RIP - S Type R Engine may very well be dead.
#1
08-13-2013, 04:35 AM
RIP - S Type R Engine may very well be dead.
So - my tale of woe.
I was driving back over the picturesque mountains in Kerry last week. As I came over Moll's Gap*, the coolant low warning light came on. I checked the temperature gauge and it was showing that the engine was running in a normal temperature range.
I decided to keep going, but keep a close eye on the gauge, and get to a garage to top up the coolant.
Unfortunately, as I drove around Killarney, the engine stopped.
When I lifted the bonnet, the first thing I saw was that one of the pipes returning coolant to the coolant tank was no longer attached. On closer examination, the connection point on the tank had snapped off. I began to get quite worried, wondering for how long this had been happening - and thinking that there must have been some significant pressure in that tank for that to have happened - and worrying that I'd fried the engine.
About 40 minutes later, the engine started, but it was shaking and rattling and was clearly not at all healthy.
So, up on a truck, and all the way back home with the car - €400.
It is in the garage now, and the mechanic is telling me that I need a new engine. He says he can probably repair the engine itself, but the cost of diagnosing the faults, stripping and repairing the engine and then re-installing would exceed the costs of installing a new/reconditioned engine.
I am, as my non-technical language has probably revealed, fairly ignorant about the dark arts of engines and mechanics.
This is a bit of a disaster, as financially, this is not the best time to have to shell out a big chunk of cash.
Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
*(no pun intended - well, maybe a little).
I was driving back over the picturesque mountains in Kerry last week. As I came over Moll's Gap*, the coolant low warning light came on. I checked the temperature gauge and it was showing that the engine was running in a normal temperature range.
I decided to keep going, but keep a close eye on the gauge, and get to a garage to top up the coolant.
Unfortunately, as I drove around Killarney, the engine stopped.
When I lifted the bonnet, the first thing I saw was that one of the pipes returning coolant to the coolant tank was no longer attached. On closer examination, the connection point on the tank had snapped off. I began to get quite worried, wondering for how long this had been happening - and thinking that there must have been some significant pressure in that tank for that to have happened - and worrying that I'd fried the engine.
About 40 minutes later, the engine started, but it was shaking and rattling and was clearly not at all healthy.
So, up on a truck, and all the way back home with the car - €400.
It is in the garage now, and the mechanic is telling me that I need a new engine. He says he can probably repair the engine itself, but the cost of diagnosing the faults, stripping and repairing the engine and then re-installing would exceed the costs of installing a new/reconditioned engine.
I am, as my non-technical language has probably revealed, fairly ignorant about the dark arts of engines and mechanics.
This is a bit of a disaster, as financially, this is not the best time to have to shell out a big chunk of cash.
Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
*(no pun intended - well, maybe a little).
#2
08-13-2013, 05:04 AM
Welcome to the forum Cormac,
Ouch!
As you will now know only too well, the temperature gauges in Jaguars are useless and won't move before serious overheating has occurred.
I'd have expected some drama when you opened the bonnet in the way of clouds of steam. Did you lose a lot of coolant \ all the coolant?
Unfortunately, your mechanic's pessimism is likely to be well founded but a simple test before dismissing the engine as a very costly paperweight is worth trying. The Expansion Tank outlet has broken so you need a new Tank anyway. Fitting this, refilling with coolant and seeing if or how the engine runs will either confirm his opinion of the worst or give you an enormous sense of relief at a lucky escape.
If the worst case scenario is actually the case, options in descending order of cost are a new engine, a rebuild or a used replacement. If there's no used units available in Eire, you should be able to find one in England without much difficulty.
Good luck.
Graham
Ouch!
As you will now know only too well, the temperature gauges in Jaguars are useless and won't move before serious overheating has occurred.
I'd have expected some drama when you opened the bonnet in the way of clouds of steam. Did you lose a lot of coolant \ all the coolant?
Unfortunately, your mechanic's pessimism is likely to be well founded but a simple test before dismissing the engine as a very costly paperweight is worth trying. The Expansion Tank outlet has broken so you need a new Tank anyway. Fitting this, refilling with coolant and seeing if or how the engine runs will either confirm his opinion of the worst or give you an enormous sense of relief at a lucky escape.
If the worst case scenario is actually the case, options in descending order of cost are a new engine, a rebuild or a used replacement. If there's no used units available in Eire, you should be able to find one in England without much difficulty.
Good luck.
Graham
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Cormac (08-13-2013)
#3
08-13-2013, 05:51 AM
Thanks Graham.
I should have spent a lot more time reading this forum than I have. (Although I've been reading since I got my wounded baby two years ago).
I guess I need to get a new expansion tank straight away.
He suspects a blown head gasket, wrecked spark plugs, various other issues and possibly a cracked block (how likely is the latter?). Mind you - all this is without having taken out the engine and without having done anything except turn it on and listen.
Cormac.
I should have spent a lot more time reading this forum than I have. (Although I've been reading since I got my wounded baby two years ago).
I guess I need to get a new expansion tank straight away.
He suspects a blown head gasket, wrecked spark plugs, various other issues and possibly a cracked block (how likely is the latter?). Mind you - all this is without having taken out the engine and without having done anything except turn it on and listen.
Cormac.
Welcome to the forum Cormac,
Ouch!
As you will now know only too well, the temperature gauges in Jaguars are useless and won't move before serious overheating has occurred.
I'd have expected some drama when you opened the bonnet in the way of clouds of steam. Did you lose a lot of coolant \ all the coolant?
Unfortunately, your mechanic's pessimism is likely to be well founded but a simple test before dismissing the engine as a very costly paperweight is worth trying. The Expansion Tank outlet has broken so you need a new Tank anyway. Fitting this, refilling with coolant and seeing if or how the engine runs will either confirm his opinion of the worst or give you an enormous sense of relief at a lucky escape.
If the worst case scenario is actually the case, options in descending order of cost are a new engine, a rebuild or a used replacement. If there's no used units available in Eire, you should be able to find one in England without much difficulty.
