. All it does is rule out some obvious faults.
Wiring diagrams here, see section 2.1 for the starter:
In the Front Power Distribution Box, check fuse F27.
Check the Starter Megafuse (400A), which I believe is near the battery. Can anybody confirm this?
Here's a close-up of the starter diagram, with some added comments. Note the one terminal I've labeled "X":
Here's a purloined image from Rock Auto, showing the starter solenoid terminals with added labels to match the close-up diagram above:
ST6, the big terminal furthest from the solenoid body, should have two large red wires connected to it. This terminal should have constant battery power.
PI306, the smaller terminal, is the small wire (GW) from the starter relay. When power is applied to PI306, the solenoid is commanded to engage and energize the starter with that battery power always present at ST6.
Terminal X is the name I gave to a handy point for troubleshooting.
Important note before doing anything else: FULLY CHARGE THE BATTERY. This is a very basic but important step. Please don't skip it. Always start any electrical troubleshooting with a fully charge battery.
Once the battery is fully charged (note how I keep repeating that), put your voltmeter leads on the battery posts while you try to start the engine. It's perfectly normal for the battery voltage to drop under the load of the starter. If the voltage drops below 10.0V:
1) The battery isn't fully charged.
or
2) The battery is defective and can't deliver the massive flow of current required to spin the starter.
or
3) The starter and/or cable run has a short to ground and is drawing current far in excess of what a good battery can deliver.
If the battery voltage stays above 10V during a start attempt, here are some resistance checks you can do on the starter itself. As previously mentioned, these checks won't guarantee the starter is bad, but will show some obvious faults. You don't have to disconnect the battery for these checks, but don't try to engage the starter.
1) Check the solenoid hold-in coil by measuring the resistance between PI306 and ground. I don't have exact specs, but am guessing somewhere around 10 or 15 ohms for the hold-in coil.
2) Check the solenoid pull-in coil by measuring the resistance between PI306 and X. Guessing again, but maybe 3 to 5 ohms. This coil is more powerful that the hold-in coil, so the resistance value for the pull-in coil should be less than in step 1.
3) Check the motor windings and the brushes by measuring the resistance between X and the starter case. This should be very low resistance, probably only a fraction of an ohm.
Run those quick tests and get back to us. There are more checks that can be done, but these steps are some basics to rule out first.
Thanks for the in-depth suggestions and here are results with a couple of other observations. I'm going to replace battery and try this agin but for now this is the update.
The fuse is good.
The relay in the trunk and the replay in engine bay both make noise when key is turned.
The BIG SURPRISE, when key cranked, while lights dim the battery did NOT drop any voltage.
Resistance X to case = 0.35 ohm
Resistance X to P103 = 1.0 ohm
Resistance P103 to chassis = about 3 ohm but jumped around.
The BIG SURPRISE, when key cranked, while lights dim the battery did NOT drop any voltage.
Making some big progress now! This is a classic symptom of a bad spot in a cable run that can only pass a small amount of current. The bad spot lets enough juice through for smaller loads, such as the headlights, radio, etc. But when you ask for several bazillion amps to spin the starter, the bad spot in the cable limits the flow. Restricted flow means the voltage doesn't drop at the battery.
Here's a guide I wrote for exactly this problem, at another forum I frequent:
Lots to read, but you can skip to the end of the first post for a quick recap. I swear by this test, and it is incredibly quick and easy. It will isolate the exact location of the fault within minutes.
To reach the starter from the battery, just rig up an extension for one of the test leads. The test wire doesn't have to be very heavy, as the meter itself draws very little current. At the Jaguar starter, put the meter lead on the X terminal I referenced earlier. This tests the entire positive cable run and the big contacts inside the solenoid. The instructions at the article were slightly different with the Ford starter, as that style doesn't have a solenoid on the starter itself. Don't forget to test the negative cable run, too.
Karl: Great thesis. But I did not do because I had already connected a second battery directly to the starter motor. +ve to the two red wires and -ve to frame near starter, with no effect. Does this mean it is the solenoid or the solenoid circuits that is at fault? Maybe the wire I "fixed" has a second break somewhere? Is there a way to test by directly giving power to the solenoid?
Is there a way to test by directly giving power to the solenoid?
Yes, but I didn't go into that yet because it has to be done very carefully.
A few warnings:
1) When you connect a test jumper to energize the solenoid, you'll probably get a spark. Make sure there are no gasoline leaks or fumes anywhere around the car. If you can smell gasoline, do NOT do this test.
2) With the spark, you also run the risk of the test jumper welding itself in place. More on that later.
3) I'm assuming (Danger! Danger!) you've got the car up on jackstands for access to the starter. When the starter spins the crankshaft and flywheel, and then when they stop, that's a lot of inertia to overcome in both directions. Expect the car to shake a little bit. The jackstands need to rock solid under the car. If not, it will be very messy for your survivors to extract your remains from under the car.
Here's how I'd recommend doing it:
Instead of using one test lead, use two. Use long test leads, maybe 2 or 3 feet long. That way you don't have to be under the car when you connect them. Also, should the spark cause the test leads to weld together, it's no big deal. Just tug on them and they will unclip from the starter.
To connect the leads, clip the end of one on solenoid terminal ST6. This is the big terminal with the 2 big red wires. This terminal should have 12V anytime the battery is connected. Clip one end of the other test lead to solenoid terminal PI306. This is the smaller terminal with the single smaller wire.
While you're at it, connect a voltmeter. Red lead to ST6, black lead to the starter case.
Crawl out from under the car and make sure the jackstands are still solid. The ignition should be off with the key removed. The transmission should be in Park and the handbrake set. Momentarily touch the two test leads together and the solenoid should energize and the starter should spin. Observe the voltmeter with the starter engaged. You should see a minimum of 10V. If so, the starter/solenoid are fine, the big cables are delivering the juice and the problem is in the control circuit to the solenoid.
01-20-2019, 05:13 PM
Can I Test Starter without removing?