Good luck.
Graham
Ouch!
As you will now know only too well, the temperature gauges in Jaguars are useless and won't move before serious overheating has occurred.
I'd have expected some drama when you opened the bonnet in the way of clouds of steam. Did you lose a lot of coolant \ all the coolant?
Unfortunately, your mechanic's pessimism is likely to be well founded but a simple test before dismissing the engine as a very costly paperweight is worth trying. The Expansion Tank outlet has broken so you need a new Tank anyway. Fitting this, refilling with coolant and seeing if or how the engine runs will either confirm his opinion of the worst or give you an enormous sense of relief at a lucky escape.
If the worst case scenario is actually the case, options in descending order of cost are a new engine, a rebuild or a used replacement. If there's no used units available in Eire, you should be able to find one in England without much difficulty.
Good luck.
Graham
#4
08-13-2013, 06:07 AM
#5
08-13-2013, 06:33 AM
Hi Cormac, as GGG has said, the first thing to do is try a new header tank.
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
Last edited by thebiglad; 08-13-2013 at 07:06 AM.
#6
08-13-2013, 08:48 AM
Thanks Big Lad.
Thanks also for the link!
Cormac.
Thanks also for the link!
Cormac.
Hi Cormac, as GGG has said, the first thing to do is try a new header tank.
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
#7
08-13-2013, 09:02 AM
Veteran Member
When you lose all of your coolant, there will be no overheating warning because there is no fluid over the coolant temperature sensor.
Unfortunately, the worst case scenario is the likely outcome here.
The moral is never ignore the low coolant warning....it does not differentiate between LOW coolant and NO coolant.
Unfortunately, the worst case scenario is the likely outcome here.
The moral is never ignore the low coolant warning....it does not differentiate between LOW coolant and NO coolant.
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#8
08-13-2013, 09:17 AM
You've got a Bonnie! You lucky fellow!
Hi Cormac, as GGG has said, the first thing to do is try a new header tank.
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
Buy a a new coolant header tank like one of these and fit it:
JAGUAR S TYPE COOLANT EXPANSION TANK C2Z13764 | eBay
Then buy the correct coolant and re-fill the coolant circuit. After that try the engine again - it may just work and it's a job you can do yourself, very straightforward. Then at least you'll know if the engine is re-recoverable or not.
Unfortunately too many mechanics are poor at diagnosis so they trump for "it'll new a complete new engine sir" bullshît.
Let's face it, what have you got to lose by trying the above - there is loads of advice ready and waiting, to help you to do this yourself if you are prepared to "have a go".
Dave
#9
08-13-2013, 09:38 AM
Thanks WhiteXKR,
In hindsight, I should have copped that any dramatic reduction in coolant was a major red flag anyway - because the only way there could be a dramatic reduction is if the system suddenly sprung a leak.
This is going to be an expensive lesson to learn.
It doesn't seem sensible that the temperature gauge becomes completely useless in the moment when it is of most use.
But either way, the gauge should have indicated that the engine was running at far too high a temperature before the pressure built to the extent that the tube connector broke.
Is there a long history of criticism of the gauges in Jaguars?
In hindsight, I should have copped that any dramatic reduction in coolant was a major red flag anyway - because the only way there could be a dramatic reduction is if the system suddenly sprung a leak.
This is going to be an expensive lesson to learn.
It doesn't seem sensible that the temperature gauge becomes completely useless in the moment when it is of most use.
But either way, the gauge should have indicated that the engine was running at far too high a temperature before the pressure built to the extent that the tube connector broke.
Is there a long history of criticism of the gauges in Jaguars?
When you lose all of your coolant, there will be no overheating warning because there is no fluid over the coolant temperature sensor.
Unfortunately, the worst case scenario is the likely outcome here.
The moral is never ignore the low coolant warning....it does not differentiate between LOW coolant and NO coolant.
Unfortunately, the worst case scenario is the likely outcome here.
The moral is never ignore the low coolant warning....it does not differentiate between LOW coolant and NO coolant.
#10
08-13-2013, 09:45 AM
I found this to be a very good explanation:
What You Need To Know About Overheating A Vehicle | Shade Tree Speed Shop - Automotive Repair and Performance in Denver Colorado
I am a little calmer now that I understand a bit more.
The odd thing is - my car had none of these symptoms apparent when running. It was serviced a few weeks back and was checked with the correct software two weeks ago for faults - and none appeared. So, it would seem that two weeks ago, it was running fine.
Dammit.
What You Need To Know About Overheating A Vehicle | Shade Tree Speed Shop - Automotive Repair and Performance in Denver Colorado
I am a little calmer now that I understand a bit more.
The odd thing is - my car had none of these symptoms apparent when running. It was serviced a few weeks back and was checked with the correct software two weeks ago for faults - and none appeared. So, it would seem that two weeks ago, it was running fine.
Dammit.
The first thing you must know in regards to a vehicle over heating is that most modern cars use dummy gauges. A dummy gauge is a type of gauge that only generally reflects the actual data. For example, the coolant temperature gauge will show cold, normal and hot, but will not show the many temperature fluctuations an engine goes through while driving. The problem with this type of gauge is that by the time the temperature gauge shows a hot reading, the engine has already reached a very high temperature, and has in many cases caused major damage to the engine.
Next you must understand the anatomy of a modern engine. Modern engines consist of a cylinder block, and one or two cylinder heads, depending on whether the motor is an in-line motor or a V’ed motor. Generally, an inline four-cylinder engine looks like this:
The cylinder head sits on top of the engine block and a cylinder head gasket seals the space between them.
Furthermore, most modern engines use an aluminum cylinder head and a cast iron engine block. Some engines, such as Subaru, use aluminum cylinder head and an aluminum engine block. The aluminum cylinder head is in many ways more efficient than the old style cast iron cylinder head.
The main draw back of an aluminum cylinder head is that when the cylinder heads becomes too hot, they easily warp. A cast iron cylinder head can be warped, but it must reach a much hotter temperature, and must reach that temperature many more times.
The warped head no longer has a proper mating surface in order to maintain a tight seal between itself and the engine block. Because the tight seal is lost, the cylinder head gasket eventually goes bad. The bad cylinder head gasket causes the vehicle to continue to overheat.
You see, the anatomy of a cylinder head gasket is such that there are many holes in it. Some holes are for the pistons to pass through, some for oil to pass through, and some for coolant to pass through. When the cylinder head gasket goes bad, it allows some of the exhaust gas to go from the cylinder area into the coolant. The exhaust gas is much hotter than the coolant, and also forces air into the cooling system. The combined effect of the hot gas and the resulting air pocket in the cooling system results in a vehicle that overheats, despite the otherwise proper cooling system.
Symptoms of a bad head gasket and or a warped cylinder head include:
Overheating while under load, cruising down the highway, or in stop and go traffic despite and otherwise working cooling system.
Rough idle at first start up after sitting for an extended period of time. While the vehicle is not running, coolant may drip into the combustion chamber and cause a misfire until that coolant is burned off.
White smoke out the tail pipe at first start up. Again, the coolant may drip into the combustion chamber while the vehicle is off, the burning of that coolant results in smoke.
Vehicle continually needing coolant added despite no visible leaks. The engine consumes the coolant and burns it; therefore it constantly needs to be topped off.
Excessive pressure in the cooling system while the engine is running. The same combustion force that drives the engine pushes the exhaust gas into the cooling system, resulting in very high pressure in the cooling system.
Continual boiling over and pushing fluid out the overflow reservoir. Because the exhaust gas is forced into the coolant, the pressure becomes so high that it forces the radiator cap to open and pushes excessive amounts of coolant into the overflow reservoir.
Hydrocarbons (a component of exhaust gas) in the cooling system.
Oil in the coolant, and coolant in the oil. If the cylinder head is warped badly enough, the coolant and oil will mix. This symptom is very rare, and only occurs in the most extreme case of a bad cylinder head gasket.
Here are the two worst over heats i have seen. An Audi that melted a piston, and a Subaru that melted the block!
A bad cylinder head gasket is costly to repair because major components of the engine must be dissembled. The intake and exhaust manifolds must be removed. In the case of overhead camshaft motors, the timing belt or chain must be removed. Lastly the cylinder head itself must be unbolted and removed from the engine block.
Once the cylinder head is removed from the engine block, it must be thoroughly cleaned and taken to a machine shop. The machine shop then inspects to see how much damage the heat has caused, because the valves and the valve seats may also warp due to heat. In the case of warped valves, not will the cylinder head need to be milled back to flat, but the valves may also need to be replaced.
Once the cylinder head has returned from the machine shop, the engine may be reassembled. The end result is a very labor intensive and expensive repair. The positive note being that an engine that has had the cylinder head gasket replace, and the cylinder head properly repaired, will run like a top.
Next you must understand the anatomy of a modern engine. Modern engines consist of a cylinder block, and one or two cylinder heads, depending on whether the motor is an in-line motor or a V’ed motor. Generally, an inline four-cylinder engine looks like this:
The cylinder head sits on top of the engine block and a cylinder head gasket seals the space between them.
Furthermore, most modern engines use an aluminum cylinder head and a cast iron engine block. Some engines, such as Subaru, use aluminum cylinder head and an aluminum engine block. The aluminum cylinder head is in many ways more efficient than the old style cast iron cylinder head.
The main draw back of an aluminum cylinder head is that when the cylinder heads becomes too hot, they easily warp. A cast iron cylinder head can be warped, but it must reach a much hotter temperature, and must reach that temperature many more times.
The warped head no longer has a proper mating surface in order to maintain a tight seal between itself and the engine block. Because the tight seal is lost, the cylinder head gasket eventually goes bad. The bad cylinder head gasket causes the vehicle to continue to overheat.
You see, the anatomy of a cylinder head gasket is such that there are many holes in it. Some holes are for the pistons to pass through, some for oil to pass through, and some for coolant to pass through. When the cylinder head gasket goes bad, it allows some of the exhaust gas to go from the cylinder area into the coolant. The exhaust gas is much hotter than the coolant, and also forces air into the cooling system. The combined effect of the hot gas and the resulting air pocket in the cooling system results in a vehicle that overheats, despite the otherwise proper cooling system.
Symptoms of a bad head gasket and or a warped cylinder head include:
Overheating while under load, cruising down the highway, or in stop and go traffic despite and otherwise working cooling system.
Rough idle at first start up after sitting for an extended period of time. While the vehicle is not running, coolant may drip into the combustion chamber and cause a misfire until that coolant is burned off.
White smoke out the tail pipe at first start up. Again, the coolant may drip into the combustion chamber while the vehicle is off, the burning of that coolant results in smoke.
Vehicle continually needing coolant added despite no visible leaks. The engine consumes the coolant and burns it; therefore it constantly needs to be topped off.
Excessive pressure in the cooling system while the engine is running. The same combustion force that drives the engine pushes the exhaust gas into the cooling system, resulting in very high pressure in the cooling system.
Continual boiling over and pushing fluid out the overflow reservoir. Because the exhaust gas is forced into the coolant, the pressure becomes so high that it forces the radiator cap to open and pushes excessive amounts of coolant into the overflow reservoir.
Hydrocarbons (a component of exhaust gas) in the cooling system.
Oil in the coolant, and coolant in the oil. If the cylinder head is warped badly enough, the coolant and oil will mix. This symptom is very rare, and only occurs in the most extreme case of a bad cylinder head gasket.
Here are the two worst over heats i have seen. An Audi that melted a piston, and a Subaru that melted the block!
A bad cylinder head gasket is costly to repair because major components of the engine must be dissembled. The intake and exhaust manifolds must be removed. In the case of overhead camshaft motors, the timing belt or chain must be removed. Lastly the cylinder head itself must be unbolted and removed from the engine block.
Once the cylinder head is removed from the engine block, it must be thoroughly cleaned and taken to a machine shop. The machine shop then inspects to see how much damage the heat has caused, because the valves and the valve seats may also warp due to heat. In the case of warped valves, not will the cylinder head need to be milled back to flat, but the valves may also need to be replaced.
Once the cylinder head has returned from the machine shop, the engine may be reassembled. The end result is a very labor intensive and expensive repair. The positive note being that an engine that has had the cylinder head gasket replace, and the cylinder head properly repaired, will run like a top.
#11
08-13-2013, 09:54 AM
And this is also very educational and very interesting:
AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Engine Thermostats, Fuel Milage and Over Heating
AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Engine Thermostats, Fuel Milage and Over Heating
Most folks realize an engine thermostat can cause a vehicle to overheat. Did you know thermostats are also one of the leading causes of poor fuel milage?
Engine thermostats perform three major functions
Most modern engines operate close to 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Below this operating temperature is considered cold and the engine needs more fuel to run properly. On older carbureted engines, a choke was used to add more fuel. With fuel injected engines the pulse-width of the fuel injector is increased. Increasing pulse-width also drastically decreases fuel milage. This is why it is desirable to reach operating temperature as quickly as possible.
When the engine is cold the thermostat blocks flow to the radiator and opens the bypass circuit. In this mode the water pump circulates coolant only inside the engine. The coolant is prevented from flowing through the radiator where it would be cooled. Instead coolant flows through the bypass and back to the water pump. The effect is a quick increase in engine temperature.
How an engine thermostat works
The thermostat is basically a temperature controlled valve. The spring loaded valve is attached to a small cylinder filled with thermal wax. As the engine warms up, coolant transfers heat to the wax-filled cylinder. The heat causes the cylinder to expand and pushes down on the spring loaded valve.
When the thermostat opens flow to the bypass port is blocked and flow to the radiator is enabled. The water pump now pushes coolant through the engine and out to the radiator, where the heat is removed. Lower temperature coolant leaves the radiator and circulates back to the water pump completing the cycle.
If the temperature begins to fall below the limit set by the thermostat the flow will be restricted until it rises to the proper level. In a well maintained cooling system the thermostat will last for many years.
As coolant ages, the additives that prevent corrosion are depleted. This causes a huge amount of damage to the system and can cause thermostats to stick. If the thermostat sticks open, the engine runs too cold and waste fuel.
Engine overheating
When a thermostat sticks closed the engine will overheat. Overheating causes cylinder heads to expand greatly. This has the effect of crushing the cylinder head gasket and can crack the head[s]. Pistons also expand and gall the cylinder walls. Overheating, even for a short while can severely damage the engine.
A non-working thermostat should be replaced with the exact temperature replacement specified for the vehicle. Removing the thermostat will NOT increase cooling. An engine without a thermostat will flow too much coolant to the front cylinders and may deprive coolant to the rear cylinders.
Operating an engine without a thermostat can cause severe hot spots that may not show up on the temperature gauge. The sensor for the gauge measures temperature only in a small part of the engine. Rear cylinders could be severely overheating and not be revealed on the temperature gauge.
Removing the thermostat can also cause erosion damage to the radiator and heater core. The increased velocity of the coolant flow can easily wear through the thin metal tubes. This is far worse in a dirty system, full of abrasives, from lack of care.
Testing a thermostat
Thermostats can easily be tested with simple household items, if they are suspected of causing a problem. First inspect the thermostat at room temperature. It should be fully closed. Heat a container of water to a temperature 25 degrees less than listed for the vehicle. When the temperature is reached, submerge the thermostat, using a piece of wire. If the thermostat is good, it should not open.
Next bring the temperature of the water to the temperature that is listed for the thermostat (i.e., 195 degrees on most vehicles.) Again submerge the thermostat and it should open immediately and fully.
Any thermostat that fails either test should be replaced. It is also a good idea to replace the thermostat when other cooling system work is being done that requires it to be removed. This is most important on vehicles with higher milage and less important on low milage engines.
If your fuel milage is significantly decreased or if your cooling system has not been properly maintained, the engine thermostat should be checked. This inexpensive component can save literally thousands in repair.
Engine thermostats perform three major functions
- Help an engine to reach operating temperature more quickly
- Help regulate engine temperature to prevent overheat
- Restrict flow to promote more even cooling
Most modern engines operate close to 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Below this operating temperature is considered cold and the engine needs more fuel to run properly. On older carbureted engines, a choke was used to add more fuel. With fuel injected engines the pulse-width of the fuel injector is increased. Increasing pulse-width also drastically decreases fuel milage. This is why it is desirable to reach operating temperature as quickly as possible.
When the engine is cold the thermostat blocks flow to the radiator and opens the bypass circuit. In this mode the water pump circulates coolant only inside the engine. The coolant is prevented from flowing through the radiator where it would be cooled. Instead coolant flows through the bypass and back to the water pump. The effect is a quick increase in engine temperature.
How an engine thermostat works
The thermostat is basically a temperature controlled valve. The spring loaded valve is attached to a small cylinder filled with thermal wax. As the engine warms up, coolant transfers heat to the wax-filled cylinder. The heat causes the cylinder to expand and pushes down on the spring loaded valve.
When the thermostat opens flow to the bypass port is blocked and flow to the radiator is enabled. The water pump now pushes coolant through the engine and out to the radiator, where the heat is removed. Lower temperature coolant leaves the radiator and circulates back to the water pump completing the cycle.
If the temperature begins to fall below the limit set by the thermostat the flow will be restricted until it rises to the proper level. In a well maintained cooling system the thermostat will last for many years.
As coolant ages, the additives that prevent corrosion are depleted. This causes a huge amount of damage to the system and can cause thermostats to stick. If the thermostat sticks open, the engine runs too cold and waste fuel.
Engine overheating
When a thermostat sticks closed the engine will overheat. Overheating causes cylinder heads to expand greatly. This has the effect of crushing the cylinder head gasket and can crack the head[s]. Pistons also expand and gall the cylinder walls. Overheating, even for a short while can severely damage the engine.
A non-working thermostat should be replaced with the exact temperature replacement specified for the vehicle. Removing the thermostat will NOT increase cooling. An engine without a thermostat will flow too much coolant to the front cylinders and may deprive coolant to the rear cylinders.
Operating an engine without a thermostat can cause severe hot spots that may not show up on the temperature gauge. The sensor for the gauge measures temperature only in a small part of the engine. Rear cylinders could be severely overheating and not be revealed on the temperature gauge.
Removing the thermostat can also cause erosion damage to the radiator and heater core. The increased velocity of the coolant flow can easily wear through the thin metal tubes. This is far worse in a dirty system, full of abrasives, from lack of care.
Testing a thermostat
Thermostats can easily be tested with simple household items, if they are suspected of causing a problem. First inspect the thermostat at room temperature. It should be fully closed. Heat a container of water to a temperature 25 degrees less than listed for the vehicle. When the temperature is reached, submerge the thermostat, using a piece of wire. If the thermostat is good, it should not open.
Next bring the temperature of the water to the temperature that is listed for the thermostat (i.e., 195 degrees on most vehicles.) Again submerge the thermostat and it should open immediately and fully.
Any thermostat that fails either test should be replaced. It is also a good idea to replace the thermostat when other cooling system work is being done that requires it to be removed. This is most important on vehicles with higher milage and less important on low milage engines.
If your fuel milage is significantly decreased or if your cooling system has not been properly maintained, the engine thermostat should be checked. This inexpensive component can save literally thousands in repair.
#12
08-13-2013, 10:08 AM
More belated learning
Over Heat, Under Heat, Or Somewhere In Between | Shade Tree Speed Shop - Automotive Repair and Performance in Denver Colorado
My, but this is an expensive lesson.
My, but this is an expensive lesson.
Vehicle over heating? Vehicle not heating up fast enough? Vehicle heats up just fine but you get no heat in the cabin? This post is just for you! If you have overheated your vehicle, also read this .
One of the first things to note is that the temperature gauge in the dash often does not show an accurate representation of the actual engine coolant temperature. As you drive your vehicle, the coolant temperature fluctuates regularly, and that is normal. In order to convince your average driver all is well, the temperature gauge will sit right in the middle of the gauge as long as the temperature is close to proper operating temperature. In order to known exactly where your coolant temperature actually runs, I recommend purchasing a scan tool such as this one made by Autolink.
This little device is relatively inexpensive, reads and clears codes, and also displays all your live data (on cars 1996 and later). Along with a scan tool, you will also need a basic instant read thermometer. One with a dial, or electronic display will work just fine.
Secondly, when attempting to make a repair to the heating and cooling system of a modern vehicle, you may run into a “Cooling system error” code. These codes are nondescript by nature. Basically, the manufacturer has run a whole lot of tests, and has determined what the normal coolant temperature should be in all situations. If at any point the engine control unit sees an engine coolant temperature that is outside of what it has been told is normal, it stores a generic “cooling system error” code.
Lastly, we must touch on what is normal operating temperature for the engine coolant. Operating temperature will vary depending on the ambient temperature. Furthermore, domestics generally run hotter than imports. A domestic will run somewhere around 208-230 degrees Ferinheight (98 – 110 degrees Celsius) . An import will run somewhere in the range of 185-205 degrees Ferinheight (85-95 degrees Celsius). If in doubt, you can look up normal operating temperature for the engine coolant. You can also find the temperature at which the thermostat should open, and the temperatures where the cooling fans turn on and turn off. All very handy information. That being said …..
One of the most common problems with a cooling system is air pockets. The coolant is moved around the engine based on the principal that liquids don’t compress. If there is air in the system, which compresses rather easily, the coolant will have a tendency to not circulate properly. Also, engine coolant temperature sensors have trouble reading air temperature. If an air pocket works it’s way around to the coolant temperature sensor, the sensor will most likely deliver a faulty reading to the engine control unit. Air pockets can cause over heating, drive-ability problems, or poor heat in the cabin.
The easiest way to remove air pockets form a cooling system is by filling them with an air lift.
The air lift is a wonderful device which uses compressed air to suck the air out of the cooling system, rendering a vacuum. Once a vacuum has been achieved inside the cooling system, coolant can be installed leaving VIRTUALLY no air in the cooling system. I stress virtually, because no air lift will remove all the air, so make sure to still top off the fluid and bleed any air bubbles.
Once the cooling system is full of coolant, the next step is to verify the radiator cap is in good condition. A radiator cap controls the pressure inside the cooling system. As the coolant heats up and expands, pressure builds inside the cooling system. As discussed before, a cooling system requires some pressure in order to circulate the coolant. Too much pressure and parts of the cooling system begin to fail. A radiator cap opens and closes as heat and pressure rises and falls, maintaining the proper level of pressure inside the cooling system. Furthermore, a faulty radiator cap will also leak coolant, causing an air pocket. I recommend replacing the radiator cap on a vehicle every spring. They are generally inexpensive, and nearly every radiator cap in service will fail a pressure test.
Another inexpensive and highly critical cooling system component is the thermostat. A thermostat looks a little like this …..
A thermostat is basically a heat controlled valve. Until the engine coolant temperature reaches operating temperature, you want the coolant to stay in the engine, in order to warm up more quickly. The thermostat closes the radiator off from the rest of the cooling system. When the engine coolant temperature reaches the proper temperature, the thermostat opens and allows coolant to flow through the radiator, and thus be cooled. I highly recommend putting a thermostat in a pot of water and heating the water to boiling. Seeing a working thermostat open up just do to heat, is like watching magic.
Do not alter the thermostat if your vehicle is overheating. If you replaced the thermostat, and the vehicle sill overheats, there is another problem. Do not remove, drill a hole in, or force the thermostat to stay open.
A faulty thermostat can cause over heating, under heating, poor gas mileage, poor heat in the cabin, check engine lights, or emission failures. If the thermostat stays open, or opens too early, the vehicle won’t reach the proper operating temperature. If the thermostat opens too late, or not not at all, the vehicle will over heat. Again, a fairly inexpensive part. I recommend replacing the thermostat if the car has ever been overheated, and every few years just as a part of maintenance.
Next up, you’ll want to confirm your engine coolant temperature sensors are all working. Most modern vehicles use two engine coolant temperature sensors, one for the gauge and and one for the computer. Use a scan tool to confirm the engine coolant temperature sensor is reading correctly. If the computer does not know the vehicle is running hot, it may never turn the cooling fans on.
Speaking of cooling fans, make sure the are working. Most modern cars have ditched the old drive belt driven fans for a more fuel efficient electric fan. An easy test if the fans themselves work is to turn the air conditioning on. Modern cars kick the fan on any time the A/C compressor is on. If the vehicle is over heating, and the fans are not on, you’ll need to run down the electrical system and find out why. That is unless you have a hydraulic power cooling fan. Some vehicles use the fluid from the power steering system to turn the fan. Make sure the power steering system is full and working properly, and then run down an electrical checklist. If you have an old fashioned fan clutch, make sure it’s in good shape.
An obviously key component to the whole cooling system is the radiator. Sometimes the radiator will become plugged. A plugged radiator won’t circulate coolant.
Sometimes a radiator will not be plugged, but will be calcified, and therefore not exchanging heat. Basically, a thick substance can coat all the walls of the tubes of the radiator, and that substance will insulate, rather than radiating heat. You can often see this coating if you look into the radiator. You should also be able to feel hot air coming off the radiator. Sometime the front of the radiator will become coated in dirt and such. The coating on the front of the radiator will prevent air form flowing through the radiator and thus prevent proper cooling.
The last, and most costly cause of an overheating condition is a bad head gasket. When the head gasket fails, exhaust gas is forced into the cooling system, and the vehicle just over heats.
But what is your vehicle doesn’t overheat, it just doesn’t produce heat in the cabin? First and foremost, ensure the cooling system is full, with no air pockets, and that the thermostat stays closed long enough to reach operating temperature.
Next you’ll want to check your heater core. The heater core looks just like a small radiator, because it is. The heater core radiates heat, just like a radiator and then a fan blows that heated air through the ducts and into the cabin. Check out this picture of a heater box split in half, the heater fan is on the right, the heater core is on the left, and the A/C core is in the middle.
Just like a radiator, the heater core can become plugged or coated on the inside. If accessible, test the temperature of the hoses going into and out of the heater core. Normally, if the heater system is working, both hoses will be hot (as hot as the coolant in the engine) but a little less hot on one side (because heat has been transfered from the coolant, through the heater core to the air in the heater ducts). If one hose is hot and the other is COLD, the heater core is plugged, or coolant is not circulating through it due to an air bubble or another problem (VW/ AUDI are terrible for the water pump impeller coming off). If both hoses are hot, but no heat comes out of the heater, the heater core is most likely not transferring heat.
While you are checking hoses in and out of the heater core, look for a shut off valve. Many vehicles use a coolant shut off valve in the supply hose to the heater core. The idea here is to close the coolant of from the heater core when heat is not desired. Many vehicles that have these valves will use a cable to open and close the valve. Vehicles with dual climate control will often have two valves that open and close separately to help maintain independent temperatures, each being controlled electronically.
You could also have a heater fan that doesn’t work, or a plugged cabin air filter. The heater fans, control switched and resistors all go out regularly, all of which would result in an heater fan that will not work (or works only on high). I have also seen cabin air filters so dirty that nearly no air will pass through them, and thus not allowing any air to pass through the heater core and out of the ducts.
Lastly, you could have a problem with the blend doors inside the heater box. Doors inside the air duct system open and close to divert air though the heater core, or to bypass it. If the air is not being diverted through the heater core, then you won’t get any heat.
happy motoring.
One of the first things to note is that the temperature gauge in the dash often does not show an accurate representation of the actual engine coolant temperature. As you drive your vehicle, the coolant temperature fluctuates regularly, and that is normal. In order to convince your average driver all is well, the temperature gauge will sit right in the middle of the gauge as long as the temperature is close to proper operating temperature. In order to known exactly where your coolant temperature actually runs, I recommend purchasing a scan tool such as this one made by Autolink.
This little device is relatively inexpensive, reads and clears codes, and also displays all your live data (on cars 1996 and later). Along with a scan tool, you will also need a basic instant read thermometer. One with a dial, or electronic display will work just fine.
Secondly, when attempting to make a repair to the heating and cooling system of a modern vehicle, you may run into a “Cooling system error” code. These codes are nondescript by nature. Basically, the manufacturer has run a whole lot of tests, and has determined what the normal coolant temperature should be in all situations. If at any point the engine control unit sees an engine coolant temperature that is outside of what it has been told is normal, it stores a generic “cooling system error” code.
Lastly, we must touch on what is normal operating temperature for the engine coolant. Operating temperature will vary depending on the ambient temperature. Furthermore, domestics generally run hotter than imports. A domestic will run somewhere around 208-230 degrees Ferinheight (98 – 110 degrees Celsius) . An import will run somewhere in the range of 185-205 degrees Ferinheight (85-95 degrees Celsius). If in doubt, you can look up normal operating temperature for the engine coolant. You can also find the temperature at which the thermostat should open, and the temperatures where the cooling fans turn on and turn off. All very handy information. That being said …..
One of the most common problems with a cooling system is air pockets. The coolant is moved around the engine based on the principal that liquids don’t compress. If there is air in the system, which compresses rather easily, the coolant will have a tendency to not circulate properly. Also, engine coolant temperature sensors have trouble reading air temperature. If an air pocket works it’s way around to the coolant temperature sensor, the sensor will most likely deliver a faulty reading to the engine control unit. Air pockets can cause over heating, drive-ability problems, or poor heat in the cabin.
The easiest way to remove air pockets form a cooling system is by filling them with an air lift.
The air lift is a wonderful device which uses compressed air to suck the air out of the cooling system, rendering a vacuum. Once a vacuum has been achieved inside the cooling system, coolant can be installed leaving VIRTUALLY no air in the cooling system. I stress virtually, because no air lift will remove all the air, so make sure to still top off the fluid and bleed any air bubbles.
Once the cooling system is full of coolant, the next step is to verify the radiator cap is in good condition. A radiator cap controls the pressure inside the cooling system. As the coolant heats up and expands, pressure builds inside the cooling system. As discussed before, a cooling system requires some pressure in order to circulate the coolant. Too much pressure and parts of the cooling system begin to fail. A radiator cap opens and closes as heat and pressure rises and falls, maintaining the proper level of pressure inside the cooling system. Furthermore, a faulty radiator cap will also leak coolant, causing an air pocket. I recommend replacing the radiator cap on a vehicle every spring. They are generally inexpensive, and nearly every radiator cap in service will fail a pressure test.
Another inexpensive and highly critical cooling system component is the thermostat. A thermostat looks a little like this …..
A thermostat is basically a heat controlled valve. Until the engine coolant temperature reaches operating temperature, you want the coolant to stay in the engine, in order to warm up more quickly. The thermostat closes the radiator off from the rest of the cooling system. When the engine coolant temperature reaches the proper temperature, the thermostat opens and allows coolant to flow through the radiator, and thus be cooled. I highly recommend putting a thermostat in a pot of water and heating the water to boiling. Seeing a working thermostat open up just do to heat, is like watching magic.
Do not alter the thermostat if your vehicle is overheating. If you replaced the thermostat, and the vehicle sill overheats, there is another problem. Do not remove, drill a hole in, or force the thermostat to stay open.
A faulty thermostat can cause over heating, under heating, poor gas mileage, poor heat in the cabin, check engine lights, or emission failures. If the thermostat stays open, or opens too early, the vehicle won’t reach the proper operating temperature. If the thermostat opens too late, or not not at all, the vehicle will over heat. Again, a fairly inexpensive part. I recommend replacing the thermostat if the car has ever been overheated, and every few years just as a part of maintenance.
Next up, you’ll want to confirm your engine coolant temperature sensors are all working. Most modern vehicles use two engine coolant temperature sensors, one for the gauge and and one for the computer. Use a scan tool to confirm the engine coolant temperature sensor is reading correctly. If the computer does not know the vehicle is running hot, it may never turn the cooling fans on.
Speaking of cooling fans, make sure the are working. Most modern cars have ditched the old drive belt driven fans for a more fuel efficient electric fan. An easy test if the fans themselves work is to turn the air conditioning on. Modern cars kick the fan on any time the A/C compressor is on. If the vehicle is over heating, and the fans are not on, you’ll need to run down the electrical system and find out why. That is unless you have a hydraulic power cooling fan. Some vehicles use the fluid from the power steering system to turn the fan. Make sure the power steering system is full and working properly, and then run down an electrical checklist. If you have an old fashioned fan clutch, make sure it’s in good shape.
An obviously key component to the whole cooling system is the radiator. Sometimes the radiator will become plugged. A plugged radiator won’t circulate coolant.
Sometimes a radiator will not be plugged, but will be calcified, and therefore not exchanging heat. Basically, a thick substance can coat all the walls of the tubes of the radiator, and that substance will insulate, rather than radiating heat. You can often see this coating if you look into the radiator. You should also be able to feel hot air coming off the radiator. Sometime the front of the radiator will become coated in dirt and such. The coating on the front of the radiator will prevent air form flowing through the radiator and thus prevent proper cooling.
The last, and most costly cause of an overheating condition is a bad head gasket. When the head gasket fails, exhaust gas is forced into the cooling system, and the vehicle just over heats.
But what is your vehicle doesn’t overheat, it just doesn’t produce heat in the cabin? First and foremost, ensure the cooling system is full, with no air pockets, and that the thermostat stays closed long enough to reach operating temperature.
Next you’ll want to check your heater core. The heater core looks just like a small radiator, because it is. The heater core radiates heat, just like a radiator and then a fan blows that heated air through the ducts and into the cabin. Check out this picture of a heater box split in half, the heater fan is on the right, the heater core is on the left, and the A/C core is in the middle.
Just like a radiator, the heater core can become plugged or coated on the inside. If accessible, test the temperature of the hoses going into and out of the heater core. Normally, if the heater system is working, both hoses will be hot (as hot as the coolant in the engine) but a little less hot on one side (because heat has been transfered from the coolant, through the heater core to the air in the heater ducts). If one hose is hot and the other is COLD, the heater core is plugged, or coolant is not circulating through it due to an air bubble or another problem (VW/ AUDI are terrible for the water pump impeller coming off). If both hoses are hot, but no heat comes out of the heater, the heater core is most likely not transferring heat.
While you are checking hoses in and out of the heater core, look for a shut off valve. Many vehicles use a coolant shut off valve in the supply hose to the heater core. The idea here is to close the coolant of from the heater core when heat is not desired. Many vehicles that have these valves will use a cable to open and close the valve. Vehicles with dual climate control will often have two valves that open and close separately to help maintain independent temperatures, each being controlled electronically.
You could also have a heater fan that doesn’t work, or a plugged cabin air filter. The heater fans, control switched and resistors all go out regularly, all of which would result in an heater fan that will not work (or works only on high). I have also seen cabin air filters so dirty that nearly no air will pass through them, and thus not allowing any air to pass through the heater core and out of the ducts.
Lastly, you could have a problem with the blend doors inside the heater box. Doors inside the air duct system open and close to divert air though the heater core, or to bypass it. If the air is not being diverted through the heater core, then you won’t get any heat.
happy motoring.
#13
08-13-2013, 10:20 AM
Senior Member
Cormac, I'm really sorry to hear about your problem. When I bought my STR 18 months ago, I had already done a lot of reading on this forum about preventive maintenance. However, one of the few things I did not pick up was the fact that the temp gauge does not show the difference between LOW coolant and NO coolant. Two months later, a few miles away from home, sure enough, saw the Low Coolant message. Drove home very gently, found almost exactly the same hose problem that you had. Damn, was I ever lucky, engine was OK.
While it may not be as likely with a new car, with an expensive used car like a Jaguar, it's critical to know that there is a problem with the cooling system BEFORE the engine is about to be destroyed. A temperature gauge that slowly moves from normal (185F) into the red zone (210F) would have been a great help.
Now, I monitor coolant temperature with an ODBII Ultragauge, and pay little or no attention to the OEM temperature gauge except at start-up time.
While it may not be as likely with a new car, with an expensive used car like a Jaguar, it's critical to know that there is a problem with the cooling system BEFORE the engine is about to be destroyed. A temperature gauge that slowly moves from normal (185F) into the red zone (210F) would have been a great help.
Now, I monitor coolant temperature with an ODBII Ultragauge, and pay little or no attention to the OEM temperature gauge except at start-up time.
#14
08-13-2013, 10:43 AM
Hi Robin,
I'd seen people talk about that Ultragauge - but being so ignorant of things mechanical, I found it interesting but didn't realise how important it was about to become to me.
Ah well. Noone died.
The thing now is to try to get matters sorted.
Cormac.
I'd seen people talk about that Ultragauge - but being so ignorant of things mechanical, I found it interesting but didn't realise how important it was about to become to me.
Ah well. Noone died.
The thing now is to try to get matters sorted.
Cormac.
Cormac, I'm really sorry to hear about your problem. When I bought my STR 18 months ago, I had already done a lot of reading on this forum about preventive maintenance. However, one of the few things I did not pick up was the fact that the temp gauge does not show the difference between LOW coolant and NO coolant. Two months later, a few miles away from home, sure enough, saw the Low Coolant message. Drove home very gently, found almost exactly the same hose problem that you had. Damn, was I ever lucky, engine was OK.
While it may not be as likely with a new car, with an expensive used car like a Jaguar, it's critical to know that there is a problem with the cooling system BEFORE the engine is about to be destroyed. A temperature gauge that slowly moves from normal (185F) into the red zone (210F) would have been a great help.
Now, I monitor coolant temperature with an ODBII Ultragauge, and pay little or no attention to the OEM temperature gauge except at start-up time.
While it may not be as likely with a new car, with an expensive used car like a Jaguar, it's critical to know that there is a problem with the cooling system BEFORE the engine is about to be destroyed. A temperature gauge that slowly moves from normal (185F) into the red zone (210F) would have been a great help.
Now, I monitor coolant temperature with an ODBII Ultragauge, and pay little or no attention to the OEM temperature gauge except at start-up time.
#15
08-13-2013, 10:46 AM
Anyone have some feedback on this supplier?
Jaguar Used & Reconditioned Engines - Engine Solutions Ltd, Colchester, Essex.
They seem to be offering a reasonable price - although, never having experienced this before, I've no idea whether or not this is a good price.
They seem to be offering a reasonable price - although, never having experienced this before, I've no idea whether or not this is a good price.
#16
08-13-2013, 11:03 AM
You did not see any steam or any coolant when you opened the hood?
Was the engine completely dry?
Which hose was missing? The two small ones on top really don't do anything but vent air back to the tank. There is a large hose under the tank retained by an odd wire clip. This is the one that will roast the engine quick if it comes off. Was that one still attached?
At least play around a bit with it. Your mechanic made a few strange comments because the spark plugs really don't care if the engine over heats. Most likely the head gasket will fail. Very unlikely the block is broken but it is possible.
Is the engine leaking any coolant after the tank is repaired?
Is there coolant in the oil?
Let us know what you find.
.
.
.
Was the engine completely dry?
Which hose was missing? The two small ones on top really don't do anything but vent air back to the tank. There is a large hose under the tank retained by an odd wire clip. This is the one that will roast the engine quick if it comes off. Was that one still attached?
At least play around a bit with it. Your mechanic made a few strange comments because the spark plugs really don't care if the engine over heats. Most likely the head gasket will fail. Very unlikely the block is broken but it is possible.
Is the engine leaking any coolant after the tank is repaired?
Is there coolant in the oil?
Let us know what you find.
.
.
.
The following users liked this post:
Cormac (08-13-2013)
#17
08-13-2013, 11:11 AM
No steam at all. But some coolant was around the tip of the tank where the connector had broken.
Yes.
The comment about the plugs might have been my misunderstanding.
There is a bit of a language gap involved here. The usual guy I deal with is away on holidays.
I will check this and report back.
I will check this and report back.
Wilco.
Thanks a million for your interest!
#18
08-13-2013, 01:25 PM
Veteran Member
The problem with the Jags as WhiteXKR mentioned is that when they LOSE coolant, there is no coolant by the coolant temp sensors. All the gauges and fancy OBDII do dads in the world will not save you bc they all read the same coolant temperature sensor, that ISNT getting coolant.
He had a similar problem with his.
The car will shut off to save itself IF it gets too hot and realizes it. But the low coolant light may be your only warning.
If you see coolant in your driveway, smell coolant under the hood etc stop and look. If you get a low coolant warning, top it up and see if it goes away. A small leak can turn into a big leak in a hurry, and these motors are unforgiving.
Take care,
George
He had a similar problem with his.
The car will shut off to save itself IF it gets too hot and realizes it. But the low coolant light may be your only warning.
If you see coolant in your driveway, smell coolant under the hood etc stop and look. If you get a low coolant warning, top it up and see if it goes away. A small leak can turn into a big leak in a hurry, and these motors are unforgiving.
Take care,
George
#19
08-13-2013, 06:53 PM
Senior Member
Depending on the rate of loss of coolant. Sounds like a sensor position problem, but I have never before owned a car with a coolant temp gauge that behaved like that. Jag might as well have used 3 led lights, blue for cold, green for everything else and red for "you're a goner anytime soon".
The following users liked this post:
Cormac (08-14-2013)
#20
08-14-2013, 02:02 AM
Veteran Member
The following users liked this post:
Cormac (08-14-2013)